Roger's finger 'stuff'
 

I missed the start of the game last night. What was the boo-har-har about a substance on Roger's hand?

To me, it looked like he had pine tar on his hand. LaRussa went out and talked to Marquez about it. Marquez asked Rogers to wash his hands after the first inning, but he never inspected Rogers' hand to see if the substance was dirt or pine tar. Rogers claims that the substance was dirt and rosin.

http://images.sportsline.com/u/photo...img9744972.jpg

There it is. Looks like he got his hand caught in the cookie jar! Seems fishy to me. MLB probably won't do anything since he wasn't ejected, but bottom line is he should have been ejected. Or at least Marquez should have inspected Rogers' hand. Marquez also went over to the crowd and spoke with umpire supervisor Steve Palermo. I wonder what was said between the two. My momma didn't raise no dummy, I've never seen any dirt look like that before.

What's interesting is they've showed pictures of this "dirt" on his hand in the exact same spot when he pitched in the ALDS and ALCS.

You might never know?
 

We probably will never know, but the fact that the umpire (who is a professional) did nothing probably means in reality that its insignificant.

The media just wants to have something to talk about.

I did hear an interview with Todd Jones last week though and he said on radio that in cold weather all of the pitchers will put pine tar on their hands and that its allowed by MLB.

He probably would not say that today since its been blown up, but in his interview he said it was used by nearly all of the pitchers and that the umpires allowed it.

When asked why he said something about that without it they wouldn't be able to throw strikes and MLB didn't want everyone getting hit.

The things that go on in MLB that we just are never aware of ...

Thanks
David

The substance could have been anything. Just because it is brown, does it have to be pine tar? For all we know, Rodger could have just come from the toilet!

If it's allowed then why did they want him to wash it off?

When did they change the rule on using pine tar?:confused:

In the 1988 NLCS, Jay Howell, the Dodgers' closer got caught with pine tar on his glove. He got tossed and then handed a three-game suspension. He argued that he didn't know it was illegal, and MLB told him "Too bad" and that he shoulda known the rules.

If it were pine tar (for argument's sake) and it was on his hand, what rule does this violate? It's not on his glove. It wasn't defacing the ball. Is there a real rules violation? If so, which one?

Is simply having pine tar on the hand illegal?

blueump,

How about:

JM

That's not dirt, Turface, Diamond Pro or pooh. It's pinetar.

Apply a little of that to one edge of a ball, and watch your slider dance. That's a good place to put it too, right on the heal of your thumb. Just roll the ball back in your hand, and viola'. That is until those darn HD cameras showed up.

But...for sake of argument...how can pine tar in a baseball game considered a foreign substance? I know this was played at a AL park, but what if the pitcher has batted and the pine tar from the bat is on his hand. Is pine tar a foreign substance...and is there a specific rule that prohibits pitchers from having pine tar on their hands?

Yes there is. And it's pretty complicated to understand, so I'll post it for you:
Oh, wait, that was in the post you were responding to ... Um... so what part of this rule does not make it clear to you that having a foreign substance on his hands is illegal?

So a pitcher bats, gets pine tar on his hand, and is ejected for having a foreign substance on his hand??? Back to my original question which ... um ...you responded to:

How is pine tar a foreign substance in baseball?

Are you trolling me? Surely you're kidding.

Pine Tar is not a foreign substance in baseball, it is however a foreign substance to the HAND. A pitcher may not have ANY foreign substance on his pitching hand. As for all the other things brought up previously, it is also illegal to have poop on your pitching hand, wether or not you are aware it is there. A PITHCER CAN HAVE NOTHING ON HIS PITCHING HAND. If he bats, and gets pine tar on his hand, he better clean it off before he takes the mound.

Big Tex,

While I would certainly concur in regards to pine tar, etc. there actually IS one "foreign substance" the pitcher is allowed to have on his pitching hand. Says so right there in the rules.

JM

Rosin.....sorry, I stand corrected.

This was in the first inning and he was told to wash it off whatever it was. Then he continued to shut out the Cardinals. It seems to me that it had no bearing what so ever in the outcome of the game.

....had no bearing

Except to state the what if case of... what if he should have been ejected.

