I'm not going to discuss the <i> Danny issue </i> but the LLWS in general. I will use the Olympic Games as my reference.

In the early days of the Olympics, strictly amateurs were involved. We have the remarkable accomplishments of Jessie Owens , Bill Toomey, Jim Ryan , Kip Keno and many many others. The thing they had in common is that they were all amateurs and the games had excitement in them.

What have the Olympics become - another greed hungary business. We now send our professional athletes over to the games and say we want to <i> even up the score </i>, however, I think we can all admit that sending our PRO Basketball Team to the Olympics is a joke. There's no doubt that if they really wanted to, they could beat teams at will by over 50 points.

Ok let's get back to LL. I know we had the Taiwan incident, but in general LL used to be pure, but watching the games at least in my view, even LL is becoming <i> tainted </i>

Forget the Danny issue for a minute - Did you check out the teams that made it - both domestically and internationally?

These kids played Sound Fundamental baseball - meaning they played together for <b> a long time. </b> I believe (do not have the book with me ) that the LL rule states that there are only certian times in the year, where an All Star Team made up of players from a particular association can practice and play as 1 unit.

In watching the games, I do not know if that statement is entirely true. These kids hit the cut-off man, were positioned properly, had excellent communication bewteen themselves and the coaches. You do not get that good simply practicing in select times throughout the year.

I know there's travel ball, but even the Florida coach commented on how long his kids have been playing ball together as 1 unit.

Therfore, is everyone, not just the Bronx Team, playing by the rules? Should LL investigate these other programs and see if they are playing by the rules? Personally I think LL would be shocked to find out the truth?

Why? - Even LL is becoming <b> Big Business </b> - Did you check out the crowds and all the TV exposure. Also, the US wants to put a good product out there on the field.

In Conclusion: Either everyone plays by the rules or simply change them. The areas of concern after a few months will probably be <i> swept under the rug </i> until next year.

Perhaps the other teams are <i> catching a break </i> because everyone in LL is strictly focusing on Danny's Birth Certificate when they should be focusing on the entire LL program as a whole.

Pete Booth

Pete,
Along that line, the European Champions in Senior Softball had no apparent affiliation with Little League until the Tournament.
mick

I tend to agree, Pete. I see the Danny Almonte situation as epitomiacal of what is wring with LL today. It seems to me that parents and coaches ruin the game and the kids just go along. Do you think Almonte's coach or many LL officials knew he was 14? I doubt it; they had no way of knowing that the DR government allows multiple birth certificates, or that Almonte's dad pulled a fast one on them. Instead, the LL officials (administration and umpires) do their best to deal with the coaches and parents while still "doing it for the kids." The problem is not something that is much under LL's control; I doubt any action could make the operation more kid-centered.

Does PONY, Cal Ripken, or AAU 12U have any of the same problems?

P-Sz

<i> Originally posted by Patrick Szalapski </i>

<b> Does PONY, Cal Ripken, or AAU 12U have any of the same problems? </b>

Patrick do not know the answer, but I have been told that the Cal Ripken League is picking up popularity, because in their select 12 yr. old program, they play <b> real baseball </b>. I think (not sure perhaps someone who has a child in the prgram can comment) the mound is 54ft. not 46 ft. and the bases are 75ft. not 60 ft. In addition, the runners can lead off and slide anyway they want provided it's not malicious of coarse. Also, they can run on a dropped third strike.

As with anything in life, we really do not know what the problems are until <b> the spotlite shines </b>

Pete Booth

Clarification
 

"Cal Ripken" is not a league unto itself as is PONY or LL. It is a lower level division of Babe Ruth. I don't know about so called "Select Cal Ripken", but at the Eastern WA Babe Ruth Tournament, the Cal Ripken level could not lead off or steal until the ball reached or passed the catcher.

Hardly what I would refer to as "real baseball."

In PONY baseball at that same level, local PONY associations have a choice to allow leading off and stealing or not. At tournament time, the choice is removed and leading off and stealing is permitted.

GB

USSA Baseball also allows the kids to lead off and run on uncaught 3rd strikes in all divisions except coach pitched ball.
Makes for better games and better players, IMO.

Roger Greene,
Member UT

The American Academy of Pediatrics says, "Hey, little kids are getting paralyzed from diving head first."

Babe Ruth's Cal Ripken League says, "Pish-tosh, we want to play <b>real</b> baseball."

Amazing.

what do the statistics show?
 

