Teaching the strike zone
 

I've read with interest the recent threads bashing the LLWS umpires -- particularly their strike zone. And I don't disagree with the general view that they're calling big and, worse, inconsistent zones. The bottom of the zone is a disaster, and the low outside corner is a mess. The top of the zone can be anywhere from belt to armpits. And this from the same ump, same batter, from pitch to pitch.

Rather than add to the bashing, though, I'd like to raise an issue that I bring up with my league and district peers and get consistently jeered. We all (I suspect) work with umpires who can't call a decent zone. The worst problems are at the bottom of the zone (IMHO). I've worked the rails in games where I stand there and watch "strikes" called on balls coming in mid-shin, and sometimes lower. I'm not talking about big breaking balls, either. These are fastballs kissing the dirt under the catcher's glove. I'm sure you see this yourself. The manager is in the coache's box at third just tearing his hair. These balls are unhittable (Ichiro can golf these low ones, but not 12-year-olds), and, frankly, I don't blame the coaches for complaining.

So here's the problem: Every time I bring up the issue of "teaching" the zone, I hear nothing but complaints. We spend hours at clinics going over mechanics and rotations, but when it comes to this most central part of the game (and a part defined by rule, no less), we hear things like "ah, your zone is your zone", and "just stay consistent and you'll be fine", and the all-time lame-brainer: "strikes are good".

Why don't we teach calling balls and strikes with the same rigor that we teach rotations? Or maybe you do? That's why the long post, because I'd like to hear from those of you who do provide (or have taken) clinics in calling the ball. How do you do it? How do you approach an otherwise dedicated and hard-working umpire and tell him his zone needs work -- and THEN provide a means for him to work on it?

I'll be interested in your views on this. I would very much like to begin a course of clinics in my leage and district, but it would be great to learn from experience first. Or do most of you go with the conventional wisdom that a zone is a zone so shut up and swing. I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts.

Teaching the zone
 

I firmly believe that you can and should teach it with the same rigor. Two basic points:

1. The key to a good (consistent) zone is a still head- still before (and therefore, long before) the pitcher releases the ball.

2. Go to camp. Have somebody critique your head, your feet, your timing, your eyes and your mechanics. Get yourself on tape and review the tape periodically.

You can't solve the problems of the LLWS blues, but if you belong to an association, you can make plate training a priority.

Strikes and outs!

You siad it earlier, "your zone is your zone".

However, to answer your question on teaching a zone, teach the benchmarks and hallmarks of calling the pitch. Track the ball all the way from the beginning of the pitchers motion all the way to the glove. Pause and read where the pitch was, then call the pitch.

There will be some who disagree with the following, however, this is how I have constructed, reconstructed, and modified my zone. I tend to use some easily recognized landmarks, and I rely on the catcher to make my job easier. This way if anyone complains, they can ask the catcher. Most catchers recognize my zone as fair, consistent, and neither a hitters or pitchers zone.

a) Call the zone of least resistance, use the catcher to help you decide the pitch. A pitch that bouces is virtually (99% of the time) a ball - exception is the big 12/6 curve that mirrors a slowpitch softball pitch.

b) The low end - hollow below the knees or at the knees. Use the catchers knees for a reference. Usually, in the squat, the catchers knees are between 2 and 4 inches below the batters knees. By using this reference point, if the catcher catches the ball at or above his knees, it's probably a strike assuming it between the inside and outside of your zone, otherwise if it's below - ball it. The obvious exception is the looping 12/6 curve or the sinking changeup that is gloved below his knees, but doesn't bounce into the glove.

c) The inside corner, if your in the slot properly, your nose should be an inch or two inside of plate. A ball caught that splits your nose is probably a strike if its between the top, bottom and outside corner, if its inside of your nose (batters side), ball it it's too far inside.

d) The upper end, use the batters elbows (preferable the front because it's infront of the batters body) or slightly below depending upon the level of ball (higher levels, you drop more below the letters, almost to between the elbows and the belly button). This should also be about where your head should be.

e) The outside corner, If you use the inch or two methodogy on the inside corner, mirror it on the outside corner. This is pure judgement here, but you can use the catcher again, if he reaches out for it and you see or smell the armpit, ball it, it's too far out.

f) Slow down, see the pitch, watch the catch, see if you can't read the mfg label on the glove every pitch, then make your call.

I hope this helps.