Here's one for debate. If the umps had knowlege that there was something on his hand. They never looked to see what it was. Why not? Did they not want to find out because to do so may have put them into the position of having to kick him out? Did they handle it according to protocol? I certainly don't know the answer to any questions but just want to hear what everybody says.

Foreign substance or not, it's obviously against the rules for a pitcher to have pine tar on 'em.

Brendan Donnelly of the LA Angels got an 8-game suspension in 2005 for having pine tar on his glove. Julian Tavarez of the St. Louis Cardinals got a 10-day suspension in 2004 when Joe West found pine tar on the brim of his cap(gee, I wonder how LaRussa knew about the rule last night?:rolleyes: ). And as I said before , Jay Howell of the Dodgers got 3 games in the NLCS in 1988 for having pine tar on his glove.

You don't have to be found using it, according to the reports that I read. If they find it on a pitcher, you get a vacation.

This is just speculation but here's what I think happened. The Cardinals noticed something on Roger's pitching hand so LaRussa brought it up to the attention of HP umpire Alfonso Marquez. Fonzie probably asked if he wanted him to confront Rogers to see exactly what it was. LaRussa, not wanting to "disrespect" Leyland, probably just told Marquez that wasn't necessary but whatever it was, to make sure it's gone by the next time he comes out to pitch. Thus, Marquez told Rogers as he was coming off the field "hey Kenny, I don't know what that brown crap is on your hand, but do me a favor and get rid of that stain by the next time you come out here"

You have to remember, umpires don't go looking for boogers unless they have to. They are not going to accuse a player of cheating unless a member of the opposing team brings it up. If LaRussa wanted to make a big deal about it - he could have forced the umpires to go inspect the hand. However, if you going to call someone out like that, you better be sure that he is guilty of something or else it could blow up in your face. LaRussa, probably not wanting to take that chance, just asked Marquez to have Rogers clean his hands. Rogers did that and still shut them out over the next 7 innings - that's why LaRussa said it was no big deal.

However, if LaRussa would have asked the umpires to check out the hand for a foreign substance, Crew Chief Randy Marsh would have been put in a no win situation and probably would have been forced to eject Rogers if indeed, there was pinetar on his hand. That would have changed the entire game but LaRussa, not the umpires, chose not to do that.

Pine tar is okay for a batter to have, but it's a no-no for the pitcher. He bats and gets it on his hand, he'd better wash it off before he takes the mound.

I'm amazed that TLR did not call for a formal inspection, buddy or no buddy, showing-up or not. With a World Series game at stake, he's usually got more cojones than he showed there. I'd have my mother inspected if I thought it was necessary and it was the WS... I mean, c'mon!

Very puzzling. Perhaps he thought the Cards would hit Rogers anyway....I suppose he regrets his decision now.

How about this. From the PBUC 6.3: The term "foreign substance" shall include any object, material, or substance that could, in the judgement of the umpires, be used to deface or "doctor" the ball in any manner.

<i>Here's one for debate. If the umps had knowlege that there was something on his hand. They never looked to see what it was. Why not? Did they not want to find out because to do so may have put them into the position of having to kick him out? Did they handle it according to protocol? I certainly don't know the answer to any questions but just want to hear what everybody says.</i> See Rule 8.02(a)(2) through 8.02(a)(6) Comment. I believe that will answer your question.

For those of you thinking it was pine tar ... have you ever tried to wash pine tar off your hand? Not a quick fix, folks, and the smell stays with you even afterward. I have no problem believing this was dirt or something else innocent like Shoe Polish... and I'm rooting for the Cards.

But smells aren't illegal, are they ? :D :D

shoe polish=foreign substance (illegal)


In big league clubhouses, they have a solvent that takes pine tar off. It is similar to the stuff trainers use to take tape residue off. If you look at he "after" picture, there is still a brown discoloration. I think it was pine tar and somebody told him to take it off.

My question is this: Unless Rogers was trying to cheat (oh, my stars!), why would he have any pine tar residue on his pitching hand? It's not like they were playing in St. Louis, and he had to bat, or even handle a bat at all. He should have been nowhere near the pine tar rag.

