"real umpires"
 

I've read numerous threads on this site debating the differences between so called "LL" or "small diamond baseball" umpires verses "real" umpires who call on 90' diamonds with shaving aged players.

I propose this: If you have the skill sets and the training to be successful at the HS, college or adult level, then you will perform well on any size diamond regardless. All other debate on the subject is pretty much useless.

I have been at it for over eight years now, calling youth, senior league, HS and NABA. (NO LL for me, I like getting paid). I can confirm through experience that there are terrible umpires out there at ALL levels of baseball. And some of the worst are calling HS JV. (At least down here in north TX).

However, if you have not, for whatever reason, worked higher level baseball at at least HS varsity level or above, then you will never gain the right to proclaim yourself a "real" umpire. I do not consider myself there yet. Thats why I lurk here to try and learn something.

Just my opinion

Mike

And what about those umpires who are trained well, and work Varsity HS baseball, and also choose to work any level of baseball presented to them, just because it's baseball?

I began working Varsity in my second season, and that's all I worked as far as HS went. But I also would work any lower youth ball level, adult semi-pro leagues, collegiate wood bat leagues, and any other games that I was assigned, including Little League (which pays $40 for Majors here, BTW) because I love baseball, and I don't care what level game it is.

I still can't figure out why the line seems to be drawn at Varsity HS to be a real umpire. HS ball is not at all difficult to umpire. I'm sorry, it just isn't! I would argue more that none of us are real umpires unless we are working MLB. Those guys don't consider us real umpires, any more than we consider Little League umpires to be real umpires.

So, unless I see you on Sports Center every night, don't consider yourself a real umpire. I worked Varsity steadily from 1987 through 2005, and I still am not a real umpire. Damn.

Perhaps you are correct Steve. None of us amateur umpires are "real umpires" because of the simple fact that it isn't our career. I just tend to make HS varsity the bar. I agree that it isn't that difficult. I would argue that in alot of cases doing youth ball can be more diffucult than HS. But HS varsity is the first amateur level that has coaches who usually have a firm grasp of the rules, players who tend to play at a high level of skill, and where the games can mean something.

Mike

fwump/Mike,

I believe you are missing the point of those who, on occasion, make disparaging remarks regarding "LL umpires".

By way of analogy, I am not a "real" coach. While I've never coached an "official" LL team, the highest level team I've ever coached is 15U Travel ball. While it's been quite a while since I've coached on a 60' diamond, I've never coached a team that played on a 90' diamond. (The last four years, my teams have played on an 80' diamond.) So, for all intents and purposes (or is that "intensive porpoises"?), I am a "LL coach".

For me, coaching is an avocation that I enjoy and put a lot of time & effort into; but what I don't know about coaching probably vastly exceeds what I do know about coaching. And yet, the people whose children I coach generally consider me a very good coach, are delighted to have their children play on a team I am coaching, and are amazed at how much I know about baseball. Having said that, it would strike me as ludicrously self-delusional to think that I was "good/real" enough to coach a HS Varsity (or JV, for that matter) team.

Don't get me wrong. I could do it tomorrow. I would "get through it" and survive. And, I am confident that there are countless Varsity/JV HS coaches across this great country of ours who are not doing as good a job as I would do - tomorrow. But, that would not make me a "real" coach. Because I am also confident that there are countless JV/Varsity HS coaches across this great country that I am not even in the same league with. Probably not even the same game.

As I moved from a 60' to a 70' to an 80' diamond as a coach, I was continually amazed at how little I knew about coaching the game at the new level I had moved to. Much like parenting children, you don't know what you don't know until you are put in the position of having to deal with it. And you cannot be good at it until you HAVE dealt with it - and then, only if you ARE good at it.

Though I personally have no experience to back this up, I suspect umpiring is much the same. And I believe this is in the neighborhood of the "point" being raised in the "real umpire" posts.