Calling balls and strikes will either make or break an umpire. I think it was Ron Luciano (sp) who said, “An umpire’s heaven is working third base. Home is where the heartache is.” Calling a good consistent zone is mandatory if an umpire is ever going to progress.

Most of the problems of having trouble with the low end of the zone come from setting up too low. Many people think that getting low helps them see the low pitch better. This is just not true. Setting up a little higher help you see the low pitches for what they really are.

As far as consistency, timing, timing timing. Many umpires who struggle with calling a consistent zone do so because they are too fast. Slow down, let the pitch hit the glove, and then decide. Another cause of inconsistency is ‘tunnel vision’. Some umpires don’t follow the pitch all the way through the zone and into the glove. The last good look they give some pitches (especially good tight breaking balls) is about 3-4 feet in front of the plate.

IMO, there is no substitute for seeing pitches. My association requires umpires to find a scrimmage or pre-season practice, and look at pitches. This helps shake off the rust and re-acquire good timing. We distribute a form letter for the umpires to take to the coach for explanation as to why umpires are contacting him. Most are more than willing to help out.

Now for the part of this post that I will be called out for. I call what I like to call “the strike zone of least resistance.” By that I mean I call the expected zone. If a catcher is set up 6” outside, and the pitch is belt high over the inside corner, I call it a ball. Why? Because it looks like a ball to everyone in the park. If the next pitch hits the catcher’s target, but he’s 3” outside, I call strike. Same reason, it looks like a strike to everyone in the park.

The previous statements are MY OPOINION ONLY.

Good Luck with your training course.

I was confronted with a room full of "My zone is my zone" guys one year as well, and I'd seen these guys do exactly as you say. We discussed at a preseason clinic once, and I decided to film each umpire once during a scrimmage. Then we ALL watched all the films before the season started. You'd be surprised at the eyes that were opened.

It was a nice training tool, as guys could see themselves moving their bodies to track a pitch, call a pitch too early, and yes ... call that ankle strike (and sometimes oversell that ankle strike three).

I think ALL of our zones (self included) improved that year, and we now do it every year. We watched the first year one (5 years ago) recently and all got a good laugh from it. It's amazing to see the difference now.

This is a great idea and I am going to suggest it to my fellow Umpire Development Committee members at our next meeting.

Good idea, and good advice. Yes, the problem is TEACHING the zone. It's extremely odd to me that this is the one area of umpiring where everyone is given the guidlines (many repeated in the posts above), but then nevery really TAUGHT.

Using video is a really good idea. Another idea is to set up a session with pitchers and catchers and stand-in "hitter", then position umps at various positions around the plate, then let the one behind the plate call balls and strikes, with those in various positions also calling on the planes -- that is, those on the side calling high/low, and those in front/behind calling in/out. It would be interesting to see how much agreement there was with respective views. The "plate ump" calls 20 or so pitches, adjusting against the group consensus. Then everyone rotates. Just a thought -- ANY thought -- to provide more tools.

Thanks for the inputs ...

Nick:
 

I am not sure you can teach an art.

Balls and strikes is a fine line between science and art and I lean towards art in the equation.

When Doug Harvey was asked: "What's your strike zone?"

His answer was: "If I like it, it is a strike!"

Some posters here take umbrage at that type answer.

In teaching a strike zone you can only give guidelines. We know there is a book strike zone -- some here will tell you that is what you call (even a curve ball that passes through the strike zone and bounces before a catcher can catch it) PERIOD!

Others know that a strike zone resembles an egg. There are holes in a zone that an experienced umpire working upper level baseball don't call.

We all know that umpires FAIL because of poor base work . . . we also know you make your name and career through your plate work.

Nick when I started umpiring if an umpire missed 10 pitches in a game he was considered REALLY good. Now if a miss ONE PITCH at a crucile time I am considered a Smitty!

Another good way to continue to learn the strike zone is to play a game we play in my area called "Up and Down". This is a game played with your base umpire(s). At then end of the game they tell you how many pitches they thought you called Strikes that appeared to be balls (UPS) and how many pitches you called balls that appear to them to be strikes (DOWNS). This system really works to make you think through what really hapopened during your game.

And as I always intone: Nothing does more for learning than to keep a journal of EVERY GAME you umpire and making a critical part of that journal a fair evaluation of your balls and strikes for a plate game of that day.

I agree with Tee that calling strikes is an art. And like most other artistic endeavors, one learns the mechanics of the art, then the creativeness, or the "art=part" that comes from within, has an avenue to express itself.

So it goes with calling balls and strikes. Teach the mechanics. Then re-teach the mechanics.

