When to signal, or not to...
 

Something I've been wondering about...

Sometimes I will work with a partner that does not signal when there is a play on the runner. This seems to happen most on casual pick off attempts where everyone in the park knows the runner made it back. If you are BU, should you...

a) Signal everytime, even if no tag attempt was made?
b) Signal only when the 1B tries to put a tag on
c) Never signal

I do B, but some of the people I work with will do A or C.

This also seems to happen on stand up doubles where F6 or F4 will casually place a tag on the runner while trotting the ball back to the pitcher. Is a casual safe signal here acceptable?

Thanks.

I mostly use B. If there is no tag I do not see a reason to give a signal.

Also if a player is standing on the base and there clearly is not an issue with safe and out, I likely will not signal there either.

Peace

Same thing. On pickoff attempts, I give no signal unless it is a really close play. Then I either sell it "Safe!," or bang the runner "Out!" if he got him. If it is fairly close, I may give a non-verbal casual safe signal.

I'm not as experienced as either of you, but forgive my rhetorical question.

Do you not point on obvious strike calls?

Shouldn't you be calling, or at least signaling, everything? Point me in the right direction here.

Do you signal a fair ball that is hit to center field?

A pitch is much different than a ball thrown to a base and nothing has happen. Everyone might not know what the pitch is. If there is no tag, why is it necessary when a tag may or may not make a runner out?

You are trying to compare apples and oranges.

Peace

Pointing or hammering a swinging strike is for the benefit of someone who might have looked down or away when the pitch came. This keeps these folks from asking "hey, what was that pitch" when they weren't paying attention. It also makes it easy for the official scorer, who is busy writing and may not be able to tell if it was a swing or not.

Compare it to a Ball call. If the pitch goes way over the catcher's glove all the way to the backstop, do you really need to holler "Ball!" at the top of your lungs? Of course not. In fact, you don't even need to say "Ball" at all, because by definition it is a pitch which is not called a strike. You need to acknowledge "Strike" calls, but you don't need to say "Ball" if you don't want to (though most umpires do). The same goes for obvious "Safe" calls. No signal needed, except on close plays. A physical "Out" signal should be made on all outs recorded at any base, close or not. If it isn't close, and the runner is safe by a large margin, no "Safe" signal is necessary, since if the runner is not out, the only other choice is safe, and it is obvious to all that he's safe.

Now, you should be more confused than ever!:)

Mr. Agee, whether you give a hand signal or not when the situation is obvious is entirely up to you. What is more important in my judgment is how you give all your signals. I hope you will eschew the
'selling' and 'banging' histrionics which has become so popular among umpires today. Your decisions can (should) always be conveyed by a casual gesture. It is not for an umpire to add emotion to the play. Consider , if you will, what is being expressed when a PU does his merry dance on a called third strike. 'Punching out', so to speak. The act is an emotional outburst in praise of the pitcher' achievment. Why then should not the same __or a similar_dance occur on a called Ball Four which would acclaim the batter's great eye? Obtain a film of Chris Pelekoudas doing a National League game in the '60s. His casual and slow signals constituted an art form that is sadly missed today. McClelland and Froemming are as close to him as you can find among the current staff.

God, you really are OLD.

Tuss, try to remember that we use 21st century mechanics, not mid-20th. Nobody is advocating doing a "merry dance." I don't even know what that means. Perhaps what Leslie Nielsen did in Naked Gun, or something similar. but punching out a batter on strike 3 called is very standard accepted mechanics at any level, as is selling a close play. You never want to look casual on a close play. It looks very lazy, and apathetic, as do McClelland and Froemming on many bangers. Bangers are called bangers for a good reason, and calling them with strong emphasis is not an "emotional outburst," but rather a strong indication that you are very sure of your call.

I honestly have no idea what this old guy is talking about.

When I have seen old tapes of games in the 50s and 60s, you would see umpires go into convulsions to make an easy call. I really do not know what he is talking about when he claims that you do not need to make a call without a "dance." How adamant you need to be is another issue entirely if you ask me. This thread is about do you need a signal or not on plays that are obvious.

Peace

I don't do "a merry dance" to convey how good the players have just done. I do it so the coaches don't question every freakin close play I call. Although a casual out mechanic conveys the same meaning as a good, stiff, [U]controlled[U] bang out, the latter is used to convey confidence that we are 110% correct in our judgement. I can't believe we're talking about this!