Jim:
Curious, any chance you have the statistics from that report?

RE: Diving
 

Jim, your sure that they referring to baseball
sliding or <b>diving</b> as from a <i>diving board</i>?

Kinda wondering!

glen

Head and neck injuries in sports
 

Neck Injuries: Urgent Decisions and Actions
John Wiesenfarth, MD, MS; William Briner, Jr, MD
Emergencies Series
Editor: Warren B. Howe, MD

THE PHYSICIAN AND SPORTSMEDICINE - VOL 24 - NO. 1 - JANUARY 96


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


"Of the 6,000 to 10,000 spinal cord injuries reported each year, motor vehicle accidents account for 35% to 45%, and falls for 25% to 30% (1). Most of the rest are related to sports, especially football, rugby, ice hockey, soccer, diving, gymnastics, and wrestling (2-4). Nevertheless, catastrophic neck injuries are infrequent in sports, with a prevalence of less than 2/100,000 neck injuries (3). One sport has especially reduced the incidence: Fewer than 10 football players each year have sustained permanent injury to the cervical spinal cord since 1977 (5)."
_____________________

No mention of baseball in the listing of sports in which spinal injuries occur annually.

Re: Head and neck injuries in sports
 

There's a good reason for that. The study you quote above was not exclusively for ages 5-14 playing baseball and softball. The American Academy of Pediatrics issued their warning about head first slides for <b>only</b> children around 10 years old. It is not surprising that such a report does not include such rigid case studies.

What I think is even more interesting is that the quote Garth provided seems to give credit to football for reducing the incidence of "spearing". This is the same potential cervical spinal injury that Little League is trying to prevent by prohibiting head-first slides.

It is not the frequency of spinal injuries in children around 10-years-old that facilitated the rule prohibiting head-first sliding. Admittedly, the number of incidents are low. But the severity of the injury is alarming enough that any youth league with children 10 and under should take a very serious look at head-first slides.

Do we have to have documented reports of dozens of children in wheelchairs before even considering the prohibition of this slide? My God I certainly hope not. The idea is to keep the kids out of the wheelchairs, and on the baseball field.

Re: what do the statistics show?
 

Hi Rog,

Because research firms make money from their statistical reports, it's hard to get the most up to date numbers without paying for them.

However, in 1996, The Consumer Product Safety Commission issued a report that studied injuries in children playing baseball.

The report cites 162,100 players being treated in hospital emergency rooms for baseball-related injuries in 1995. Of those, 75% were in children 10-14. Of children 10 and under, the most common injuries reported were to the head and neck area.

8% of the total injuries reported to children 10-14 were due to sliding, or 13,000 sliding injuries. 8,200 of those were caused on a slide into a base, and only 6,600 were related to base contact (preventable by break-away bases).

The numbers seem to be there to support prohibiting head-first slides in divisions where children around 10-years-old play. I guess I don't understand how other organizations can turn a blind eye toward that.

Don't misread me.
 

I am not attempting to downplay neck injuries or the potential for neck injuries. My oldest son suffered a severe neck injury in wrestling when he as a freshman.

He was paralized from the shoulders down for three days and it scared the hell out us.

His injury was so similar to those caused by spearing in football that he was included in an NFL case study of neck injuries and their relationship to spinal cavity size undertaken by a specialist in Philadelphia.

He shows no signs of his injury today and in fact wrestled two more seasons and played football for three season. We understand how fortunate we are.

GB

Head 1st Slides
 

Which Leads to me to this statement/question. Isn't a head first slide towards a base that you have not occupied illegal in Little League baseball?? I thought this was put in around 1998/1999. Maybe it was a local rule... I guess it isn't illegal because if it is was, the last run scored by Japan in the finals would have to been disallowed.

Re: Head 1st Slides
 

Dr.C,
Yes, the head first slide is illegal in Little League.
However, in the instance of which you speak, I think the slide was initiated by the runners feet actually being propelled forward and to the right side, as opposed to the head and arms being propelled forward.
A great slide, I thought. Very athletic and legal.
mick

Re: Re: Head and neck injuries in sports
 

<i> Originally posted by Jim Porter </i>
<b> Originally posted by GarthB </b>


<b> Do we have to have documented reports of dozens of children in wheelchairs before even considering the prohibition of this slide? My God I certainly hope not. The idea is to keep the kids out of the wheelchairs, and on the baseball field. </b>

Jim I agree, but then the rules have to be applied consistently. The end result of the slide in the LLWS was that the runner was head first with his hand extended to touch the base.