Everyone thinks they know the mechanics, but they don't. They may have forgotten. They may have never learned. They may have learned and forgot to use them.

Mechanics.

I've done this for most of the time since 1972. I attended clinics or camps with Doug Harvey in the 70's, top D-1 clinicans and Gerry Davis in the 90's and Jim Evans in the 2000's. Until attending a Desert Classic, I thought I was calling a great strike zone. I had listened and done what I was told.

At Evans, I was amazed at what I had forgot and what I never really did.

The season after that camp I heard comments like: "That was most consistent plate we've seen all year" and "Jesus, Garth, you've become one of the best plate guys we have."

Now, at first I thought, "Hell, was I that bad before?" And as one of our proschool grads told me, no, not bad before, just a hell of lot better now, consistently."

Mechanics allow umpires to do their jobs. Excellent, consistent mechanics are required to do excellent, consistent work.

Will excellent mechanics make everyone better? Yes.
Will they make everyone excellent? No.

But even a great creative sculptor can't create squat without knowing how to use his tools.

Mechanics are our tools.

I am all for locking in with a consistent strike zone, but how do you guys handle it when you are bouncing among age groups? I did everything from high school ball down to low division 12U this past summer and if I called a high school strike on the young guys, we'd set a record for walks!

In fact, I had one triple-header day where I had the plate for a high school division first, then switched to the bases, then finished up with a plate at a low 13U game and I have to tell you, it took me a couple of innings to adjust my zone back out for the younger guys.

Any secrets one can share to help me when that happens again (and it will, the local league supers know that I love doing the games and will fill in at whatever level they need!)?

Strikes are good.

You're never too old to learn!
 

I've been doing this for 15-years and after a game I was discussing strikes and balls with an ump who has been doing it a lot longer than me. At one point I ask him if my high strike call was too high. His advice on the high strike, if the pitch is caught above the cathers head, it's more likely to be a ball, rather than a strike. One at catchers head height, 50% right, 50% wrong! I've also had problems with calling the low strike and with the information about the cathers knees being a measuring stick, that's going to help me! Guy, keep up the discussions and suggestions...in most cases it makes us all better!

George

I think the best thing to do is to start with your HS zone then see what the kids can do. If necessary, expand it a bit. When I work HS and LL, the top and bottom of my zone is pretty much the same, about 4" above the belt, the hollow beneath the knee.
If you need to expand in and out for the kiddies, that's not too hard to do. You may have some strikes in the 3rd that were balls in the 1st, but there are only 2 people in the park who won't like that... the batter and the batter's mother.
Around here, the new guys do most of the LL stuff. They tent to not to call as many strikes. It's so unusual for an umpire to actually call strikes on the little guys that by the second at bat they're swinging anyway.

Plate Game
 

Hey guys. I am here in Williamsport. I was taken out of the LLWS rotation due to illness which landed me in the Hospital up here from Friday - Monday. I received a visit from Mr. Keener who personally invited me back to umpire next year.

I have been reading all the comments and I think for the most part they are fair. While most everyone is doing their best, some simply were more ready then others.

As for the strike zone, I know my zone improved tremendously after having an experienced umpire critique my game. His #1 comment was my timing. He told me I needed to do a better job of tracking the pitch to the mitt with my eyes (not my head). Sounds simple, but to a lessor experienced umpire, it made my game better and more enjoyable. After doing a dozen or so games I realized I was missing the most important part of the pitch. The finish!!!

"a) Call the zone of least resistance, use the catcher to help you decide the pitch. A pitch that bouces is virtually (99% of the time) a ball - exception is the big 12/6 curve that mirrors a slowpitch softball pitch."

Sorry, if it bounces, I don't care if is Barry Zito. Ball. 100%.

As for teaching the zone...I would say the resistence is from stubborness. Umpires as a group are perhaps the most resistent to criticism as any group. People need to be more open minded to get past the, "strikes are good" and "my zone is my zone" mentality.

The only way you can learn is from experience. Call some strikes, gauge the response. Nobody chirps? Try going further. Too far? Too much yelling? Reign it in a bit. Challenge yourself. Even the best miss pitches. The best advice I can give is twofold:

1) Lock your head position, track the ball all the way to the mitt.

2) Good timing means DECIDING late(r), not just pausing more.

"Good timing is proper use of the eyes."

(Beat you to it, Tee :D )

I agree, I was just trying to simplify it.