I think the pine tar was there for a reason, not by accident. And I'm for the Tigers. Then again, maybe I'm still not over Rogers shoving that cameraman.:(

If we was trying to cheat he would not have a foreign substance on the base of his thumb, which is a location clearly visible on a TV camera. I think his hand was dirty so he was asked to wash to remove the question mark.

Here's a link showing Kenny Rogers with this substance on his hand during other games. At least one photo is from July, 2006.

Sports Illustrated

I think a part of the story that should get some more play on this board is the action of Marquez. He went over and talked to Steve Palermo during the game to get instruction on how to handle the situation. Why not consult the rest of your crew and make a decision? I don't like going to the "higher ups" in the middle of a game. It sets a bad precedent.

Yea, I know what you mean.

The LAST World Series I worked they called me over 3 times, and I just ignored them.

I showed them who was in charge!

My speculation was right along those same lines. It logically explains pretty much everything we saw.

another game another day
 

it dismays me that rogers pitching perfprmances in the post season has come down to his "posssible cheating". He cleaned the hand and went out a pitched another 7 innings which left those facing him clueless as to what to do...lets just wait and see... if we will get to see him another day in this series with clean hands, who knows he might just pitch another gem.

From the Detriot News:

ST. LOUIS -- Clean it up -- or else.

That was the message St. Louis manager Tony La Russa sent after FOX television cameras revealed some type of substance on the pitching hand of Detroit starter Kenny Rogers during the first inning of Game 2 of the World Series on Sunday.

La Russa could have gone further and not just issue his version of a warning. He could have asked the umpires to check Rogers with hopes that if the veteran left-hander indeed was doing something illegal, there could be a suspension for the rest of the series.

"I decided that I was not going to be part of the (garbage) where I was going to ask the umpire to go to the mound and undress the pitcher," La Russa said Monday during a workout day before Game 3 tonight at Busch Stadium. "I alerted (plate umpire Alfonso Marquez).

"I said, 'I hope it gets fixed. If it doesn't get fixed, then I'll take the next step.'

"I'm sure there are fans of ours and maybe teammates or whoever, people in the organization, that said, 'You should have gone to the mound.' (The umpires) have to get a request (from the manager). They don't act on their own.

"I said, 'I don't like this stuff, let's get it fixed. If it gets fixed, let's play the game.' It got fixed, in my opinion, and we never hit the guy."

MLB managers are always controversial figures, and La Russa has had his idiot moments over a long career. But on the biggest stage in baseball, he showed a lot of class, and that counts for something.

Maybe Rogers was cheating, and maybe not. But if La Russa gets into it, then it becomes a different kind of controversy. In the event, any unfair advantage was eliminated, and the Cards still couldn't win.

La Russa's words, "If it gets fixed, let's play the game," demonstrate that he's got his priorities straight. It's about playing the game, not wheedling every possible advantage out of a situation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sal Giaco This is just speculation but here's what I think happened. The Cardinals noticed something on Roger's pitching hand so LaRussa brought it up to the attention of HP umpire Alfonso Marquez. Fonzie probably asked if he wanted him to confront Rogers to see exactly what it was. LaRussa, not wanting to "disrespect" Leyland, probably just told Marquez that wasn't necessary but whatever it was, to make sure it's gone by the next time he comes out to pitch. Thus, Marquez told Rogers as he was coming off the field "hey Kenny, I don't know what that brown crap is on your hand, but do me a favor and get rid of that stain by the next time you come out here" You have to remember, umpires don't go looking for boogers unless they have to. They are not going to accuse a player of cheating unless a member of the opposing team brings it up. If LaRussa wanted to make a big deal about it - he could have forced the umpires to go inspect the hand. However, if you going to call someone out like that, you better be sure that he is guilty of something or else it could blow up in your face. LaRussa, probably not wanting to take that chance, just asked Marquez to have Rogers clean his hands. Rogers did that and still shut them out over the next 7 innings - that's why LaRussa said it was no big deal. However, if LaRussa would have asked the umpires to check out the hand for a foreign substance, Crew Chief Randy Marsh would have been put in a no win situation and probably would have been forced to eject Rogers if indeed, there was pinetar on his hand. That would have changed the entire game but LaRussa, not the umpires, chose not to do that.

Sal, I agree with your assessment and IMO the reason LaRussa didn't have the umpires inspect the ball is because he and Tiger Manager Jim Leland are the best of friends.