If you are worried about safety as your aforementioned statement suggests, then the runner in the Final play of the LLWS should have been called out.

IMO you can't have it both ways. Granted, the runner went into the slide with his feet first, but because he had to avoid F2, he twisted and eventually he was head first. The umpire could have called the runner out and I do not believe her decision would have got overturned, because when all was said and done the runner was head first.

In conclusion, that's the problem with head first slides. I would have ruled the same as PU, but one can make a case that the last run was via a head first slide. Also, why allow a head first slide backwards. It seems as though one picks and chooses the ramifications of the head first slide.

As with all things in life, one takes a risk when you play a sport. When B1 comes up to bat there is a chance that he could get hit <i> in the wrong area </i> and be seriously injured - do we tell F1 not to pitch inside?

Therefore, until statistics proove otherwise, put the head first slide back in the game at least for the 12 yr. old division.

Pete Booth

Re: Re: Re: Head and neck injuries in sports
 

Pete,

The 12-year-old division includes 10-year-olds. Even the 12-year-old tournament division includes 11-year-olds - that's awfully close to 10.

As far as the slide in that LLWS World Championship game, I really feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. I cannot believe how many intelligent Internet posters have tried to argue that it was a head-first slide.

<b>Pete, a runner can legally touch the base with his hand. There is <i>no</i> prohibition against that.

Pete, a runner can slide legally in Little League and still touch the base with his hand - or even his head!</b>

Why you equate the action of touching the base with the slide is beyond me. C'mon, now, you know what a head-first slide is. That Japanese runner was <b>sliding</b> feet first - away from home plate.

There is consistent enforcement when it comes to this rule, provided the umpire can recognize a head-first slide. Apparently, that's much tougher than I originally thought. I am absolutely dumbfounded by that. I always thought a head-first slide was easy to recognize.

So, even though you probably saw Pete Rose slide head-first dozens of times in your childhood, even though you now know the intent of the prohibition against head-first sliding, you still think that runner slid head-first???

As Papa C is fond of saying, "Amazing!"

Re: Re: Re: Re: Head and neck injuries in sports
 

<i> Originally posted by Jim Porter </i>
<i> Originally posted by PeteBooth </i>
<i> Originally posted by Jim Porter </i>
<i> Originally posted by GarthB </i>



<b> As far as the slide in that LLWS World Championship game, I really feel like I'm in the Twilight Zone. I cannot believe how many intelligent Internet posters have tried to argue that it was a head-first slide.

<b>Pete, a runner can legally touch the base with his hand. There is <i>no</i> prohibition against that.

Pete, a runner can slide legally in Little League and still touch the base with his hand - or even his head!</b>

Why you equate the action of touching the base with the slide is beyond me. C'mon, now, you know what a head-first slide is. That Japanese runner was <b>sliding</b> feet first - away from home plate.

There is consistent enforcement when it comes to this rule, provided the umpire can recognize a head-first slide. Apparently, that's much tougher than I originally thought. I am absolutely dumbfounded by that. I always thought a head-first slide was easy to recognize.

So, even though you probably saw Pete Rose slide head-first dozens of times in your childhood, even though you now know the intent of the prohibition against head-first sliding, you still think that runner slid head-first???

As Papa C is fond of saying, "Amazing!" </b>

Jim I believe I mentioned that I agreed with the call. I would not have ruled it a head first slide but my point is as follows:

Individuals argue about the safety issue and <i> no matter how you cut the cake </i>, The Japan runner ended up head first regardless if he started feet first or not.

I would venture to guess that if this play happened in your average everyday <i> run of the mill </i> LL game you would get a 50/50 split on the call or perhaps even higher.

I still say, simply put the head first slide back into the game. To my knowledge, there are no known facts that substantiate injuries resulting from them.

You say it's <i> amazing </i> well I think it's <i> amazing </i> that people do not want the head first slide but if's perfectly ok to use metal bats at such a short distance.

We can go on and on about safety. My main point was not the call at the plate but strictly the safety issue and if you do not want head first slides, what about the metal bats, the distance from home plate to the mound when a kid is throwing in the upper 60's from only 46ft. away.