Getting a good strike zone is a result of:

1. Timing
2. Good Positioning
3. Learning how to "work with your catcher". Eg. A borderline low pitch with the glove down is a ball, same pitch with the glove up is a strike, if the ball pops out of his mitt it's a ball. This applies only to higher level games. High School Varsity on up.
4. Getting feedback from your partner. He can be especially helpful on high and low pitches.
5. Doing lots and lots of games.


I know if I miss an obvious ball or strike it's usually because of poor timing.

Super Post
 

Tim,

A great post about the "art" of calling balls and strikes.

One of the best things I've learned through the years is to constantly monitor myself also as you suggested.

By allowing that critique, it often keeps me from falling back into a bad habit.


One thing I've learned from my journals is that most of the time I had a bad game, I bounced back the next by concentrating on my mechanics.

They are great guidelines.

Thanks
David

Good luck with your 10U games then... Call me when your game ends... better call me at home - I will have eaten and showered by then.

My 10U games? I don't do 10U games, sorry bucko.

If you routinely call pitches that bounce into the catchers glove strikes around here, the highest you'd advance is Middle School (maybe JV on a busy day) games.

Unless the catcher is ten feet behind the plate, you wouldn't even be calling 10U games around here, unless, of course, you were a volunteer umpire working Little League.

Some people are missing the point. 99% of the time a pitched ball that bounces is a ball, but on those "rare," and I mean "rare," occasions where a pitcher floats a 12/6 curve (you could call it a gravity pitch), that goes 10 to 12 feet above the ground, then drops, hits the ground 12 to 18 inches behind the plate and immediately short hops into the catchers glove because he didn't reach out to glove it, is a strike IMO. It's thrown overhand, but looks identical to an underhanded softball pitch. The ball is belt high over the middle of the plate and if they don't swing, call it for what it is a strike.

Granted, there are very few who can actually throw this "junk" with any consistency, however, I have come accross a couple of gentlemen in the mens senior league that I do, that can. Everyone knows it passed right infront of the batter, all they have to do is stick the bat out and hit it.

Nope!
 

"Some people are missing the point."

I would contend that NONE of us are missing anything schik:

I would never intentionally call a pitch a strike that bounced before it was caught by F2.

If you did around here (pdxblue may want to chime in here) you'd be working non-varsity games the rest of your career.

A pitch that bounces before being caught is not a strike -- ever, at any level of shaving aged players.

Sorry, that's the facts .

Regards,

I called a curve (that went throught the strike zone) that hit just behind the plate in a Varsity game once. While I wasn't relegated to sub-varsity for it, had I continued the practice, I would have no doubt been demoted soon. The coach was all over my butt for calling it, and I never forgot the lesson.

Any pitch caught with F2's mitt on the ground is a ball.

Quote:

Originally Posted by NickG I've read with interest the recent threads bashing the LLWS umpires -- particularly their strike zone. And I don't disagree with the general view that they're calling big and, worse, inconsistent zones. The bottom of the zone is a disaster, and the low outside corner is a mess. The top of the zone can be anywhere from belt to armpits. And this from the same ump, same batter, from pitch to pitch. Rather than add to the bashing, though, I'd like to raise an issue that I bring up with my league and district peers and get consistently jeered. We all (I suspect) work with umpires who can't call a decent zone. The worst problems are at the bottom of the zone (IMHO). I've worked the rails in games where I stand there and watch "strikes" called on balls coming in mid-shin, and sometimes lower. I'm not talking about big breaking balls, either. These are fastballs kissing the dirt under the catcher's glove. I'm sure you see this yourself. The manager is in the coache's box at third just tearing his hair. These balls are unhittable (Ichiro can golf these low ones, but not 12-year-olds), and, frankly, I don't blame the coaches for complaining. So here's the problem: Every time I bring up the issue of "teaching" the zone, I hear nothing but complaints. We spend hours at clinics going over mechanics and rotations, but when it comes to this most central part of the game (and a part defined by rule, no less), we hear things like "ah, your zone is your zone", and "just stay consistent and you'll be fine", and the all-time lame-brainer: "strikes are good". Why don't we teach calling balls and strikes with the same rigor that we teach rotations? Or maybe you do? That's why the long post, because I'd like to hear from those of you who do provide (or have taken) clinics in calling the ball. How do you do it? How do you approach an otherwise dedicated and hard-working umpire and tell him his zone needs work -- and THEN provide a means for him to work on it? I'll be interested in your views on this. I would very much like to begin a course of clinics in my leage and district, but it would be great to learn from experience first. Or do most of you go with the conventional wisdom that a zone is a zone so shut up and swing. I'll be interested in hearing your thoughts.