If the manager was say good ole Bobby V of the Mets, it's my gut LaRussa would have had the umpires inspect the ball and EJ the pitcher.

My question is this?

Did Joe Torre notice anything? It's hard to believe that Rogers did this for the FIRST time and no-one other than LaRussa found out about it.

Pete Booth

Well, they've already showed pictures from the ALDS with it in the same spot. My guess is that the Cardinals were reviewing game film and saw it. JMO, though. You can bet if this game goes 6, the cameras and everything will be on Roger's whole body looking for something. Guess it goes to show that pay back is a bi*ch! :)

Who collects the "vaseballs" and where are they now?

You're giving LaRussa far too much credit. I believe his low key approach has more to do with Leyland knowing where the bodies are buried in St. Louis side of the field. Leyland worked with LaRussa.

LaRussa's skirt isn't all that clean. If he had come out and demanded a cavity search of Rogers, Leyland would have come out and the St, Louis pitchers, or the source of their goo, would be subjected to the same treatment.

LaRussa practically admitted this with a comment that basically said that everyone was looking for an edge and as along as it didn't go too far, it was okay.

I'm so disillusioned. I hope that you're wrong: the comment you mention did not appear in the earlier post. Where did you see or hear him say that? (I'm curious, not denying what you say.)

A couple things are hard to square with your interpretation: (1) why is Leyland different from any other manager? Surely there aren't any secrets among the grizzled veterans. (2) If LaRussa were motivated as you say, why bring up the matter at all? Doesn't he run the risk of escalation merely from mentioning it to the umpires?

Here is 1 of many
 

This article confirms what LaRussa said and what GarthB stated earlier.

http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news?slu...yhoo&type=lgns

The comment I mentioned was in this morning's paper. Leylan worked for LaRussa. As I said, he knows where the bodies are and probably how LaRussa's pitchers work.

LaRussa had to handle it someway...the clubhouse was telling him that Fox was showing close-ups of Roger's hand. He handled it as discreetly as a manager could.

Well, as I said, Tavarez got 10 days in 2004 when he played for the Cards and he got caught with pine tar on his hat brim.

When LaRussa was with Oakland....and I think that this happened in the 1989 ALCs.....a clubhouse attendant in Toronto found an emery board in Dennis Eckersley's glove after a game. LaRussa brought Eckersley in to close the next night, and the Jay's manager, Cito Gaston, immediately went to the home plate umpire to ask for a search of Eckersley's glove. I think that the ump was Davey Phillips- he talked about this play in his book iirc. The tv cameras caught Eckersley shoving something down his pants, but they never had a good shot of what it was. Phillips never found anything in the glove, and he said afterwards that there was nowayinhell that he was going into Eckersley's pants. So, yes, I agree that laRussa know what real life is like from both sides. Btw, also iirc that game ended with an Eckersley strike-out and the Oakland catcher then giving the Toronto bench the finger. That incident played big on the sports pages for a while too back then.

Since I couldn't find the quote in my newspaper's online version, I searched and found it in a Fox article:

"There's a line that I think defines the competition — and you can sneak over that line, because we're all fighting for an edge," La Russa said. "I always think, does it go to the point of abuse? And that's where you start snapping.

"I also know that many pitchers — I was going to say, 'routinely,' but that may be too strong — use some sticky stuff to get a better grip from the first throw in spring training to the last side (session) they're going to throw in the World Series. Just because there's a little something that they're using to get a better grip, that doesn't cross the line."

The full story is here: http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/6088650

Everyone is just taking for a fact that it is pine tar. My dad, a surgeon who is a specialist in wound care took one look at the hand and immediatly named (this thing I dont remeber the name of it) but he says they use it to help hold wounds togeather, it has something to do with gripping. He was almost positive it was this thing and told me to feel his hand. I touched his hand an it was sticky, he said my point exactly, he had just finished working his one sunday a month at a wound center and had used the stuff. I asked if he washed his hands and he said many times, but the stuff just sticks and is really hard to get off. I might add you could not see anything on his hand. If Rodgers was using this stuff, this could explain why he was still so lights out. Just a thought take it for what it is worth.

Exactly!
 

