Whoa was I out of position...
 

Happened this weekend. AAU 17U game.

Runner on 2nd, takes off with the pitch. I start to move towards 3rd base as the pitch is in the air.

The ball is then hit a little bit behind where I was (kind of towards C). I thought it was hard hit, turned out it was a bit more of a dribbler. I opted to stay to the 3rd base side of the ball, and let F6 make his play.

F6 came in and threw to first, I did my best to take 4 or 5 steps towards 1st but I was still on the other side of the diamond. Of course the "get in position to make that call" chirping came, but whatever.

My question is, should a BU in "C" move before the pitch is caught to get a steal of 3rd? Or is my situation just one of the compromises of the two man?

Of course you shouldn't be moving until the pitch is caught by F2 or struck by the batter.


Tim.

You're kidding, right?

I'm off the instant I know R2 is stealing, moving towards the midpoint of the baseline between home and third. How could you possibly get any kind of an angle if you wait for F2 to catch the ball?

17U? I think it's safe to say we're talking 90' diamond here not LL mechanics. If you aren't moving before the ball reaches the catcher, you're not gaining either angle or distance on this play.

It doesn't make sense to me to committ to moving before I know if the ball is going to be put in play or not.


Tim.

On this move, one does not take his eye off the ball. He just begins his move to get anqle and distance on the steal. Adjustments can be made for hit, or wild pitch or whatever happens.

I don't believe any reputable clinic, camp or proschool teaches otherwise.

This is what I have on pdf. file from Baseball Canada. I believe this models the PBUC mechanic.


Runner in scoring position; steal of third.

Base Umpire……should make sure the runner is going by shoulder-checking over his right shoulder. If the runner goes, read the catcher’s throw, move to the play, get a 90 degree angle to the slide, get set and make the call. Do not get too close or cheat on this play or you will be out of position. React to the appropriate.
base.

Tim.

Admittedly, I don't own any Canadian mechanics manuals. I also have not been to PBUC, so I cannot say if they mimic this Canadian mechanic. I can only say that this was not what was taught at Evans Desert Classic, and I don't believe Evans teaches one thing at his Classic and another at the 5 Week.

If you wait for the the throw, provided you are appropriately positoned prior to the play, you will not gain any where's near a 90 on this play, unless, of course you're working little boy ball. Runners who steal at the older levels move quickly.

So how do you begin to move then. Do you just take a few slide steps to your right as the ball approaches the batter?

Tim.

Hmmm,
 

OK, umpire school twice, three MLB three day clinics, five college CCA camps, teach at various clinics and local assocaiton camps:

It has always been taught to start to move towards the impending play the instant you read the steal. As noted, catch the movement over your shoulder, while still watching the hitter move to your calling position.

If you wait the pitch to be completed you'll get about two steps in big boy ball and will proably get to work a lot of JV.

Regards,

No. Moving parallel to the runner keeps the angle the same and puts you in position to be looking up the runner's butt on the play.

I begin by stepping forward, opening the angle, and then let the throw, if it ocurrs to take me to the play, this time moving towards the mid point on the 3BL between third and home.

Really? I was always taught to wait until the ball is caught, and I was taught right here in the good old USA. I thought we were never to anticipate a play, and to let the play take us where we're supposed to be. I have never had trouble getting over and getting an angle.

What if it was a delayed double steal? You would be hung out to dry if the catcher were to throw to 2nd. How about a snap throw behind the runner at 1st? Then you're on the other side of the field running the wrong direction.

I have never seen an umpire leave his position before the ball was caught, EVER!!!! Why would you even assume there was going to be a throw at all? All you need to do is take 3 or 4 quick strides toward the midpoint of the baseline, turn and pivot, set, and you are right there for the play. It does not require leaving your position prior to the catch. That sounds like a sure fire recipe for ending up out of position.

Tim & Steve,

From the PBUC "Two-Umpire" Manual (original emphasis):

JM

Thanks JM, from those out of the house and not carrying their, as Steve from Blue's Clue's Would say... "handy dandy rusty trusty, MANUALS"!

JM,

"Begin his reaction" does not mean "take off running" the way I see it. Sure, I begin my reaction by saying to myself, "he's going, now what?" There may not be a play at 3rd at all. The catcher may fake a throw to 3rd, then throw to get the trail runner at 2nd. I see this happen all the time. I have taken at the most, 1 false step toward 3rd, and can recover in time to get a good position for the play at 2nd. If I take off with the runner, I'm guaranteed to look like an idiot when the play ends up being at 2nd base.

Ahem,
 

SDS:

Don't take a simple statement and run with it like a smelly mackeral.

"Moving to postion" is far different that "takling off running."

I follow the exact process as CoachJM has documented.

Sometimes it is hard for some of us to say "I was wrong" . . . It is clear to me that the quotation by CoachJM means to physically MOVE not just think it through.