You received good advice thus far and I will add this.

Before one can become better at something they must first understand what they are doing wrong.

How is this accomplished?

If at all possible see if someone can tape you behind the dish to get a good look at your mechanics. Once you see what you are doing wrong then you can work on correcting it.

Also, what's missing even in PRO ball is a good solid mentoring program. I was fotunate enough to have good mentors in my career. Also, as an umpire you must set aside your "ego" and be willing to take constructive criticism to help you.

The best advice I received about the strike zone came from Jon Bible who recommended that you treat the strike zone as a "window" and if the ball hits the window it's a strike.

That philosophy has helped me become more consistent because it takes the "guess" work out of calling the so called "border-line" pitches.

As for LL, the strike zone varies because during the regular season where there is not the talent level we are seeing on TV one tends to have a bigger zone. Also, I believe the LL definition of the strike zone is bigger to begin with.

Pete Booth

Are you saying a ball at the bottom of the strike zone when it crosses the front of the plate and drops below the catcher's knees when he catches it is a ball??? I personally don't care where he catches it - where was the pitch when it enters the strike zone? That's my key. (IMHO)

Hahaha
 

That is EXACTLY what we are saying:

Through "usage and tradition" a pitch, even though it passes "through" the strike zone, that bounces before caught by F2 is a BALL . . . now tell me that is wrong, come on tell me!

You claim "NCAA" in your signature . . . don't disappoint me!

Regards,

At the lower levels, I'll call a pitch a strike if it crosses as a strike but is caught like $#!t... but at higher levels (HS and up) if F2 butchers the pitch, I'm not gonna call it. If I do, guarenteed someone is pi$$ed in the dugout, and I will hear about it. Call the zone of least resistance... JMHO

First of all - I call NCAA Softball. I came into the baseball threads because of the LL stuff. Secondly, I didn't say "BOUNCE", I said caught below the catcher's knees. Thirdly, I assure you that if the ball that passes through the strike zone and bounces will be called a STRIKE.

Are you disappointed?

Nah,
 

You're a Little League Guy and a freakin' softball umpire and that means . . .

Well I look to "real" umpires for information.

Your "handle" needs work son . . . you are NOT an NCAA umpire.

Regards,

On what planet?

A pitch that bounces into the catcher's mitt is a ball, at all levels. It is amazing to me that we have discussion on the subject.

Hehehe
 

Come on DG he works SOFTBALL.

He wouldn't have an idea about real umpiring.

Regards,

heh.



Guess it's time for me to go to the Softball section and spew incorrect baseball information over there. :rolleyes:


Ridiculous.

How do you call the pitch that crosses the front of the plate and then <b>rises</b> out of the strike zone?:confused:

I've read here that that happens every now and then.

Okay, you call NCAA softball and you are interested in LL. And the point is.......... ?

Not always a good thing to do in baseball. But if you do call it that way, you better call it that way the whole game. Of course, your NCAA Baseball assigner will not be giving you too many more D1 games anymore. Better resolve yourself to being a D3 umpire!

Which tells me that you have "tunnel vision" when calling balls and strikes. What that means is once the pitch reaches a certain point in flight, you mentally close down. Oh, you may track the pitch, but registration is over - you've already made up your mind. One more thing, your NCAA Baseball assigner has just demoted you to your local High School Board. You are now qualified to do HS Varsity!

With you as an NCAA official, yes! But I understan now why you have an interest in LL - you will soon be calling at that level!

WOW, such venom. I never realized how much baseball umpires hate softball. Around here we joke about it, but I think you guys are serious. I pity you. Life is just to short to get personal and attack people about this stuff. You guys know NOTHING about me and base ability on one statement. Get real!

Dear Larry:
 

If you are a softball umpire we know all we need to know about your ability.

Regards,

KISS theory!
 

Your question has been answered; however, I just wanted to add again that the pitch you described should be called a ball everytime.

Now, we see this pitch called a strike very often, (seen it a lot on TV lately); however, you won't see that pitch called a strike in baseball.

As I often describe it, small ball is a different world with umpires who often just want to go home, help out a local league, etc.,

If you make the kids throw strikes, they will learn to throw strikes. If we reward them by calling balls a strike, we have taught them nothing.

