MLB foul ball overturned.....
 

.....and you guys are still talking about Little League?!

If a crew did this in Williamsport, you guys would be having a field day. Admit it.


:confused:

Could you describe the situation?

Peace

From MLB.com............


"Then came the controversy. David Wright, who was hitless in his last 25 at-bats against lefties entering Monday's game, hit a chopper down the third-base line that third-base umpire Randy Marsh initially called foul. After a conference among the umpires, home-plate umpire Angel Hernandez signaled that the ball had struck the bag and was fair. Beltran scored, Wright had broken his streak with the single and, after Phillies manager Charlie Manuel was ejected for arguing, the Mets were on their way to another win."


Tim.

Well they got it right, right?

I thought this is what everyone wants. They have to get it right under all circumstances. :rolleyes:

Is this not what Windy and many others have suggested is the right thing to do?

Peace

I don't know if there were other runners, Jeff. If there weren't I would agree that they did the right thing. If there were I'm not so sure there's a precedent for reversing the call of "foul" in this instance. It may very well have deprived the defense of an opportunity to get an out.


Tim.

I do not know how you can overturn a foul ball call. The defense could have still made an out and the runners could have advanced to more bases.

Oh well. They got it right I guess.

Peace

IMO the only thing the crew coud/should do (CSFP) would be to treat it like umpire int. Put BR on 1B and advance any runner forced.

Of course it IS MLB and Angel is involved ....

I saw this play. To me, this was a HORRIBLE precedent to set.

There WERE runners on the bases. The ball hit the back left corner of third base and bounded diagonally into foul ground. It was rather obvious, even before replay, but U3 gave some sort of half dead-ball, half SAFE!, with a little Incomplete Pass thrown in signal.

Based on where the ball bounded, there was no chance for an initial out - but who knows what else might have happened. To me, this was an obviously unringable bell, which was nonetheless unrung. Awful, just awful. Can't believe Manuel didn't protest, as I think it's pretty clear in OBR that you can't unring the foul bell unless it's a ball hit out of play (HR, GRD).

Manuel is with the Phillies now. He hasn't been with the Indians in a few years.

And as a Phillies fan, I wish they'd let Cholly go as soon as possible. He's horrible.

As a baseball fan, I wish they'd let Angel go as soon as possible...

This is why I hate the "Get it Right" community that tells us that we should always get together on these kinds of plays. To me this is the ultimate why this philosophy has a lot of holes. Even if runners were not on base, you take away the chance for other things to happen. If you call a dead ball, it should be a dead ball. For the record, NF rules makes it clear if you have a foul ball called by the umpire (when the ball hits the ground), you still have a foul ball. If this happen in a HS game under NF rules, they would have broken the rules. I have no idea at this time if NF or NCAA specifically addresses this.

Peace

Not from the replays I've seen.

Angel F-up again.

I could have sworn that I have read on this boarh if an umpire (1) has gone to a pro school and (2) is union he is infallible.

You don't even need to make it to MiLB to be infallable. Just go to a pro school or even attend the Arizona Classic and the sun rises and sets in your calls.


Tim.

OR be a coach sitting at the far end of the first base dugout and you can make every call at both third base and the plate!

Garth, it's OBVIOUS that the ball hit the bag. From any angle, but especially from the home plate angle.

I still must be too old school for my own good:

1) stick with the foul call. No un-ringing bells, ding-dong. I'm with Rut on this one.

2) No, now is not the time, nor will there ever be the right time for replay in baseball.

I wouldn't use the word obvious. In the replay shown on ESPN 2 this morning, there was daylight between the ball and the bag. Wait, let me look at it again.

(time passes}

Yep, daylight.

My complaint about this call isn't so much about whether the ball hit the bag. That's judgment, and if U3 missed it, no biggie.

As far as I know, no manual or book gives the slightest whiff of a hint that PU can do what Hernandez did. Someone mentioned precedent, and this sets a bad one, IMHO.