If you have not had the experience of moving through the progression of "levels" of umpiring, neither you nor anyone else knows if you are a "real" umpire. If you have moved through that progression you may or may not be a "real" umpire; you may not know yourself. (Don't kid yourself that having "done" it and survived makes you a "real" umpire.) But, I assure you, somebody does. If you have progressed, & have become a "real" umpire, choosing to umpire "kiddie ball" does NOT detract from your "realness" - it's simply a personal choice as to whether you so choose or not.

No special kudos to those who so chose, no condemnation for those who choose otherwise.

I have seen two people who post in this forum umpire baseball games (I was NOT coaching). They both looked like "real" umpires to me. Occasionally, I get an umpire who looks pretty "real" to me at a game where I am coaching. When I do, I think it makes the whole game better for everyone.

Stop worrying about who thinks you are and are not a "real" umpire & just do everything you can to become one. It's not about the level or the size of the field or the age of the players - it's about the umpiring.

Of course, I'm just a dumb "kiddie ball" coach, so I could be completely wrong about all this.

JM

I find it curious, coach, that 15U travel teams, in your area, plays on 80' bases. I have worked several 15U travel tournaments and have never seen them play on anything less that 90' bases.

Here, 15 is the age of JV and some Frosh players. During the summer, they either play on Legion teams or select travel. The last time any of them stepped foot on a 80' basepath was when they were 13.

Is it common elsewhere for 15 year olds to play on 80' diamonds?

Garth,

One of the travel leagues I coach in allows (baseball age) 15 year olds, who have just completed 8th grade, to play in the 80' league in the summer. Entering HS Freshman "Fall Ball" & "regular" 15U is played on a 90' diamond. I've never coached one of those teams.

JM

Unless OJ was quoted saying something recently, this may qualify for some sort of prize.

kylejt
 

Actually he is on the "right" road here.

No matter what you think:

No "real" umpire has worked small diamond ball only.

In my opinion, which I do not have to defend to anyone, small diamond umpires are not "real" umpires. They are nothing more than inexpensive baby sitters.

In fact, we are getting more close to the definition of "real baseball umpires" than ever before . . .

I don't expect you to agree . . . in fact I expect an agressive answer . . . that does not make you correct.

Regards,

Your opinion, which you do not have to defend to anyone, really bites.:D

Hey all,

To be perfectly honest, this is the best definition of a "real umpire" I have seen or heard yet.

I am not a real umpire by this train of thought, and never will be, according to some, but I will continue to be the best "unreal umpire" that I can be.:D

LomUmp:cool:

Yeah but guys like you do "real" baseball and drop to the small diamond for a little "fun". You don't live on the small diamond! :p

Actually, come tournament time I look at getting in some small diamond games as a break from some of the attitudes we deal with when we're working the bigger players. I get a kick out of hearing players say "we've got real umpires today."


Tim.

I believe this is an apt analogy: You wish to learn to fly an airplane. First you read some manuals and perhaps some books or articles about flying. You make a trip to the airport where you find a good instructor to mentor you through the process. After perhaps 70-80 hours of dual time you finally solo the airplane. Finally when your instructor decides that you are ready he calls out the check airman who gives you your check ride. If you don’t blow it he signs your ticket. Hey I’m a “real” pilot now! Hardly. All you have is a license to learn. Now you get in that airplane as often as you can until you master the skills you need to be a real pilot. You accomplish this by practice, practice, and more practice, along with continued training. Those who go out every other weekend and putter around in their single engine 2 seater only if the weather is sky clear are just "smitty" in an airplane.

Mike

Someone, Evans perhaps, lists the four stages of umpires:

1) You suck, but don't know it.

2) You suck, and you know it.

3) You don't suck, but you don't know it.

4) You don't suck, and you know it.

"Real Umpires" are those trying to moving through stages 2 - 4 (and those stages exist at all levels -- someone could be in stage 4 for HS ball, but stage 2 for college ball).

"LL Umpires" are those stuck in stage 1 (or 2 if they know it but don't care).

While "LL Umpires" can exist at all levels, IMO, there are a higher percentage in youth ball than at other levels -- youth ball seems to allow those at stage 1 and 2 to stick around more than HS or higher ball.

