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-   -   Roger's finger 'stuff' (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/29038-rogers-finger-stuff.html)

Toadman15241 Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:17pm
I think a part of the story that should get some more play on this board is the action of Marquez. He went over and talked to Steve Palermo during the game to get instruction on how to handle the situation. Why not consult the rest of your crew and make a decision? I don't like going to the "higher ups" in the middle of a game. It sets a bad precedent.

jicecone Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toadman15241
I think a part of the story that should get some more play on this board is the action of Marquez. He went over and talked to Steve Palermo during the game to get instruction on how to handle the situation. Why not consult the rest of your crew and make a decision? I don't like going to the "higher ups" in the middle of a game. It sets a bad precedent.
Yea, I know what you mean.

The LAST World Series I worked they called me over 3 times, and I just ignored them.

I showed them who was in charge!

Dave Hensley Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Giaco
This is just speculation but here's what I think happened. The Cardinals noticed something on Roger's pitching hand so LaRussa brought it up to the attention of HP umpire Alfonso Marquez. Fonzie probably asked if he wanted him to confront Rogers to see exactly what it was. LaRussa, not wanting to "disrespect" Leyland, probably just told Marquez that wasn't necessary but whatever it was, to make sure it's gone by the next time he comes out to pitch. Thus, Marquez told Rogers as he was coming off the field "hey Kenny, I don't know what that brown crap is on your hand, but do me a favor and get rid of that stain by the next time you come out here"

You have to remember, umpires don't go looking for boogers unless they have to. They are not going to accuse a player of cheating unless a member of the opposing team brings it up. If LaRussa wanted to make a big deal about it - he could have forced the umpires to go inspect the hand. However, if you going to call someone out like that, you better be sure that he is guilty of something or else it could blow up in your face. LaRussa, probably not wanting to take that chance, just asked Marquez to have Rogers clean his hands. Rogers did that and still shut them out over the next 7 innings - that's why LaRussa said it was no big deal.

However, if LaRussa would have asked the umpires to check out the hand for a foreign substance, Crew Chief Randy Marsh would have been put in a no win situation and probably would have been forced to eject Rogers if indeed, there was pinetar on his hand. That would have changed the entire game but LaRussa, not the umpires, chose not to do that.
My speculation was right along those same lines. It logically explains pretty much everything we saw.

cloverdale Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:41am
another game another day
 
it dismays me that rogers pitching perfprmances in the post season has come down to his "posssible cheating". He cleaned the hand and went out a pitched another 7 innings which left those facing him clueless as to what to do...lets just wait and see... if we will get to see him another day in this series with clean hands, who knows he might just pitch another gem.

LMan Tue Oct 24, 2006 08:35am
From the Detriot News:

ST. LOUIS -- Clean it up -- or else.

That was the message St. Louis manager Tony La Russa sent after FOX television cameras revealed some type of substance on the pitching hand of Detroit starter Kenny Rogers during the first inning of Game 2 of the World Series on Sunday.

La Russa could have gone further and not just issue his version of a warning. He could have asked the umpires to check Rogers with hopes that if the veteran left-hander indeed was doing something illegal, there could be a suspension for the rest of the series.

"I decided that I was not going to be part of the (garbage) where I was going to ask the umpire to go to the mound and undress the pitcher," La Russa said Monday during a workout day before Game 3 tonight at Busch Stadium. "I alerted (plate umpire Alfonso Marquez).

"I said, 'I hope it gets fixed. If it doesn't get fixed, then I'll take the next step.'

"I'm sure there are fans of ours and maybe teammates or whoever, people in the organization, that said, 'You should have gone to the mound.' (The umpires) have to get a request (from the manager). They don't act on their own.

"I said, 'I don't like this stuff, let's get it fixed. If it gets fixed, let's play the game.' It got fixed, in my opinion, and we never hit the guy."

mbyron Tue Oct 24, 2006 01:18pm
MLB managers are always controversial figures, and La Russa has had his idiot moments over a long career. But on the biggest stage in baseball, he showed a lot of class, and that counts for something.