I don't care what the replays say...Angel F-ed up again by overruling the foul ball call. I don't care if the ball hit SECOND base.

Now, here's the real question: what will come first? MLB promulgating a rule actually addressing this issue like NFHS did, or MLB getting rid of Angel?

BTW, Angel was U3 on the Pirates/Cubs game tonight. Dusty argued a fair/foul call w/ him in the 11th inning, although it appears that Angel got it right....shocker.

Some of our mistakes are correctable, but I think a Foul Ball call must stand, unless it is changed to a Home Run.

The reason is that there is no reasonable way to determine what would have happened. I think that is why it is specifically spelled out in some rule sets that a Foul call can not be changed, unless it is for a Home Run.

Haven't checked in over the last week since the guys with white coats (no, not the funny farm gang) keep looking for things to test, stick and biopsy. But I saw this and y'all know that I am especially partial to this topic...plus my old nom de net was used, how could I resist?

I guess that's just one of the reasons some of us hate you, but I'll stick to the topic.

MLB has decided that if the call can be made 'right', the crew should make every effort to do it. Has anyone considered that Angel and his crew adhere to the "I've got everything up to and including the base, you've got everything beyond."? That sounds like a whole lot of pre-games.

I saw the play and it did look like the ball glanced off the bag and our 3BU did an "Oh, F---." call. Like the uncaught third strike on AJ last year, we can debate wheteher it did or didn't all day. I prefer to focus on the mechanic. Obviously, the PU was convinced that it was improperly called and used the MLB mechanic to rectify the sitaution. They did that and it doesn't set a bad precedent. They must adhere to a set of standards that we can't appreciate.

Jim (SCB1) had it right -it is treated as umpire interference because the umpires call effectively prevented any action from ensuing beyond what actually happened. Since the ball was ruled fair and immediately dead (ala the ball striking the bag and being caught by the umpire) it was properly administered.

I don't consider applying Fed rules to MLB to be the smartest move I've ever seen. I know, I know, you weren't saying that's what should have been called, you were just showing your knowledge of the dumbest rules in organized baseball. Fed rules apply to amateur umpires who may or may not be working alone. The fact that they can be threatened, manipulated or manhandled is why rules like that are on the books at that level. You made your call and don't have three partners to back you up - tough call coach, but I can't do anything about it. Yeah, that's why I love Fed ball and the gang who thinks our job ends with their mighty call. Human fallibility be damned - I'm the UMPIRE! All the second guessing I saw of Pros, NCAA and LL umpires must be for no reason. (snicker, chuckle, guffaw)

Oh WWTB, I wish you hadn't of said that.

I'm all for getting the call right under certain limited circumstances, like those set out in the NCAA Division 1 Championship Game Officials Manual that were posted months ago.

But unless the foul ball call is changed to a homerun, this is one of those that just needs to be left alone. Can't go guessing about what would have happened "IF"...

Ball is foul/dead. Get the ball back to the pitcher and let's play ball...

I knew I would rile a few guys like you. I've held this conviction for some time now. I was mocked when I warned that 'umpire conferences' would occr at the Major League level (No way, Windy...those guys are too arrogant and experienced to have one of their calls challenged!!!!). Yet, it happened and I smirked with contentment.

It should come as little surprise that this call would eventually happen. The problem with this one, may be that some of you think that the 3BU should always make this call. Many of us operate under the 'past the bag, it's yours philosophy'. This ball hit the bag and was a pretty clear call for Angel Hernandez. Yes, he is involved in controversial calls, but that may mean that he is aware enough to do what is right, not easy.

I have never over ruled a partner who has called something that was my call to make. I have, however, let them swing for a while as the skipper takes a bite or two out of them. Getting together to discuss it usually solves the issue and our egos, while large, usually shrink enough to acknowledge our blunder.

Lest we forget...MLB allows this call to be made. The conference on this call was appropriate according to MLB standards or these guys wouldn't have done it. Some of you need to accept that things are done for very different reasons at that level. You may not be comfortable doing it, but those guys have to comply or they will miss out on post season assignments or worse.