Must be level of play
 

Maybe its easy to umpire Hs games in your area, but when I was in TX and where I am now there is a huge difference in "small ball" and HS ball.

There is a huge difference in what is expected of an umpire even from JV Varsity to HS varsity.

We have coaches who know real umpires and not real umpires. The ones that are not for real get eat for lunch.

Its JMO of course, but if I find an umpire taking it easy, then he's coasting and not going to umpire any big games in our association.

There's simply too much at stake especially once district season starts. One game can make a difference in whether a team makes the playoffs or not and umpires can make a difference in that game.

Thansk
David

I like that!
 

Now that's well stated Bob. Having to save this post for future reference and in training...

Thanks
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by fwump I've read numerous threads on this site debating the differences between so called "LL" or "small diamond baseball" umpires verses "real" umpires who call on 90' diamonds with shaving aged players. I propose this: If you have the skill sets and the training to be successful at the HS, college or adult level, then you will perform well on any size diamond regardless. All other debate on the subject is pretty much useless. I have been at it for over eight years now, calling youth, senior league, HS and NABA. (NO LL for me, I like getting paid). I can confirm through experience that there are terrible umpires out there at ALL levels of baseball. And some of the worst are calling HS JV. (At least down here in north TX). However, if you have not, for whatever reason, worked higher level baseball at at least HS varsity level or above, then you will never gain the right to proclaim yourself a "real" umpire. I do not consider myself there yet. Thats why I lurk here to try and learn something. Just my opinion Mike

I personally do not like to make generalizations.

IMO, Umpiring is all about one's goals and availability.

I worked exclusively LL baseball in my early career. Not because I didn't want to advance but because it fit my work schedule. I could not get out of work in time to make HS games.

Also, in LL their is 90ft. baseball so I gained some experience that way.

When one works HS games, you need a job that fits. You see teachers, postal workers, policemen/ Firemen, sales type people or individuals who have their won business primarily at the HS level because they have a job that fits.

It wasn't until I worked in my job for several years, became a good employee and then was able to "work around" my job to do HS ball.

IMO, the term "REAL UMPIRE" is an umpire who

1. Looks the part meaning they are properly dressed
2. Reads the rule-book
3. Attends some form of mechanics training and
4. Takes pride in what they do no matter what the level of ball.

Pete Booth

I find it interesting that neither experience nor ability find a place on your list.

I guess my question is, what was the point of the original post?

I liked the four stages of umpiring. I did baseball for about 5 years, three of those I worked HS JV and a few Varsity games. I always worked some LL and Pony league as well. I believe towards the end I fluctuated back and forth between stages 2 and 3. There are bad JV umps out there but I have seen very few, if any, bad Varsity umps in my area. They all call a decent game and always look like they know what they are doing out there. I never felt that I was anything better than a good JV umpire. Never could get the feel of being really consistent with my strike zone and that is part of the reason I gave it up. I didn't want to be one of those guys who people hate to see show up to work a Varsity game. I also work basketball, do a lot of Varsity games and feel very comfortable with that sport. There is, in my opinion, a world of difference between working a Varsity game vs a LL game. The expectations on you are much higher at the Varsity level, from both the coaches and the players. Most folks are just happy to see an adult in uniform behind the plate at a LL game. I consider guys that umpire for a living real umpires.

Real -vs- Unreal (A.K.A. Fake)
 

As I read the comments to the OP I see various levels of ego here.

I laugh at comments like "you don't become a 'real' umpire until you do HS ball." Talk to a college umpire and he might say "You don't become a 'real' umpire until you do college ball" And there's the D1 umpire in regards to college umpires at lower divisions. Wait there's the MiLB umpires, do they consider the D1 umpire's 'real' umpires? IMHO it's all BS.

I know a 20+ year veteran of LL umpiring. He's as real of an umpire as I have ever seen. I've worked up to small college ball with 'real' umpires at that level too. I've worked with former MiLB umpires, they were 'real' umpires too. And then there are my Brothers in Blue that work HS & Adult League ball with me now, all 'real' umpires.

