Pitch count strategy in Little League
 

According to this USA Today article, pitch counts are being considered due to injury from overuse of the "golden arms".

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baseb...injuries_x.htm

I say it is about time LL got involved. There are far too many idiot coaches and parents who have no clue what they are doing to their kid’s arms. I watch a lot of little league play during the summer months and it just kills me to see these kids being trotted out there day after day, throwing 90-100 pitches with 40 breaking balls. Hell I don’t even let some of my high school pitchers throw that much.

I'm sure Little League will have no provision about finishing the current batter, so we'll have pitching changes galore in the midst of at bats.

Goin on for a long time
 

High school and other leagues have been talking about this for a long time, but I just don't see it happening.

There are simply too many parents (coaches) who don't care when it comes down to it.

Our HS state guys have been talking about something like that for years since one guy pitched in all three of the games in 5A state playoffs a couple of years ago.

Thanks
David

Having worked a Little League this year that was one of the 500 or so leagues nationwide participating in the experimental rule, I can tell you that these coaches provided for finishing AB's for that very reason. They would say, "okay, Johnny's almost at his pitch count, last batter," or words to that effect. Im not sure if it is included in the language of the rule, but this league was all over it like a hobo on a ham sandwich.:)

Some youth league and high school pitchers are allowed to throw more pitches than the professionals. I'm affiliated with a Class A Minor League team team, and pitchers are normally held to 80 pitches or less. Even MLB pitchers rarely throw 100 in a game. And these are adults.

Bob

Rich,

Rules for the pitch count test the past two years permit a F1 to finish the batter when they reach the maximum allowed pitches.

Pitch counts year 1 were Major Div only. This year the test was for all divisions. A little tuning and it should be ready in 2007 for all leagues.

From what LL has published internally, pitch count test leagues have seen most managers pull F1 between innings when they have <10 pitches left (IMO is a good thing).

This will be a huge benefit to the kids. I once saw an 8 year old throw 145 pitches in a game. :eek:

Link to the 2006 test rules:

http://www.littleleague.org/media/Pi...ulation_06.pdf

IMO I would like to see one more group: U8 with 65 pitches per day.

I guess I just don't get. Little League already has inning limits in place, and I don't see any persuasive reason why gaining the precision of pitch limits instead of inning limits will save Timmy's arm from being abused.

I predict the new pitch count rule will cause some pretty serious regular season problems in leagues that are run mostly by, if you'll excuse the expression, people who don't cypher all that good. I tink they should offer it as an optional rule, not mandate it from on high after the fairly limited testing they've done.

Dave as an LL umpire and former player, i agree with you. The pitch count rule i think is stupid. LL has never had it in the 60 years of the program. I dread next year if im the umpire and something comes up. No wonder some people wanna go away from the LL program. :mad: Who even came up with this idea. More work for everybody. I havent seen any problems with out the pitch count rule. So why screw up already bad rules. :confused:

Simple:

1. Because too many dumb $%%##& managers let kids go 120+ pitches, including breaking balls.

2. Innings mean next to nothing at this age - it's number and type of pitches that ruin the arm.

3. LL counted pitches at the regiona and WS level a couple years ago and were stressed over what they saw. As I recall at least half the kids who went 6 innings threw 100+ pitches. Wasn't it the FL team who let the kid go close to 140?

Keeping track is easy. Our local league uses the $7.95 click counters & record the total each inning. Zero issues in two years.

Posisitve note is zero kids out with injured arms from over use and 25% more kids being developed as pitchers.

Where's the documentation that proves 70 pitches is safe, but 125 pitches ruins a pitcher's arm?

Where is anything other than anecdotal, urban legend type stuff, showing significant, lasting arm injury in 12 year olds who have pitched WITHIN existing Little League inning limitations?

Where's the documented, proven problem the pitch-count rule is going to solve?

The way I understand it is that it wont go by innings, it'll be total pitches. So according to that, you could go more than 6 innings if you are under the pitch count.

Its a great thing.

The rule, if you look at it, will allow more kids to be pitching, which may cause for less good pitchers, but more kids get the chance, which is great.

Also, individual kids will be pitching less. Look for LL to outlaw the curveball in the coming years as well at the Majors level and below.

TussAgee11,
I can't imagine that happenin'. http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies...inted_anim.gif
Defining a curve ball would be difficult.