Shall I go on

Pete Booth

Jim's right, it wasn't a head first slide or even close. It was a hook slide with a tag by his hand as he went by. Some people complain about no proabition on a return. 99.9% of the time it's a return from a few feet or in a pickle where the runner isn't running full out.
As far as Cal Ripken baseball it's the same as LL. 46 ft mound, 60 ft bases, no leading off. Frankly I'm not sure of an advantage of one system over the other even in the older kids.
PONY at the same level is 70 ft bases,48 ft mound, 225 ft fences, and lead-offs allowed. The option of leading off or not is in the 9/10(Mustangs.)
They have three options:
A) full lead-off
B) lead-off of 1st and 2nd only
C) no lead-off same as LL

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Head and neck injuries in sports
 

But, Pete, there's no rule against which part of the body ends up at the base. The prohibition is against a particular <i>slide</i>. I just can't believe that you don't get the difference and why. The intent is clear, and you just keep going back to what part of the body ended up at the base first. <b>Who cares?!?</b> It is the type of slide which is prohibited, and not what part of the body a runner touched a base with.

To believe your numbers would be to believe that 50% of Little League umpires have no idea what a head-first slide is. I think that is a gross exaggeration. I think most Little League umpires know what a head-first slide is.

Well, the Academy of Pediatrics and The Consumer Product Safety Commission both disagree with you. But just like other youth league organizations, you feel it's better to keep "real" baseball on the field than it is to listen to agencies who have the experts and the data. Amazing!

If the American Academy of Pediatrics or the Consumer Product Safety Commission released a report giving their opinions that conclusive data exists that proves those bats to be a danger at that age level, then Little League would be the first organization to ban them. But the data shows otherwise, Pete. And Little League posted that data on their web site. Injuries decreased since the onslaught of high-tech bats in Little League Baseball.

You see, data is far more conclusive than someone's opinion. That's why we have research - to tell us exactly what is injuring players, and exactly what is not.

No, no need to go on. I can see that you find your own opinion far more valuable than any expert opinions, research, or hard data from emergency rooms all over the country.

It's Pete Booth in this corner, and the American Academy of Pediatrics as well as the Consumer Product Safety Commission in that corner. I know who the odds-on favorite is in that fight.

It's going to take seeing a neck get broken before you and those other youth baseball organizations finally wake up. And for that 10-year-old who ends up in a wheelchair for the rest of his life, I hope you can explain to him that it's all just a part of "real" baseball.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Head and neck injuries in sports
 

<i> Originally posted by Jim Porter </i>
<i> Originally posted by PeteBooth </i>

<b> It's going to take seeing a neck get broken before you and those other youth baseball organizations finally wake up. And for that 10-year-old who ends up in a wheelchair for the rest of his life, I hope you can explain to him that it's all just a part of "real" baseball. </b>

What about a kid who gets hit in the head or face area with a 65 - 70 mph fast ball from only 46 ft. / or F5 playing in for the bunt gets a ball hit down his throat.

How are you going to explain that to him. What it's in the rules?

Did you see the special on ESPN about the use of metal bats? There are certain collegiate schools that are going to wood because of the injuries sustained by certian pitchers.

Is the reason we do not worry about the aforementioned is becasue there are no statistics yet?

Whenever you play sports, there is a certain risk involved. Heck my kids play sports also. You have to teach them the proper techniques of sliding, avoid getting hit or if you are going to get hit how to avoid the "crucial" areas.

If you do not want risk stick to golf or something. Just because there are no statistics issued on something doesn't mean the result can't be fatal.

It's like an intersection in which everybody knows that a traffic light should be installed, however, nothing gets done until a fatality strikes.

ok how did we get to this from my original thread anyway -

Pete Booth

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Head and neck injuries in sports
 

I don't know. But, as always, it was fun to debate with you Pete.

Back to the original subject,
 

Pete,

Down south we play mostly Dixie Youth and Dizzy Dean; however, the same problems exist.

The season now plays from April to May. The tournaments supposedly start July 3rd and the teams are only supposed to be able to practice for two weeks before the tourneys that they play in.

However, you can tell since they end in May they have the entire month of June to practice and they do, many six days a week.

It's to the point of rediculous and the league official just ignore it because every other team is doing the same thing and they have to follow suit to be able to compete.


Our local league hosts the Dizzy Dean WS for the next few years and since the WS doesn't start until July 18th or so, they travel to tournaments every week from June until ...

I talked with one parent who said they had spent nearly $3K on travel, etc., just for their kid to be able to play All-
Stars.

And it's just for the kids ... (g)

Thanks
David