Thanks
David

David, thanks for your kind response. A breath of fresh air. I don't disagree with you on making them call strikes. Again, it may be a difference in the two sports, but if a ball passes through the strike zone, I'm confused how it can be anything else. Are we basing it on where everyone perceives it to be because of where it's caught? In baseball maybe it should be called a ball everytime. In softball there's no way that's called a ball. With pitching from 43' and the spin and speed of a change-up in softball, it can very easily hit the strike zone and drop to the catcher's feet. If I call that a ball in a college game I assure you I'd be back in HS in no time. I guess it's the difference between two sports.

My mistake was comparing two different sports. I realize that most baseball and softball umpires ride each other about their respective sports but some of these people take it to another level. Some good natured ribbing can be fun - but my gosh, some of you hate me because I umpire softball. Get a life! I don't think you are a horrible person because you umpire baseball nor do I think you are a horrible umpire because some of you are an a$$. Shoot, I don't even think you are horrible because you call the pitch in question a ball. I was just trying to explain why I think it's a strike - in my sport.

Sorry to have offended some of you. David, again, thanks for at least being civil.

Get ready...
 

It sound like to me that you guys who are afraid to say "strike" to a pitch that passes through the strike zone don't have the nad's to stand behind the plate! It's a frickin' strike if the pitch passes through the rule book strike zone for God's sake! If you're calling balls and strikes just to keep out of a
confrontation with the coaches, YOU should be doing 10 & under ball! I've been doing this for a mere 15-years and not once have I called a pitch that goes through the strike zone, then short hops the cather a ball! I never have and I never will! Now, some of you will say, well you'll never advance in this business. Look, if comprimising the rules of the game are what I need to advance, what's that say for you guys who do comprimise the game? Pretty darn bad if you ask me! The umpires job is to make sure the game is played fairly by both teams. That's it! Don't make up your own rules and call the game the way the rule book says to! OK guys, lock and load! I've got the target taped to my back! Go ahead, aim and fire!

No need, LMan - plenty of folks over there doing that already.

Larry - assuming your signature is correct, and you really do call NCAA softball and LL Baseball, surely you recognize a significant difference in the games. Heck, I call them different sports. You (as I assume you know) really have to truly have a different mindset in each game.

However ... all of that said - unless you're working youth ball or calling an eephus pitch, you are going to have trouble advancing if you consistently call a pitch that you perceive as skimming the bottom of the zone before bouncing into the catcher's glove a strike. Seriously. I work mostly upper level FED and ASA softball but have filled in at NCAA level - I can't remember calling a bounce-pitch a strike at that level. I also suspect that if you did, and then saw that pitch on tape, you'd realize it was actually low.

You can be forgiven when you call a hittable ball outside the zone a strike. You might get yelled at by the coach, but you're not going to damage your career. And if you are consistent with it, they will swing at it. But when you call an UNhittable ball outside the zone a strike, you're going to hear about it from every angle, and possibly hurt your career if you don't correct this error.

I gave one poster a hard time far above for making the blanket statement that ALL bouncers are non-strikes, trying to point out that at 10U or even bad 12U (either baseball or softball), you will have MANY bouncing strikes. But above this level, it should not happen. And while you may defend your position that "if it goes through the zone, it's a strike", I would maintain that the physics of the situation dictate that if it bounced, it was almost definitely NOT actually in the zone. Another good use of film if you are calling these pitches strikes - take a look at what your pitch looks like from another angle and you may agree that you are missing these pitches.

I'm not going to freak out or anything, I'm just going to try to respond to your opinion with a little bit of my reasoning.

If a pitch passes through the strike zone but is caught in an unorthodox manner (ie bounces into F2's mitt, caught with F2's mitt on the ground, ect.), I will not call said pitch a strike. My reasoning is not so much based on advancement, but on trying not to have a $#!thouse in my game.

Everyone (F1, F2, Batter, Both managers and my pard) expect that I 'ball' this pitch. If I do call a strike (which by rule is the correct call), I plant a seed of doubt in everyones mind about my ability. Next thing you know, belt high, waist-one pitches on 0-2 counts that are 8" outside but are hitting their spots that I 'ball' are now bringing heat because I called that bouncing pitch that appears to have been low a strike. Next inning the ball beats the runner to the plate but F2 misses the tag, the coach is already convinced that I suck, so here he comes! Now I run him and I'm up 'til 1:00 a.m. filling out a report, all because I called a strike on that pitch that bounced into F2's glove.