IMHO there are 'real' umpires at all levels. Real umpires can't be judged by the amount of money they earn on the field or the level they choose to work.
It's based on their dedication to the game, their ability to umpire at whatever level they're at, their desire to do the best they can......and the list contnues. This, IMHO, defines a 'real" umpire.

If it took you that long to solo, you should look for a different hobby :)

I don't know about the experience not being mentioned. I agree that it should have been. However, I think the four listed are mutually inclusive of ones ability.


Tim.

What is reality? - Timothy Leary, 1966
 

Bob:

You brought back memories. From my journal, here is Jim's version of the "Four Stages of Learning":

1. Unconscious Incompetence

You're horsesh!t and you don't know it.

2. Conscious Incompetence

You're horsesh!t and you know it.

3. Conscious Competence

You're competent, but you need to think about what you are doing while performing.

4. Unconscious competence.

You're competent and don't need to think about it, you just do it.

An simple example of this in action:

1. First stage umpires don't utilize the three possible positions for each play because they don't know what they are.

2. Second stage umpires know the three possible positions, but don't use them.

3. Third stage umpires use the three possible positions but have to remind themselves what they are.

4. Fourth stage umpires instinctively utilize the three positions.

I don't.

I know umpires who dress great, read the rule book, go to their associations mechanics sessions, are prideful of their efforts and suck. In fact, I think I saw a couple of those at LLWS.

I liken it to music. One can buy a great tux, take lessons, practice like hell, be proud of their efforts and play like crap. Some where along the line there has to be a place for ability, talent, skill, whatever you want to call it.

Its been a long time ago. Now that I think back it took 70-80 hours to get the airman's certificate. Solo was long before. I did take up a new hobby. Umpiring!

Mike

Then you're saying there has to be a pre-disposition to succeed as a "real" umpire?

Tim.

RIF

No, I didn't say that. First off all, I don't use the term "real umpires" becaused I don't know what it means.

Secondly, although volumes have been written about the possibility of a pre-disposition to a skill playing a part in future success at that skill, I didn't suggest it. I suggested skill or ability, both of which are developed, is required for one to be considered a good umpire and that looking good, reading the rules, attending a clinic and being proud of your effort are not enough. Perhaps you were confused by my inclusion or the word "talent". We can debate forever what that means. I prefer not to. I'll remove it if it is getting in the way.

As we often tell music students, practice is meaningless unless it is performed properly. Some students can "practice" two hours a day and not develop as well as those who "practice" half an hour a day. There are numerous books written on the art of practice.

It's similar to five years experience and one year's experience five time.

I will continue to contend that a good umpire displays more that the listed four items and must demonstrate the ability to perform well before he is considered a good umpire. Without ability, he just "looks" like a good umpire.

You may continue to believe that skill isn't required if you'd like, or that by lookikng good, reading the rules, attending a clinis and being prideful is either evidence of skill or automatically develops skill. As both and educator and an umpire trainer, I know better.

I respect an umpire who not in order of importance:

Looks the part.

Show up on time.

Knows the rules. Not necessarily a rules guru but knows the most common problems that occurs and how to apply the rule properly.

Uses proper mechanics.

Has good timing.

Communicates on the field. ie. uses signals.

Has good game management. One could write a book on what good game management is. But that's another thread.

Is open to suggestions on how to improve as an umpire.

This might not be your list and I may have left something out but if you do the above you're a "real umpire" or at least on your way to becoming a "real umpire".

The answer is yes and yes. I started calling for JD just this year and you are correct...there are about a half dozen "decent" guys in his group. I consider myself among those. And yes most take their cash and want to get out as quick as possible. But that could be because most of the time its really bad baseball. And its awfully hot in July.

Mike

JustMe
 

We already know what Minor League umpires think of any non-professional umpires.

They made themselves VERY clear on several umpire webiste during their much maligned "strike".

I respect your right to express your personal opinion.

AS I have stated before: "Real umpires work real baseball."