Tuss, please, sell your close calls (either on the bases or behind the dish). I'm sure you already do, but don't let Old Timer get you thinking otherwise.

And Old Timer, please... I won't even go there....:rolleyes:

I can't help it... this has gotta be one of the most ridiculous posts I've ever seen!


Edited because I can't spell for beans!

LOL......

JThomas(Old Ump) from McGriffs has found this site.

And he still don't own any rulebooks- in any sport.:D

I love the old guys post. And I will use "his merry dance" reference in my upcoming clinics.

Classics stuff, and I respect his point of view. Me, I am a Ron Luciano fan. Shooting guys out at first from a knee, etc. No big punchouts, unless I have a big situation in a big game. I let the situation dictate the emotion of the call.

to signal or not
 

how about routine fly balls? do you guys signal anything. as a BU i used to give a very casual out signal, but a college guy got on my case for even that. he said that i shouldn't do anything unless there is some question - catch below the knee, etc.
if i'm PU and i have the ball i will casually tell my partner (who is watching the runner) that the ball was caught ("that's a catch, bill') but that is it.
i have some partners who scream 'catch' on every can of corn and i think it is a bit much. thoughts?

PBUC mechanic is not to signal anything on a routine catch, ect. I was working this year with one of the better umpires in the state (worked HS Division I chamionships, regionals, ect.) and he got on my case about not signaling routine outs when in B or C on fly balls hit to the outfield.

So, if there is question, do something. Always signal outs, not neccessarily safes.

Thanks for entertaining my question.

Some of mine
 

Tuss, I agree on the "no safe" call.

I use the Aunt Tessie logic (she was a character invented by my dad). When even Aunt T. in the stands knows he's safe, then don't bother. Too many "safes", IMHO, look amateurish. On the distaff side, cans o' corn on fly balls need no "out" call either.

Yes, I give a pianissimo verbal on swinging strikes. Dave Hensley beats me up about this, as will some of our other august members. I believe every pitch demands a verbal from PU, excepting obviously foul balls.

I also add a little emphasis to an unchecked swing or simpering bunt offer. I point with the left hand and say "He went," but not too loudly, more like mezzo-forte. I try not to overuse this, but I believe this can be a very good communicator.

In general, as age and level of players rise, less needs to be communciated by arbiters.

Gang, I saw Tuss (U3) put on a great show this year on a tetchy fair/foul down the LF line. I was U1 and needed his input as I cut into the infield to watch B-r touch 1B. It was a key spot in the game, and, if I recall correctly, a fair ball here would have changed the complexion of the game. Mayhaps he overdid it, but in sitches like this, I like overkill better than diffidence.

I think this is a really valuable thread. I'd like to see more of our members chime in on what mechanics they use and eschew.

Ace

I like a sotto voce on swinging strikes.:)

Signal when necessary ...
 

I think and teach that the most important thing an umpire does is often his signals. Players and coaches can't always hear an umpire (especially when there's a big crowd etc., )

However, I use the signal when necessary approach on pick off plays and other obvious.

But for a young umpire, if he wants to signal that's fine, I can get away with it while he can't.

But if a play demands a signal it needs to be there. Catch no catch always needs a "selling" signal especially in the outfield. (I've seen this happen in a state championship HS game that cost a team two outs simply because the umpire did NOT give a catch/no catch signal.)

But I've also seen guys who "overkill" every signal. Kind of like yelling foul on an obvious foul ball. I saw a guy on TV this weekend (LLWS) who was in LF flying like a bird on a ball that wasn't even close to being caught! Everyone knew it was a base hit so it demands nothing from the umpire.

Thanks
David

Dave -

I agree except one thing. If I was the LF Ump, I'd signal there, cause it may be my only chance in my time at Williamsport to do something!

Guy was probably bored out of his mind out there.

Gotta go with Hensley on the swinging strike. A silent finger-point is all I use.
Im a little on the opposite on the checkswing: I loudly say "yes, he did!" with an emphatic point for the benefit of the coaches and F2, since they other wise will be howling for an appeal if they dont know unequivocably that I already rung him up.

Otherwise I am right with you, Ace, on your comments.