• flick of the wrist, the palm
• amount of break
• natural movement
• spinning pitches that don't break

Don't want that responsibility on an umpire. Put it on parents, coaches and leagues.
mick

I am not suggesting there should be NO limitations on pitchers; certainly, I understand that overthrowing can lead to injury. I am suggesting, however, that Little League's switch to a pitch count limit instead of inning count limit is a fix for something that is NOT broken.

I would like to see how LLB will perform this ?

LL can't properly manage the MPR rule as proved by many of the Regional games (and the complaints on these boards). What makes you all think that a Pitch Count rule will be managed correctly?

Well, dumb as LL has become over the fast few years...i could see that happening. They would claim "throwing fastballs puts tremoedous strains on the arm, therefor, for our player safety, we do not allow the fast ball to be thrown. so many rules LL has has taken the fun out of the game. :(

The breeze you feel is yet another one whizzing over your head.

Yabut....is it rising over his head too?:D

LL doesn't manage the MPR rule, it's up to the coaches to deal with it (or not). It's fine the way it's implemented, and only bonehead managers get caught with their shorts down. Unfortunetly there's plenty of those to go around.

As for the pitch count rule, I worked in one league that used it, and it worked out great. Umpires had nothing do with it, the scorekeeper dealt with it soley. I've seen plenty of kids hurt by throwing lots of pitches. It makes the managers really manage their pitching staff, and develop more players.

And Dave, as for documentation to prove that 100+ pitches is more injurious than 60, um, is common sense not good enough? 100>60. This is LL, and I've seen 70 pitch innings, and lots of clueless managers. It's to protect the kids against these morons.

As for the curveball, no one's going to outlaw it. Nor the slider or screwball. And for one, simple reason: You can't define it. That's a non-issue folks.

The American Journal of Sports Medicine 30:463-468 (2002)
© 2002 American Orthopaedic Society for Sports Medicine

Effect of Pitch Type, Pitch Count, and Pitching Mechanics on Risk of Elbow and Shoulder Pain in Youth Baseball Pitchers
Stephen Lyman, PhD*, Glenn S. Fleisig, PhD*,, James R. Andrews, MD* and E. David Osinski, MA
* American Sports Medicine Institute, Birmingham, Alabama
American Baseball Foundation, Birmingham, Alabama

Address correspondence and reprint requests to Glenn S. Fleisig, PhD, American Sports Medicine Institute, 1313 13th Street South, Birmingham, AL 35205


Background: Joint pain is thought to be an early sign of injury to a pitcher.

Objective: To evaluate the association between pitch counts, pitch types, and pitching mechanics and shoulder and elbow pain in young pitchers.

Study Design: Prospective cohort study.

Methods: Four hundred and seventy-six young (ages 9 to 14 years) baseball pitchers were followed for one season. Data were collected from pre- and postseason questionnaires, injury and performance interviews after each game, pitch count logs, and video analysis of pitching mechanics. Generalized estimating equations and logistic regression analysis were used.

Results: Half of the subjects experienced elbow or shoulder pain during the season. The curveball was associated with a 52% increased risk of shoulder pain and the slider was associated with an 86% increased risk of elbow pain. There was a significant association between the number of pitches thrown in a game and during the season and the rate of elbow pain and shoulder pain.

Conclusions: Pitchers in this age group should be cautioned about throwing breaking pitches (curveballs and sliders) because of the increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. Limitations on pitches thrown in a game and in a season can also reduce the risk of pain. Further evaluation of pain and pitching mechanics is necessary.






This article has been cited by other articles: (Search Google Scholar for Other Citing Articles)

[QUOTE=umpduck11

Conclusions: Pitchers in this age group should be cautioned about throwing breaking pitches (curveballs and sliders) because of the increased risk of elbow and shoulder pain. Limitations on pitches thrown in a game and in a season can also reduce the risk of pain. Further evaluation of pain and pitching mechanics is necessary.

[/QUOTE]

Hey, I agree with the conclusion. I just disagree with being able to implement some sort of ban. To prove my point: In 50 words, or less, try to put into words a 1) definition of a curveball, and 2) a way for an umpire to determine if this pitch is being thrown.

GFL

Who said anything about banning curve balls ? Dr. James Andrews, whom I'm
sure most here have heard of, has done extensive studies on youth pitchers,
as explained in my previous post. All he said, (that I saw), was that "Pitchers in this age group should be cautioned about throwing breaking pitches.." , and that there was a corrolation
between arm pain and the number of pitches thrown in a game and in a season.

You are right, it was the Padres. He was expected to do great things, but never did really amount to much. I never figured out why. Now I'm beginning to understand. 286 pitches is definitely sadistic, bordering on criminal.