Great perspective and I believe very true. Baseball is a dirty game - its not all good ole boys as its portrayed on TV.

We've been there as umpires in HS college and down and even with friends there is nothing above reproach when it comes to winning.

LaRussa knows what would have happened, Leyland's been around the block a few times and LaRussa probably knows that his pitchers might not be able to withstand the same treatments??

Makes you wonder ...

thanks
David

Just out of curiosity....
 

I was listening to the first part of the radio broadcast of last night's game three on ESPN radio and Joe Morgan indicated that he had had breakfast with Randy Marsh before the flight to St. Louis. Morgan asked Marsh why the crew never went and checked Rogers hand. Marsh replied that LaRussa never asked the umpires to do so.

I think that we have established that this is a reasonably accurate recount of the events. My question is if this is a MLB philosophy - wait for the opposing manager to request an inspection for a foreign substance on the pitcher?

How would all of you that work the levels below MLB (college, HS, LL, etc...) handle this situation? If you noticed something unusual on the pitcher's person, would you intitiate the inspection or would you wait for the opposing manager to bring it to your attention?

MLB 7.10: "....A manager may request that an umpire inspect an opposing pitcher for possession of an altering substance or object,but the umpire is not obligated by this request to inspect the pitcher." - quoted from J/R pg 134

I will not pick buggers. Manager is going to have to say something, especially if what I am seeing is very visible to everybody, as was the "something suspicious" on the base of Roger's thumb. He was clearly not hiding it.

My take on the whole thing...
 

First of all, LaRussa learned about the "stuff" on Rogers hand from an "reserve" player in the clubhouse who saw it on TV. He told LaRussa, who went to the ump inbetween innings. If LaRussa tells the plate ump that how was was informed, isn't using a television monitor grounds for ejection? Maybe that's whay Tony didn't force the issues. And if LaRussa didn't request the ump to pay Rogers a visit, the ump was obligated to, was he? And the fact that the pitcher is more than 60" away wouldn't it be a little hard to see the stuff on his hand where it was located? After all, the camera's had to really zoon in the show it. For me, I would have walked over to Rogers, ask to see his hand. If it was sticky, he's gone. If not, wash it off and let's play ball. Your thoughts.

The direct use of TV monitors is prohibited, as in having one in the dugout for the purpose of stealing signs, etc. The relaying of second-hand information from the monitors located in the clubhouse occurs in all MLB games, and is not illegal.

I would be surprised if there was a team who didn't have someone in the clubhouse watching a televised game.

San Diego Steve
 

That's my point. Maybe LaRussa didn't want to tip his hand. And since the PU wasn't directly asked by LaRussa to examine Rogers hand, the PU let it go.

What's your point? I still don't get it.

You said, "If LaRussa tells the plate ump that how was was informed, isn't using a television monitor grounds for ejection?"

I said, "The relaying of second-hand information from the monitors located in the clubhouse occurs in all MLB games, and is not illegal."

If LaRussa received information from the clubhouse that Rogers had this pine tar/poop on his pitching hand, that would not be illegal information, so why would he worry about tipping his hand?

Since Rogers has been photographed in at least 2 other games with the same goop on his hand, I wouldn't recommend he try it again in his next start.

..but will he get another start?




the world wonders

My point is did LaRussa violate the rule of using a television monitor for coaching purposes? Doe he rule say anyting about first or second hand viewing? Dosen't LaRussa risk being tossed if he tells the PU he saw the pine tar/poop on Rogers hand on a TV? As far as tipping his hand, maybe LaRussa had the player in the club house relaying information on what pitch Rogers was going to throw. (I know, a far fetched idea but hey, anything is possible right?)

BTW, I'm a Card's fan!

The rule is that the team cannot have any monitoring device in the dugout. Game info from clubhouse monitors is constantly being relayed to game participants, in every ballpark in the league.

As far as relaying pitches, it really is farfetched. That would require each batter to be wearing a wire of some kind in order to successfully relay that information in a timely manner. Oh yeah, after deciphering the signs, which can be constantly changed. Yeah, it's probably been tried already.

If they could do it to Branca, they can do it today.....

LOL.....

This forum is starting to look like a new tv reality show-- <i><b>"Global Moderators Gone Bad!"</b></i>:D