Mechanics!
 

For me:

Obvious foul ball, a verbal "foul" (however I wait until it comes to a dead stop, hits fence, goes over fence)

Called strike: Simple "strike" voiced followed by proper arm mechanic
Swinging strike: Proper arm mechanic
Foul tip: Proper foul tip signal followed by proper arm mechanic
Check swing when batter goes: Point to the batter with verbal "yes he did" followed by proper arm mechanic
Bunt attempt strike: Point to batter with verbal "he attempted" followed by proper arm mechanic.
Usually don't do the "pull the string thing". Here's my reason. I don't keep track of big situations as fall as when is a good time to "pull the string" thing.
When on the plate and afly ball is my responsibility, a simple visual "out" or "safe" call", whatever the play calls for. I also verbal it loud enough for my partner to hear it.

When in the field, on a close play I may voice the call a little louder.

On a pick-off, if there's a tag, a simple safe/out, depending on how close the play is.

If there is no tag or tag attempt by the fielder, I don't make a call/sign.

On an obvious play by the defense, a simple out/safe, again depending on the closeness of the play.

Fly balls (my responsibility), a simple visual out call or safe call on a no catch/trap of ball.

I was once told by a veteran ump who has done several HS state tournament championship games and college ball as well, signal (either verbal or physical) something on every call.

George

This alone tells me All I need to know about you and your umpiring ability.

There are a couple of situations that do not need a mechanic or a verbal.
An obvious catch of a batted ball in flight, a foul ball batted directly back to the screen (or into the parking lot).

As far as the pull the string thing, if it is strike 3 looking, I'm ringin it up and selling it big. Most coaches teach to protect the plate with 2 strikes, if I don't sell this one, I think it leaves room for someone to think/say that I wasn't confident in my judgement.

Uncle George,
From your post it seems like you don't like to sell the close calls
but on routine plays you still use mechanics
I find this system very curious.

Wow!
 

I never dreamed I would ever say this:

3appleshigh noted:

"This alone tells me All I need to know about you and your umpiring ability."

I agree with what he has said, completely.

We have another candidate (Uncle George) to join my six man crew of the WORST internet umpires ever to post.

This means I know need to "trim" my crew.

Regards,

If I'm PU and working just two man and BU is coming in to watch the touch at first and take the runner, I'll give a soft "That's a catch, Bill" on a can of corn as a courtesy to keep him from wondering what the F is going on.

I heard that's what they are going to next year in Williamsport

What if the BU's name isn't Bill?

:D That's what pregames are for:

BU: Hi, I'm Kevin.
ME: No, you're Bill.

My abillity?
 

As I said, the VETERAN UMP said the state association wants a call, verbal or visual, on every situation where there was a play!

I'm not afraid of selling close calls. I belive that when you "sell the call", it most often brings out the coach to protest the call. It seems the closer the call, the louder you get, the trouble you're going to get into! You simply say "out" or "safe", head for you next position! What's the purpose/benefit of screaming the call? The runner is either out or safe. It's as simple as that!
Again, in my post, the VETERAN UMP said the state association wanted a call, either verbal or physical, on each play!

:eek: Am I going to lose my spot? :(


:D

IMO, selling the call emphatically is more likely to keep the coach in the dugout and not selling is more likely to invite a “conversation.”

I don’t know how much experience you have or what levels of ball you work, but let me offer some food for thought;
1) A veteran umpire in my association, when starting in the ‘A’ position, takes every play at first base in foul territory. :confused:
2) Another veteran umpire I know, when working the plate, insists on taking the batter-runner into second base if the ball is overthrown at first. That is, no runners on, ground ball batted to F6 who throws wild to F3 covering first base. This veteran insists that BU stay with the ball (to rule on in play/out of play) while PU hustles into the infield to rule on possible plays on BR. :confused:

I could go on and on....

Moral of the story- veteran doesn’t necessarily mean good or right.

There are a lot of veteran umpires who have one year of experience 30 times. And many college umpires are just available for Wednesday noon doubleheaders while others are at work.

I know what they teach at school. Routine fly balls caught above the waist are not given a visual signal.

FWIW, I think Uncle George is a troll, but I haven't figured out who, yet....

What's wrong with #2, other than "it's not how it's taught?"