Amen
 

DH has it right. This is going to be an administrative nightmare.

I work games with official scorers who can't decipher a pinch hitter, much less count pitches.

Ace

In the league I've seen pitch counts used in, the the manager or a bench coach has the pitch count clicker. I wouldn't dream of burdening the official scorer, who has enough responsibility to start with. This is up to the coaching staff to handle.

What about those leagues that are so poorly staffed they can't put independent scorekeepers on their games? You're going to dump this new chore on the mom who's already making a mockery of the scorebook?

Anecdotal statements like "I've seen plenty of kids hurt by throwing lots of pitches" are unhelpful. What is "hurt" - they had to take Tylenol the next day for a sore arm? What is "lots of pitches?" What if I say "I've seen lots of kids throw what you think are lots of pitches and they were fine." Is the argument a tie?

Well, 60>50, let's go to 50. 50>40, let's go to 40. Hey - let's require no more than 20 pitches in a game, and that way every kid can pitch in the game! That's the ticket!

Where are these 13 yearold invalids moping around in the "Convalescent Home for Little League Pitchers who Threw Too Many Pitches" you guys are so anxious to save? If you're going to base your argument on anecdotal "common sense" arguments, then I will counter it with the same - I've seen hundreds of kids go through Little League pitching within existing pitching limitations, and they went on to play higher levels, including high school, where the coaches were free to REALLY abuse their arms, and they all lived happily ever after. So there.

Little League isn't citing any injury statistics to support this rule change because there aren't any, plain and simple. It just sounds like a good rule to pass. It's cheap too - all you have to pay for to implement it are a few of those cheap little clickers.

Judging from last night's LLWS game, Little League needs an HBP limit rule worse than they need a pitch-count limit. You want a REAL safety rule to get behind? How about mandatory facemasks on batting helmets? We were a fraction of an inch away from catastrophe, live on national TV, in a LLWS game this weekend that would have been averted had the batter been wearing a helmet with a facemask.

But that one would cost some money to implement, wouldn't it?

Dave, some leagues actually do require facemasks on helmets, the one league i do requires them. One night, the league presidents son was hit square in the face with the ball (i was umpiring the bases) and it was a mess. Also I agree with you there. Im thinking of doing ASA or something...Rules get dumber every season

Keep in mind that 90% of all LL rule changes are safety related. No need for them to make sense to us - it does to LL risk mgt & the BOD.

Our local leagues have been using pitch count for three years (Waiver even before the test program). It's easy to do and no one has had any issues. If the local league prefers each team keep the count that's fine. I suggest it's reported to the scorekeeper at the end of each 1/2 inning tp prevent protests.

I believe that it is done this way in the league I umpired. The manager or coach would click off the pitches, and then relay that info to the scorekeeper each inning. That way, all he/she had to do was write down the number, not keep track of every pitch.

As a coach I always counted my pitchers' pitches. I can tell you for 8yo's, around 50 pitches you can see them start struggling. For 9&10yo's, between 60 and 70 pitches and for 11&12yo's, around 80 to 90. Of course, there's always exception to the rule. Now if LL really wanted to implement an effective pitch count, the count would graduate as the season progressed. Start off at 30 the first two weeks, 40 the next two weeks, etc. Where I see the sore arms are usually at the beginning of the season. By the end of the season, most 12yo's don't have too much problem going 80 pitches.

It's all about repetitions. For the kid that throws 80 pitches 3 days a week during the off season is fine. The kid that has to find his glove in the attic and throws 80 pitches the first game of the year is going to have problems.

But how do you legislate that? How do you protect the kids from the win-at-all-cost coaches?

So far as LL is concerned, the kids would be able to thrown the max number of pitches twice in an 7 or 8 day period due to mandatory rest. (Pitch Monday, four days rest get's you to Saturday, then the next Thursday, etc).

clueless coaches are clueless coaches. Parents that allow the kids to pitch in both travel and LL/PONY/BR without sufficient rest between ALL games are clueless.

We can't legislate away stupidity. if we could the world would be a much better place.

Again, LL is waaaay ahead of you guys.


There's no administrative burden. Pitch counts will be held down by the PUs, by widening the strike zone to the approximate size of a Winnebago, thus vastly increasing a) strikeouts caught-looking b) futile swings at pitches in the opposite batter's box. This memo has already gone out to Williamsport, if you hadn't noted.

Either way, arms and careers are saved! :D