I don't buy either your logic or opinion and that is what makes this fun.

Regards,

So, where are you drawing the line for the definition of "real umpires?"

Do you not agree that those at a higher level than you would not consider you a "real umpire?"

I mean, you had a cup of coffee in the bigs, but you don't work those games regularly, so where do you stand on the "real umpire" ladder?

No, actually my area is well known for having some of the top teams in the country, and has many of its star athletes make it to pro ball. Prep baseball is taken as seriously here as high school football is on a Texas Friday night.

I find that working any level of baseball comes fairly easy and naturally to me. I may not be the best there is, but I have truly always been a natural at it. I also have trained hard for it, studied hard for it, and tried to learn everything I possibly could for it.

I continue to learn new things all the time, so that I can improve myself. That is one reason I come to these sites, and I have learned a great deal. I feel that what I have picked up here, and at other umpire forums has made me a better umpire than I was before.

Sds
 

Ya know Steve I can select to make any determination as to who is or not a "real umpire."

I would surely expect an up and coming MiLB umpire to not respect umpires that work non-professional games. It is drilled into them over-and-over -- "hate your partner cuz you'll have to climb over his not yet cold body to get to the biggest stage."

Steve, I would suggest that on "my list" of requirments to be a "real umpire" would follow some sort of "experinece+education+quality of baseball umpired+size of diamond= Real" type equation.

To paraphrase Potter Stewart: "When I see one I know it!"

And SDS, I don't see them thar guys on small diamond games.

I have been called arrogant, caustic, condescending and conceited . . . I guess we should add: judgemental.

Regards,

I hope that you don't think that these are positive, endearing traits for one to display. JMO:)

Actually
 

Steve, I do see them as "qualities" . . .

Regards,

Sounds like pro material to me...if only you could add "young."
:D

Good Umpires
 

I'll take a position in this discussion. I don't care at all what some people think you need to do to be a "real umpire." It's a silly discussion designed to dismiss certain folks due to arbitrary characteristics. If members of this group want to dismiss me because of the level of ball I work, I chose this handle to make it easy for them.

A good umpire:

• Exercises good judgment. Her decisions are consistent with the facts.
• Applies the rules correctly with deferrence to appropriate custom and usage.
• Manages the game with respect for the participants and to keep it moving efficiently.
• Works well with her partner or partners by taking care of her responsibilities and supporting them in theirs.

Everything else: dress, equipment, training, mechanics, experience, and raw talent (whatever that is) are useful and necessary tools to achieve the goals, nothing more.

Ahhhhh, failure has many excuses!

Sad commentary!
 

Wow how things have changed. When I lived and worked in FWorth it was probably the best group of umpires in the north part of the state.

Most of the guys who worked HS also worked college and it was incredible baseball especially in the summer when all the college guys returned to play and improve their games.

You either had to be good or you didn't get to call the games - everyone else was left to call the pony and colt league games.

Of course that was 20 years ago, but still sad to see.

Thanks
David

[QUOTE=Tim C]
I don't buy either your logic or opinion and that is what makes this fun.
/QUOTE]

We do agree on one thing Tim, our right to disagree on the board does make this fun :)

An umpire is an (real) umpire, no matter what size field they work on.

But, the 60' diamond, and the way the games are called, is a very different animal from the 90' diamond, and the way those games are called. I have experience on both.

Both fields require well trained, experienced umpires, that deserve the credit that is do ANY umpire, that is sincerely doing the best job that they can.

Your supposed to use "AN" before an abbreviation ! :rolleyes:

Or can't you see your typo's through that limited vision MASK of yours ?

This is another thread that needs to end!


It has become evident that there is no resolution to the original question and it has turned into the usual mud slinging mess!

I've never "failed" on a baseball diamond...at least not as an umpire. I was trying to be funny. I should have used one of those little smiling emotacons so you would get the nuance. My bad.

Mike

Code Blue in room 6900...bring heavy medication stat!!:D

"Wakin' up dead inside of my head
Will never never do there is no med
No medicine to take..." ;)

JM