I'm at the 45 foot line and can easily take the BR into second. You have to scramble to try to pivot in and get in position for a call at second.

My favorite veteran umps are the ones that still use a pillow and try to hide behind the catcher to call balls and strike.

Why do you need to pivot on this play? Hasn't BU already seen the BR touch first on the initial play? No pivot necessary. Besides that, isn't BU stationed in fair territory? This makes BU closer to second than PU. Also, PU is closer to the DBT boundry than BU.

Too effin' funny. Posts like this are why I still lurk here.

Ace

It sounds like these two guys should work all of their games together. # 1 can always work the bases, and # 2 always work the plate. Then # 1, who is in foul territory call stay with the overthrow, and # 2 can run merrily around the infield playing base umpire (and do a merry dance, too!)

How do you keep your chest to the ball if you don't turn towards it in some way?

As the PU I don't have to get to second. I just have to get in position to make a call. The BU has to decide whether he has time to get in front of the BR -- if not, he has to wait and then chase him to second.

I just find it easier to let the PU slide over to second and the BU can follow the ball. The BU doesn't have to actually get to the fence 99% of the time.

I'll do it the taught way taught, though I don't see anything wrong with this.

You don't need to keep your chest to the ball for every play, do you? I'm not being a smarta$$, that's a legitimate question.

I say No, you don't...

For example, on a base hit to the outfield, BU always turns his back to the ball. What's the difference?

Not always
 

In 2- or 3-man (when U3 goes out), the Sally Look (I believe that's what they called it in camp) is becoming acceptable when watching BR touch 1B as you're headed to the infield, anticipating a throw to 2B. We were told to look over our left shoulder at the BR touching 1B as we're cutting across. Yes, make it obvious so that the coaches and players see you looking.

It's not exactly Belly To The Ball, but it's not the idiotic pivot we were required to do for so long, either.

No troll here!
 

I'm not a troll, (whatever that means)! Just another 15+ year ump of high school and legion ball doing what he likes to do. No where in the thread did I say you had to agree with me. The ultimate end is getting the call right. So what if I soft sell the call and the coach comes out. He's going to get the same response from me, the ball beat the runner or the runner beat the ball, tag or no tag! It's that simple. Personally, umps who do some "show boating" are telling the people in attendance, look at me, I'm dah man in charge! I don't think the rule book says anyting about "show business" does it? Didn't think so! On the field, we're partners and I'll do my best, you do your best. If you need me, you call, if I need you, same thing. And if I'm ever working with you and you want to do the "acting thing", go right ahead, but don't look to me for an Emmy! All you'll get is "it's been nice working with you!

Come on, all together now:

I'm just a bill.
Yes, I'm only a bill.
And I'm sitting here on Capitol Hill.

Thank You, Schoolhouse rocks.

You really think that selling a close call with a "he got him!" and a punch out signal is "show boating?" Wow, what umpire school taught you this? You soft sell a bang-bang play around these parts, you'll soon be looking at a sub-varsity assignment sheet.

It's a simple call!
 

You don't have to scream it at the top of your lungs...you don't have to get down on one knee and let the whole complex know it. In most cases, you've got a coach at first base and the only ones who need to know that the batter-runner is out is the the batter-runner and the coach! Kiss it! (Keep it short and simple)!

If it's a simple call then there's no need for anything more than a subtle signal and low verbal call. If it's a banger, you need to sell it and turn around and head back to your position. In order to sell a banger, yes, you need to be demonstrative.


Tim.

Dude, are you just making this up as you go along?

Seriously, I have never heard anyone at any level suggest what you are saying.

Also to say no one needs to hear you, that is a bunch of crap. During timing plays you need to "yell" so that your partner is aware of when the last out has taken place so we can determine if a run counts or not.

BTW, umpires/officials are always noticed even when you think we are not. We get noticed the minute we enter the field. Do not think for a second no one sees who is working a game and make judgments about you before that game.

Peace

[QUOTE=JRutledge

Also to say no one needs to hear you, that is a bunch of crap. During timing plays you need to "yell" so that your partner is aware of when the last out has taken place so we can determine if a run counts or not.

Peace[/QUOTE]

Look, if the BU is making a call at second, his back is to the PU and hollering in the direction of the center fielder won't help at all. When I'm the PU and there's a timing play, I watch for the BU's signal, I don't listen for the call!