Maybe Rogers was cheating, and maybe not. But if La Russa gets into it, then it becomes a different kind of controversy. In the event, any unfair advantage was eliminated, and the Cards still couldn't win.

La Russa's words, "If it gets fixed, let's play the game," demonstrate that he's got his priorities straight. It's about playing the game, not wheedling every possible advantage out of a situation.

PeteBooth Tue Oct 24, 2006 03:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sal Giaco
This is just speculation but here's what I think happened. The Cardinals noticed something on Roger's pitching hand so LaRussa brought it up to the attention of HP umpire Alfonso Marquez. Fonzie probably asked if he wanted him to confront Rogers to see exactly what it was. LaRussa, not wanting to "disrespect" Leyland, probably just told Marquez that wasn't necessary but whatever it was, to make sure it's gone by the next time he comes out to pitch. Thus, Marquez told Rogers as he was coming off the field "hey Kenny, I don't know what that brown crap is on your hand, but do me a favor and get rid of that stain by the next time you come out here"

You have to remember, umpires don't go looking for boogers unless they have to. They are not going to accuse a player of cheating unless a member of the opposing team brings it up. If LaRussa wanted to make a big deal about it - he could have forced the umpires to go inspect the hand. However, if you going to call someone out like that, you better be sure that he is guilty of something or else it could blow up in your face. LaRussa, probably not wanting to take that chance, just asked Marquez to have Rogers clean his hands. Rogers did that and still shut them out over the next 7 innings - that's why LaRussa said it was no big deal.

However, if LaRussa would have asked the umpires to check out the hand for a foreign substance, Crew Chief Randy Marsh would have been put in a no win situation and probably would have been forced to eject Rogers if indeed, there was pinetar on his hand. That would have changed the entire game but LaRussa, not the umpires, chose not to do that.


Sal, I agree with your assessment and IMO the reason LaRussa didn't have the umpires inspect the ball is because he and Tiger Manager Jim Leland are the best of friends.

If the manager was say good ole Bobby V of the Mets, it's my gut LaRussa would have had the umpires inspect the ball and EJ the pitcher.

My question is this?

Did Joe Torre notice anything? It's hard to believe that Rogers did this for the FIRST time and no-one other than LaRussa found out about it.

Pete Booth

tjones1 Tue Oct 24, 2006 05:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeteBooth
Did Joe Torre notice anything? It's hard to believe that Rogers did this for the FIRST time and no-one other than LaRussa found out about it.
Well, they've already showed pictures from the ALDS with it in the same spot. My guess is that the Cardinals were reviewing game film and saw it. JMO, though. You can bet if this game goes 6, the cameras and everything will be on Roger's whole body looking for something. Guess it goes to show that pay back is a bi*ch! :)

SAump Tue Oct 24, 2006 07:12pm
Who collects the "vaseballs" and where are they now?

GarthB Tue Oct 24, 2006 07:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron
MLB managers are always controversial figures, and La Russa has had his idiot moments over a long career. But on the biggest stage in baseball, he showed a lot of class, and that counts for something.

Maybe Rogers was cheating, and maybe not. But if La Russa gets into it, then it becomes a different kind of controversy. In the event, any unfair advantage was eliminated, and the Cards still couldn't win.

La Russa's words, "If it gets fixed, let's play the game," demonstrate that he's got his priorities straight. It's about playing the game, not wheedling every possible advantage out of a situation.
You're giving LaRussa far too much credit. I believe his low key approach has more to do with Leyland knowing where the bodies are buried in St. Louis side of the field. Leyland worked with LaRussa.

LaRussa's skirt isn't all that clean. If he had come out and demanded a cavity search of Rogers, Leyland would have come out and the St, Louis pitchers, or the source of their goo, would be subjected to the same treatment.

LaRussa practically admitted this with a comment that basically said that everyone was looking for an edge and as along as it didn't go too far, it was okay.

mbyron Tue Oct 24, 2006 07:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
You're giving LaRussa far too much credit. I believe his low key approach has more to do with Leyland knowing where the bodies are buried in St. Louis side of the field. LaRussa's skirt isn't all that clean.