Regards,

Steve,

If your not moving to the 45' line angle the on;y part of the play your going to see is R2's back side.

The main source of concern with moving for the angle on the play at 3B is being out of position for a ball hit to the infield. (I don't buy a throw to 2B: if F2 has a play, it's FAR more likely on R2 stealing 3rd than R1 stealing 2nd, but even if so, see below.)

But think about it: in the time of a pitch and throw down, how far will you get? 3 steps? 5? Not a lot, and the direction is crucial: I think Rich pointed out you move to the midpoint of the baseline between 3B and HP to have the optimal angle, which does take you out of the working area.

If the ball IS hit, you will have time to move back into the working area for the play at 1B, and in any case your angle will be approximately correct for that call.

As we know, 2-man mechanics is a system of compromises. We prioritize this play: 1. cover steal at 3B, where the throw is most likely and the angle is worst from C; 2. return to working area in case of a batted ball. Oh yeah, and don't let the batted ball hit you!

That's exactly where I move to, toward the midpoint between 3rd and home. I anticipate moving there when the runner goes. I glance over my shoulder to see him go. You always here someone yell, "he's going." In the split second between the runner going and the catcher catching the ball, you can't tell me that you get that much of a better jump. I'm not talking about standing there flat-footed and dumbfounded while the catcher throws to 3rd, I'm just saying that I do not fully commit to 3rd base until I'm sure that the play is going there.

Okay. R2 only. "He's going," you hear. You glance over your shoulder, and sure enough, he's going. You start toward your angle. The next thing you know, R2 chickens out and retreats to 2nd. Your momentum is going toward 3rd. Here comes F2's throw to second. Now, instead of taking F2's throw over your shoulder, turning you into the perfect position, you are in position for a terrific angle for the non-existent play at 3rd base.

I repeat: I have NEVER had any problem getting a great angle, getting 4 or 5 good steps toward the midpoint of the 3rd baseline, and having a really good look at the play at 3rd, all without leaving C until the ball smacked the catcher's mitt. This is at the HS Varsity level, mind you. I'm sure that professional athletes are much faster, and if PBUC says to leave sooner, I would comply when working pro games.

Yep. That's what we were taught. Thanks for reminding me that the mechanic is in the manual. I can cancel my order for the Canadian version.

Maybe you're just slow, and need the extra half a second to get to your position. I don't need the extra jump, myself.

A serious question.

You have, in the past, talked about how, while you have never gone to pro school or attended an extended pro camp like one of Evans' Classics, you were, never-the-less trained by local "pro" umpires.

So, are you saying that in all the training by these pros, you have never heard of the proper PBUC and proschool mechanic for this situation? Do the local pros "dumb down" mechanics for the association? Or. perhaps your association has its own mechanics?

No insult intended, honestly, I'm just trying to understand how you were trained.

No. We just perform mechanics as properly taught.

I'll say it one more time: I've never, ever once, seen a base umpire start running on a steal before the ball was caught by the catcher.

I said I learned pro school mechanics from pro school graduates, some of which were minor league umpires. I worked with an umpire, who was home on vacation from his Texas League assignment. He is a very well known umpire here. He even wore his TL uniform and hat for the game. He had the bases. He had a steal of 3rd, and he did not leave C until the catcher caught the baseball.

The time frame you all are talking about is so miniscule to start with. You can't seriously think by leaving with the runner that you are getting that much of a bigger jump.

Now, you think they dumb down the mechanics for us? These were pro school grads, teaching 1986 or earlier pro school mechanics. Nobody ever once said to leave C position at the same time the runner does. The umpire isn't stealing the base, so why should he try to beat the runner. I can still get over for my angle before he gets anywhere close to 3rd.

I have no problem with the PBUC mechanic, but let me say this. I believe using a times-rate-speed calculation shows that a 70 mph pitch reaches the batter in .584 seconds. Just how much of a jump will that get you if you move as soon as the ball is delivered?

Tim.

"Begin his reaction" is far different than "Moving to position."

The PBUC manual makes no mention of "moving to position" prior to the ball being caught. It says to "begin your reaction."

Well, no sh*t. We all begin our reaction, otherwise we would, as SoCal said, be looking up the rear-end of the runner.

I begin my reaction when I know the runner is going. I get ready to pounce into action, weight on the balls of my feet, ready to push off with my left foot at a perfect angle. I know the exact spot I'm going to run to. By instinct, I know when to turn into the play and set. Voila, I'm right there.

But take off willy-nilly before the ball reaches the catcher? Never.

No. See above post.

You apparently misread my post. I didn't say I thought they dumbed down the mechanics, I asked if they did. And I asked only because I take you at your word as to their experience and I was curious why a pro wouldn't teach the way he was taught. That's all.

On to a basketball game.