If you believe it's better to call it a strike, more power to ya! Not me. No thanks, I'll stick to balling that one every time...;)

I don't do baseball - period. I have filled in on occasion but it's been several years. I agree, different sports. This has now become a softball thread and we should probably spare the guys in this forum, but hey, they are big boys and can handle it.

If you call the levels you claim in softball and haven't seen a change-up that can cross the strike zone and be caught at the catcher's feet you aren't seeing good pitching. With dropballs and change up's coming from 43' it's very conceivable. I find it funny you talk about me having trouble advancing. I have not been at this as long as many people - I still am learning, trust me on that. I've only been an umpire for 6 years. I'm in 2 DII conferences and fill in for some DI. You are acting like it's something that I claim happens every inning or every game - but if the ball passes through the strike zone (in softball) it is a strike. How can you call it anything else? How do you explain that to the coach that says "it was in the strike zone" - do you say "Yep, but it bounced!" That might fly in baseball, but not in softball.

Last time I checked, a ball that passes through the strike zone is a hittable ball. According to your theory, if a curve ball hits the corner and ends up 8 inches outside of the zone, it's a ball - right? I mean the same principle has to apply. I would guess, according the theory given here there are no corners to a strike zone.

So now you are a physics teacher? Again, I say if you have never seen this happen, you aren't working high level softball. They are constantly wanting to scratch the outer limits of the zone and have the ball quickly run out of the zone. That's pitching.

I'll keep calling them my way and you keep calling them your way and if we ever meet, we'll argue it over a cold one!:D

This is a strike because it's expected to be called a strike. It looks like a strike to everyone. That's the difference.

Larry, Larry, Larry
 

No one has said they "hate you".

Not at all . . . that is an exageration.

A softball umpire should stay where his comfort zone is -- on the softball board.

Umpiring skills used to work girls softball are far different than those of baseball.

We are strongly influence by what Jim Evans calls "tradition and usage" (exactly like the legal system of the USA) and therefore there is a difference betwix what actually happens and what is called. I wouldn't expect a "robot" NCAA girls softball umpire to recognize that difference.

All I am saying is let "real umpires" answer questions . . . next you'll tell us that "Uncle George" has correctly identified this situation.

Again, I suggest that you post about things of which you know.

Regards,

Gimme a few minutes and I'll come up with "baseball vs water polo" officiating analogy so we can get completely off-topic.

Why in the HE77 are we comparing one totally different sport to another here?

Sure, they both have a strike zone, but the ball moves differently, and the expectations of the strike zone are different. Sorry, but that's reality.

Sure, we have basically the same mechanics, but I will get drilled in my evaluations if I make a 2-part strike call, look robotic on the stick or on the bases, or call a humongous deuce that busts off and ends up almost in the dirt a strike. Not gonna happen at the levels I work.

Let's stick to baseball here, y'all.

The last time I saw anyone consistently throw strikes that bounced at the catcher's feet was Gaylord Perry. And we know now he did that. Now that he's long retired I haven't seen a pitch fall THAT fast off the table in many years.

When can we discuss the singing and chanting of the players that is different between the two sports? You know, the "s-i, s-i-n, s-i-n-g-l-e, SINGLE--Rachel!"

Hahahaha
 

Potw!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CTBLU, on the other hand, if the coach of the pitcher see's it go through the strike zone and the ball short-hops the catcher, he's gonna give you @*ll as well! For me, coach comes out and complains, I just say, ball through the zone first, it's a strike. Once I've set the ground rules, I have no more problems as long as I continue to call it that way! I'm not affraid of running a coach. I give him his say, I give him mine and we play on. The coach knows what'll happen if he continues to %)$ch about balls and strikes! He's gone. It's as simple as that.

To paraphrase that comedian: I don't care who you are...that there is funny!

By the way: Even with Ques-Tec: MLB does NOT expect their umpires to call a "strike" on a pitch that nicks the bottom of the zone and then lands in the dirt, or is smothered by the catcher in the dirt. MLB evaluators will override the machine, and consider an umpire who called "ball" to have adjudged correctly.

lawump
________
PBUC (former); NCAA; NFHS; Am. Leg.; AAU; KGB; FBI; ASPCA; ACLU; NRA.

Hey Lawump - how does the ACLU let you be a member of the NRA, and vice versa??

Just being a wise ***. I thought someone would have noticed the KGB/FBI cites first.

I started to reply in like manner but I realized that stooping to your level wouldn't do any good. It's people like you, with your condecending attitude, that accentuate the hostilities between the two sports. I do pity you.