Like I said, if this was game 7 of the WS and your hero bounced one off the bag, you'd want the crew to get the call right. Just because it hasn't been seen before, doesn't make it any less important to the game. For that batter, his hit ended a long drought. Penalizing a player for your ineptitude is unacceptable at that level. I suggest that some of us may do well to start thinking that way. If you can't or won't, don't blame me when you are ignored for bigger assignments. The ability to adapt is key to life. I once wore a sport coat on the bases and used an outside protector when working games early in my career. Watch some old games and you'll see that dinosaurs like us have been forced to accept new mechanics many times. Illinois High School recently adopted a mechanic that keeps the BU in B for 99% of the plays. I don't like it, because I'm not as fast as I once was, but I need to do it if I work those games. Yeah,I know...Fed baseball is strange.

Anyway, do whatever you have to do to keep your assignor and league happy. If they want the right call made at all costs, you know what you have to do. If not...nothing has changed and we've got a good thread to debate.

You can't talk about IR in football and compare it to baseball. Football uses professional doctors and lawyers who only referee part-time twenty games max a season. Baseball uses professional full-time umpires. The only close comparison is hockey which is no replay except goal/no-goal and THAT is because you have a guy in a high chair looking down through a net at at 90 mile an hour puck, and another guy in a striped shirt watching the puck AND remembering who shot it, and who passed it to him, AND who passed it to THAT guy.
There is no sport with professional officials who has instituted IR for basic plays.

You must be looking at a different play ... the ball ricochets off the bag. It's blatantly obvious.

The ball bounces to the left in the very close proximity of the bag. The mind completes the picture.

There is daylight betwixt the two.

No sense in continuing. I can see the video that I am looking over and over. And you apparently can see something else. No problem. Angel thought he saw something, too.

I guess all that "hatin" has really accomplished something. You will soon see. You soon find out.

Peace

Ok,
 

"You will let you soon find out."

I'm not sure either guys.

Regards,

Football officials do not work games every single day. Football officials work once a week. Unless you are going to hold every football official in a training facility, then you cannot compare what football officials do to other sports.

Also you are right; there are no basic plays that can be changed through NFL or NCAA football games. You cannot review any penalty or many judgment calls. And when the whistle blows, in many cases nothing can be reviewed. In the baseball situation we are talking about, the umpire called a foul ball. I am not sure how you can go back and do that after everyone hears the ball is dead. To me this is the equivalent of the whistle being blown dead in football and the defense running the ball back for a TD (while the ball is dead). Then coming back and saying, "We know the ball was dead, but we are going to award the TD anyway." That would be wrong in that case, it was wrong to come back and change a foul ball in this case. Too many other things can happen. I agree with certain calls we should be willing to give information or take information, but just because someone thinks it is a good idea in one case, does not make every situation appropriate to use this philosophy.

I do not think anyone has ever taken an objection to deciding a foul ball that could have been a home run to be over turned. The ball is already dead and someone could have easily had another angle or offer information to get that right. The next thing we are going to start doing is having base umpires change balls and strikes. Why not, you might just get it right.

Peace

I'd love to attend the AZ Classic. My vacation time is limited to use with my wife and sons for the most part. In the not too distant future I'll probably take the time to do it though. Maybe we can share a room.



Tim.

No one ever is with him.

For those of you who took the time to read his posts, you'll find that he said that he hated the get it right at all costs camp. I simply reminded him of how strong that word was. Once again, Rut mystifies.

Ah the love.......

I'm inclined to agree here. Given the bounce in front of the plate and the fact that it went so high in the air, this ball had TONS of topspin on it, thus giving the illusion of it hitting the bag when it came down.

We've all seen a right-handed batter hit a pitch in the left-handed batter's box that takes a high bouce in foul territory, then upon landing, juts out into fair territory.

This is what happened here, IMO.