I would like to say, for the Benefit of the board, I attended umpire school this year, and also was sent to PBUC. We were taught to move towards third when the runner takes off by checking over our right shoulder, gain the most distance and best angle possible, and then if the ball is put in play react accordingly to the batted ball. Hope this helps.

Thank you, TC

tc, which school did you go to and what league were you in this year? adding to his school and pbuc post, the evaluator's will mark a guy down for not moving before the ball reaches the catcher. that point should clear up the "begin his reaction / moving to position" argument.

I guess I'll change then. Hope I can get that check swing call right while moving.

sds:
 

Please don't try to make this brain surgery.

There is actually no problem is seeing these type things.

You have been clear in previous posts that you believe an umpire from "C" can make the checked swing call. . . there is nothing different here.

I BET you already moved . . . and just didn't "feel" it.

Tee

In the original post, TussAgee11 said entitled this thread, "Whoa was I out of position." I think there is a distinction between perhaps moving a bit toward the play, and actually taking off with the runner. I have taken a false step or two toward 3rd, but able to recover for a snap throw to another base because I did not overcommit to 3rd, which is the natural tendency.

Tim,

The time of the pitch is NOT when he releases it.

To most of us, this isn't a surprise, but thank you for validating the proper mechanic.

About 3 yards including lag time. Note I held my lip (ah fingers) .silent. from further comment.

Second time you've said it, so I have to ask - what is a "false" step?

If there's an R1 along with the R2, my first two or three steps are FORWARD. Once the throw is made, I either adjust towards third or adjust towards second.

99% of the time the ball goes to third.

Who said "take off willy-nilly?"

It's important enough that the runner uses it -- and most runners are a hell of a lot faster than I am (understanding that the runner must move farther than the umpire).

I seem to recall that the time between F1 committing and Fx catching the ball from F2 is something like 2 seconds. If that's true, then I don't think I can afford to "give up" the 30% - 50% that happens before F2 catches the ball.

As Tee implied (or at least as I inferred from his post), I think most of us (on both "sides" of the issue) are really saying the same thing. It's wrong to wait until F2 catches the ball. It's also wrong to run willy-nilly toward the position as soon as R2 breaks. Be moving toward the position (and the "moving" can include body motion), but don't commit until there's goiing to be a play.

Out of position?
 

Why would you ever be out of position. If you know the game, you should know when a steal is coming. Then you can "cheat" to be int eh correct position at all times.:cool:

Question
 

Does anyone set up in C other than on the line from the edge of the mound to the plate? In other words, does anyone cheat toward 3B because the runner at 2B may have a very large lead, often directly behind the BU?

There is no one spot for the C position. Game situations come into play when setting up on the grass. I've set up deep, shallow, left a little, right a little....

I did not realize that the double A umpires got vacation. Also, why did he wear his TL uniform and hat? Sounds like he was trying to big-league you.

The original poster was not out of position by what he said. I was not there so I do not know definitely.

I went to the Wendelstedt school this year and was taught just as TC Ump was taught. You check over the right shoulder for the runner at 2nd and react accordingly. You must be in position before the play is made so tha t you can be stopped and set. If in the instance of the original poster the ball was hit as a dribbler then you will have to react without getting in the way. The key is angle and distance. You may have to sacrifice distance for angle. Just do your drop steps and pivots and you will be fine if you get proper angle.

If you are waiting until the catcher catches the ball to react you will not have the proper angle on the play. You will likely see the back side of the runner and will likely have no clue as to a close bang bang steal play at 3rd.

Before going to the school, I would move a step or so toward 3rd but nothing like I do now. Now I realize the proper way of doing it and do have a much better angle and approach.

I have been umpiring for a number of years, I have purchased numerous training aids and went to various schools, yet I have never heard of staying still until the catcher catches the ball. SDS said he would give up the check swing call for the steal play. Truly the check swing call is not your call to make unless the PU asks for help. You must first do your job. You have to make the safe/out calls.

If you need any help or anything just ask and I will do anything I can. Hey even the pros make mistakes. We are human after all.

For clarificiation, what I meant by my title of the thread was that I was really far away and had an unusual angle for the banger at first. It sounds as though, according to you guys, that there was little I could do other than what I did to get myself close to where I needed to be to make the call at 1st.

Thanks ya'll.

What I meant was that he was on vacation after his season was over. From what I remember, as this was over 12 years ago, he did not have any association uniform shirts available, so he wore his pro uniform. After all, he had been a minor league umpire for quite some time to be in the Texas League, which is AA. Why would you expect him to still have his old shirts?

He got assigned the game because the assignor wanted two good officials on it since it was a championship game of a 17-18 yr. old tournament, and it was the time of year that many umpires (the ones who are too "good" to work non-NFHS games) are no longer working.

By the way, this umpire now runs an umpire training program in the Southern California area. If I named him, you probably would regognize the name.