Maybe in softball or 8U youth leagues, but in baseball what you would hear is the coach telling the catcher: "Move up, you gotta catch those to get the stirke."

Does "ADA" stand for the Americans with Disabilities Act?

What would you say if went to the softball forum and argued endlessly that the LBR doesn't exist in practice? I suppose you would let that go :rolleyes:


A while back I made the mistake of lurking on the SB forum and posting what I thought were answers to rules questions...not realizing the differences (in these rules) b/w baseball and softball. I was corrected in short order! :o

Did I immediately throw a GD hissy fit and cry like a spoiled baby about the 'hate' on the SB board? I think not.

I apologized for posting on rules/tradition/accepted practices I knew nothing about. I overstepped and corrected myself. Hint?

Why don't you grow up a little and learn? Or hit the road....

I think I (early on) admitted the difference between the two sports and that there were obvious differences between acceptable calls. I can handle correction - it's being treated like I'm sub human because I umpire softball rather than baseball that I cannot ignore. I don't remember you being treated like a child for umpiring baseball. I do remember you apologizing for coming to the SB world but I don't remember the exact post. I certainly hope I didn't treat you like a child. I wasn't attacked for having a different opinion but for umpiring a different sport.

That was VERY grown-up sounding . . . great way to make a point.

Granted, my reeding abilities sho aint what they used tuh be, but I do believe y'all wuz called out (not attacked) for bringing yer bigball stuff into this here baseyball forum.

and ... Puhleeze escuze the speelling of my poast becuz I am a lowley baseyball umpir.

All I'm saying ... either sport ... is that unless you are doing kiddos, that if the pitch hits the ground and you THOUGHT it went through the zone, it probably didn't. Film yourself if you disagree - you'll be surprised. I've seen great changes in softball, and I've seen wicked cutters in baseball...

But if the pitch nicked the strikezone, even at the very bottom of the zone, and the very front of the plate, and managed to, within 2 feet, hit the ground in front of the catcher, it would be going in a direction that is nearly impossible to get a ball to go in.

Mccrowder - next you'll be telling us that fastballs don't rise!

George,

The only way the coach of the pitcher could see the pitch you described go through the strike zone is if he's standing on my shoulders or hidden in my ball bag... I'm carrying my partner already, he's heavy enough!

And for me, if a coach steps 1 foot out of the dugout to argue balls and strikes, I run him. I set the ground rules by calling the expected strike zone... what's so hard about that? :confused:

You're right ... they don't. :)

What? You explain the rules to the coach? For the rest of us, when the coach comes out to complain about the strikezone, we ask him who's in charge now and tell him we hope his view of the zone is as good from the parking lot.

George - before you continue to beat this dead horse, I BEG you to ask a buddy to film yourself. I GUARANTEE that these strikes you're so sure of that hit the ground before the catcher can catch them are NOT strikes. I can't tell you what's wrong with your stance that makes you think they are strikes without seeing you - but perhaps you can see that from your film too.

(Note - if you're calling 10U, I take it all back!!)

Oh! I figgered the "ASPCA, ACLU, NRA" were BECAUSE OF the "KGB, FBI..."

The one thing a pitch that bounces cannot be is a called strike. It can be anything else. I also echo lawumps Q-Tec statement, I've too been told this by a big leaguer.

Guys, thanks for the input!
 

For Mcrower and CTblue40, thanks for the input of getting someone to film me behind the plate, I'll do that. It can only help. As for me doing 10 & under, not anymore! At that age some of the coaches act more like kids than the kids do! As I said in my first post, I've taken the cathers knees location as a point of reference. Look, I've only been doing this 15 years and the more I read and listen to guys who do more games and have been doing it longer, in most case, I get good feedback that'll only improve me. Anyone else got any "tricks" when it comes to umpiring. As someone once said, you're never to old to learn!

Thanks Guys
George

Occasionally I like to make coaches disappear.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/81.gif

If you were to ask Coaches and Fans about umpires teaching other umpires the Strike Zone, they would say it is impossible. Why, because none of us knows where it is ! :D

The fact is, you can't just teach the location of the Strike Zone (SZ).

You have to teach how to Call Pitches.

Many of us have argued that there is more to a Strike or Ball than the flight of the ball. The SZ is an ever moving target for each batter. It is effected by the Catcher, and sometimes, even the Batter.

I never just teach a new umpire the SZ, I always teach them "The Art Of Calling Pitches".