If I'm making a call at second on a timing play you can bet my partner can hear me when I make the call. The PU needs to be looking at the touch of the plate, not watching the BU!


Tim.

Tim,

Could this be our favorite friend from the other site back to haunt us?

How about we all JUST IGNORE HIM?

I'm familiar with him from the NFHS forum. I really don't think he's had much formal training from his association, either that, or he wasn't paying attention.



Tim.

Tee has actually given the correct answer on proper "timing play" mechanics on another thread started by TussAgee. Go check it out and see the exact proper way to handle this.

Okay.... now I get it. The games your doing have no scorekeeper, scoreboard operator and they keep no statistics. So you're working either coach pitch or Tee Ball. Keep your calls to yourself... :rolleyes:

Are you serious? The reason that many umpires get on one knee for a potentially close play is for stability, so their head and body are still, in order to make the correct call. Nobody gets down on one knee to call attention to themselves.

1 year experience 15+ times, I say.

Hey Chicken George, I think theres a NFHS Umpire's Manual that explains in what is expected from a "sell" call? Maybe you should read up on the subject . . .

LOL!!!!

Peace

Because on the base hit to the outfield, the BU is picking the ball up before it's thrown back in. If you're busting to second and F3 throws, are you able to follow the throw?

I've always thought that letting the PU cover second made sense because it's a leisurely stroll to second from an umpire already inside the diamond and at the 45-foot line.

Of course, many umpires don't bother coming up strong on grounders to the infield and it would be far more difficult for those guys to cover. Not saying any of those guys are on here, just making an observation of umpires I see where I live...

Getting down on a knee is a horrible habit, in my opinion.

I see guys do it on plays at first. On a bad throw that requires a lean and a look to get the swipe tag correctly, how do you do that from one knee?

And if you are waiting to read the throw before coming set, it's pretty hard to get on one knee set in time to make the call.

The guys on TV can do it because a vast majority of the throws are true. For those of us who may have to handle multiple swipe tags per GAME, it's better to use a standing set.

Despite that some MLB umps do take a knee on the bases, I have never heard one of them recommend it. One needs to be ready to adjust to the play, and as Rich has said, that requires "a lean and a look", sometimes, a step and a lean and a look...something that is not well performed from the knee.

I was just pointing out that the one knee stance was not to call attention to the umpire, as was stated. I have personally never done it.

b) Signal ONLY and ALWAYS when the Baseman tries to put a tag on. No matter how serious or lackadaisical the attempt was.

Thanks for the "input"!
 

It apparent that there are a lot of "umps" in this thread that:

A) Umpire because they want to be in controll of all situations!

B) Have a chip on their shoulder and are just begging someone to knock it off!

C) want the last word!

For me, not a controll freak, no ego's, no chips and could care less who has the last word!

But hey, that's me!

Au contraire. It tends to be quite the opposite. I've seen it. Many times. In my observations/evaluations of umpires this past spring (D-II and D-III games here), I saw more than once an umpire give a nonchalant or "normal" out call on a wacker at first base. Each time this resulted in significant griping or an outright argument. Oftentimes I heard the "Are you SURE?!?" from the dugout. Even I, as observer, instantly had a question in my mind as to whether that umpire got it right or not, and why? Because on such a close play his not being emphatic--selling the call--implied that he may not have been so sure of himself.

Oftentimes perception is more important than reality, whether we care to admit it or not.

I've always thought this made NO sense. You mean you're going to tell me a plate umpire should run across the diamond to cover the B-R going to second when the ball is overthrown to first??? No way! That's the base umpire's call all the way. The plate umpire's responsibility is the overthrow and it possibly going out of play. He drifts to his right toward the out of play area to see whether the ball goes through or over a fence or other border. What's the base ump to do if the PU went to second? Is the BU then going to cover the out of play: "Oh, excuse me, Mr. Batter-runner, while I cut across your running path to follow the ball out of play."

There is absolutely no way no how I'd ever consider covering second as the PU here. It just makes no sense whatsoever.

Ump25
 

For many, many years the professional mechanic was anytime the BU felt pressure and went to foul ground to make the call at first base the PU (who is working the inside of the first base line) was to release inside and cover plays that could happen at second or third. The BU would then cover a ball going out of play.