If LaRussa had come out and demanded a cavity search of Rogers, Leyland would have come out and the the St, Louis pitchers, or the source of their goo, would be subjected to the same treatment.

LaRussa practically admitted this with a comment that basically said that everyone was looking for an edge and as along as it didn't go too far, it was okay.
I'm so disillusioned. I hope that you're wrong: the comment you mention did not appear in the earlier post. Where did you see or hear him say that? (I'm curious, not denying what you say.)

A couple things are hard to square with your interpretation: (1) why is Leyland different from any other manager? Surely there aren't any secrets among the grizzled veterans. (2) If LaRussa were motivated as you say, why bring up the matter at all? Doesn't he run the risk of escalation merely from mentioning it to the umpires?

SAump Tue Oct 24, 2006 08:23pm
Here is 1 of many
 
This article confirms what LaRussa said and what GarthB stated earlier.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns

Quote:
"I also know that pitchers use some sticky stuff to get a better grip from the first throw in spring training to the last side they're going to throw in the World Series. Just because there's a little something that they're using to get a better grip, that doesn't cross the line, you know?"

GarthB Tue Oct 24, 2006 08:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbyron
I'm so disillusioned. I hope that you're wrong: the comment you mention did not appear in the earlier post. Where did you see or hear him say that? (I'm curious, not denying what you say.)

A couple things are hard to square with your interpretation: (1) why is Leyland different from any other manager? Surely there aren't any secrets among the grizzled veterans. (2) If LaRussa were motivated as you say, why bring up the matter at all? Doesn't he run the risk of escalation merely from mentioning it to the umpires?
The comment I mentioned was in this morning's paper. Leylan worked for LaRussa. As I said, he knows where the bodies are and probably how LaRussa's pitchers work.

LaRussa had to handle it someway...the clubhouse was telling him that Fox was showing close-ups of Roger's hand. He handled it as discreetly as a manager could.

Jurassic Referee Tue Oct 24, 2006 08:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
You're giving LaRussa far too much credit. I believe his low key approach has more to do with Leyland knowing where the bodies are buried in St. Louis side of the field. Leyland worked with LaRussa.

LaRussa's skirt isn't all that clean. If he had come out and demanded a cavity search of Rogers, Leyland would have come out and the St, Louis pitchers, or the source of their goo, would be subjected to the same treatment.

LaRussa practically admitted this with a comment that basically said that everyone was looking for an edge and as along as it didn't go too far, it was okay.
Well, as I said, Tavarez got 10 days in 2004 when he played for the Cards and he got caught with pine tar on his hat brim.

When LaRussa was with Oakland....and I think that this happened in the 1989 ALCs.....a clubhouse attendant in Toronto found an emery board in Dennis Eckersley's glove after a game. LaRussa brought Eckersley in to close the next night, and the Jay's manager, Cito Gaston, immediately went to the home plate umpire to ask for a search of Eckersley's glove. I think that the ump was Davey Phillips- he talked about this play in his book iirc. The tv cameras caught Eckersley shoving something down his pants, but they never had a good shot of what it was. Phillips never found anything in the glove, and he said afterwards that there was nowayinhell that he was going into Eckersley's pants. So, yes, I agree that laRussa know what real life is like from both sides. Btw, also iirc that game ended with an Eckersley strike-out and the Oakland catcher then giving the Toronto bench the finger. That incident played big on the sports pages for a while too back then.

GarthB Tue Oct 24, 2006 08:34pm
Since I couldn't find the quote in my newspaper's online version, I searched and found it in a Fox article:

"There's a line that I think defines the competition — and you can sneak over that line, because we're all fighting for an edge," La Russa said. "I always think, does it go to the point of abuse? And that's where you start snapping.

"I also know that many pitchers — I was going to say, 'routinely,' but that may be too strong — use some sticky stuff to get a better grip from the first throw in spring training to the last side (session) they're going to throw in the World Series. Just because there's a little something that they're using to get a better grip, that doesn't cross the line."

The full story is here: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6088650


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