While I am not a proponent of this system it was used extensively previously in games of two man crews in lower levels of professional baseball.

I freely admit that since I have not attended a professional school in many years and have not worked (or watched) a lower level minor league game in years this system is probably no longer taught.

But it did make sense to SOMEONE in the past.

Regards,

Very good point!
 

The other thing is that the guys on TV don't have to worry about quickly moving to cover another base etc.,

All they have to do is call one base at a time since they have a four man crew.

In the real world with a two man crew there's too many things that can happen that I've got to be moving quickly.

Thanks
David

It makes more sense to say something like, "Excuse me Mr. Batter-Runner, I'm going to try to cut in front of you [as the BU] in order to take you to second base. But you'll react quickly to the bad throw and I'll have to wait for you and trail you. I may get there and set for a play at second."

It makes sense to me. It doesn't make sense to you. So what?

good mechanics
 

I beg to differ. What Rich states in his post is how its been covered in my games for at least the last 15 years.

The PU has a great view of the play and a great look at the play moving to second while BU will have his back to the play as he's busting to try and find a way to get to second and make the call.

And as PU it gives you something to do since you're already out in the infield.

Thansk
DAvid

As BU in 2-man, with multiple runners on, you may make 2-4 safe/out calls on a single play :cool: Gotta be hustling!

George, I want you to meet Mr. Hominem, first name Ad.

George-
I'm not one for a big ego, and I rarely insist on the last word. The reason you're getting so much grief is because you're offering advice such as

and

and

and

You should be aware that many rookie umpires visit internet forums to learn game management skills as well as mechanics because their local associations are lacking in their ability or desire to help young guys develop. Giving advice such as the nuggets above will only hinder an umpire's progress.

I'm not trying to chastise you here, but if 99% of the people are telling you that something you do is incorrect, accept that and move on.

"Sorry folks, the zoo is closing...next scheduled troll feeding is 11 AM" :D

Oh, I'm aware, Tim, that it used to be done a long time ago, but there's a reason why it's not done today, thank God. :)

Uh huh. The plate umpire will be trailing said B-R, and there's nothing that looks better than an umpire running after a baserunner and making a call from behind.

I don't know when they changed this mechanic--I went to umpire school in 1989 and it wasn't even remotely suggested then--but it sure makes sense that they did.

I also must say that in 29 years of umpiring, which, of course, doesn't make me perfect, I have never, ever seen this or worked with anyone who did this.

Hmm... we'd better have a longer pre-game, next time we work.

Generally, if I'm PU and BU is in:

(a) Fair territory -- I drift to the right and am prepared to take the ball and let BU take the BR to second.

(b) Foul territory -- I stay in fair and am prepared to take BR to second and let BU have the ball.

I honestly think there's no need for the PU to do this, but heck, it's no skin off my back if that's what you wish to do, Bob. ;)

What I say during my pregame is that...

If you need to even take one step out there to call fair foul down the line, I'll take the BR. By that time, you're trapped out there.

Bob,

Despite some protestations to the opposite, this is exactly what I see the recent PBUC grads do at the local Single A games.

This is also the mechanic I have used in three associations.

I have never heard of this coverage. Is it something new? According to Garth, this is the accepted mechanic from PBUC.

Whoa, big guy.

Don't miquote me. I have never been to PBUC. Some of our association members have, but I haven't been that fortunate.

What I said was: "this is exactly what I see the recent PBUC grads do at the local Single A games."

They may do cover this in pregame, or have come to agreement on it as a permanent crew, or have picked it up from wherever, or learned it at PBUC. I don't know why they do it. I can't even say all of the crews do it, as I only see about a dozen games a year.

However, the MiLB umpires that I see do it, are indeed first and second year grads.

This is the exact same coverage I was taught back in 1986, and it's the same mechanic we still use. Unless there is extreme pressure to first base, like a ball hit just out of F3's reach which F4 makes the play very close to the line, then U1 should always move into fair territory to make his call. I very rarely have a play at the HS level which requires me to go into foul territory.

There are some umpires who think it's just dandy to take most of their calls in foul territory, and to put the burden of running around the bases on an overthrow onto the PU. Boo creepy umpire, hooray beer!