OBR Ambidexterous pitcher
 

I know from the OBR that if an ambidexterous pitcher faces a switch-hitter, the pitcher must declare with which hand he will pitch to that batter. My question is, can the batter then switch from one side to the other - and back again - during his at bat?

Here's the sitch - R1. The batter entered the box as a righty, and the pitcher switched the glove so he could throw as a righty. The umpire had the pitcher declare, and he declared "righty". The batter then switched to bad left-handed, ultimately to give R1 a better chance to steal with the left-handed batter doing his best to block the view of the catcher. The runner DID steal, and then the batter wanted to switch back to bat right-handed, which, as it turned out, was his natural side to hit from.

Input?

JJ

JJ,

This is a "point not covered" in the OBR rules. The PBUC says each may change "handedness" one time during any given batter's at bat.

In your sitch, the batter used his "switch" when he changed to be a left-handed batter. According to the PBUC, he's stuck being a left-handed batter until he completes his at bat.

JM

This should be easier
 

I don't know, I thought that we had a good discussion about this a while ago. Didn't we all agree that the rule allows a batter to switch boxes at whim as long as he doesn't do it when the pitcher is on the rubber and ready to pitch? I have never encountered this but I sure wouldn't have a problem calling the guy out for trying to mess with the pitcher. That is umpire's judgement.

Yes, if the pitcher is not ambidextrous. If the pitcher is ambidextrous, then it depends on the rules code being used.

It's umpire judgment, but it's not a position that's supported by rule. Batters sometimes request time out to "mess with the pitcher". I wouldn't call the batter out for that.

Bob is responding to the previous poster's claim that a batter can switch batter's boxes more than once per at bat. Bob's answer is yes that's true, if the pitcher is not ambidextrous.

Without the context of the thread, I guess I can see where you might be confused by Bob's answer, but it's a discussion. It was an answer to a question, not a standalone statement. Context matters.

6.06 (b) The batter is out if he steps from one box to the other while the pitcher is ready to pitch.


Actually had this happen last Thursday.

The key phrase in your rule cite is "while the pitcher is ready to pitch." Until the pitcher assumes a legal pitching position, the batter is free to step into either batter's box and prepare to hit. Unless, that is, the pitcher happens to be ambidextrous, in which case different rules codes have different rulings for preventing an endless loop.

Oh I agree Dave.

Bear with me guys, I was a lawyer and am a teacher so words have a particular significance to me. You are killing Peter for Paul's crimes. It makes no difference if the pitcher is ambidextrous or not. Once he has assumed his place on the rubber, if the batter switches boxes, he is out. The pitcher has restrictions on his actions as does the batter. The pitcher has legally engaged the pitching rubber and is ready to pitch (it says nothing about having to be set) when the batter changes boxes; OUT! JJ was speaking of OBR, so that is what we should be speaking to. I only see a dozen HS games a year and don't have that book here, does HS allow this? College and Pros don't, so what rule code are you referring to? Bob agreed that umpire judgement is involved, but this is pretty cut and dry. If the pitcher isn't on the rubber, the guy can switch on every pitch if he wants to.

Well, no offense Pete but the rules were written by and for gentlemen, not lawyers. "In position ready to pitch" can reasonably be interpreted to mean when the pitcher has assumed a legal pitching position - windup or set. Think of it this way - at any point in which the umpire would logically grant the batter a request for time, then the batter can do that and switch to the other box. He can do this repeatedly, UNLESS the pitcher switches handedness (which only happens when the pitcher is ambidextrous.)

The purpose of rule 6.06(b) is to keep the batter from disconcerting the pitcher or causing him to balk. It's very rarely encountered, and any umpire who's looking to call an out on a batter who wants to switch handedness is very likely dabbling in over-officiousness.

Better Understanding of Limits
 

What rule allows the batter to switch boxes on a whim? If the batter switches boxes, then the pitcher if he so chooses may allow his defense to move to other positions. Time would be appropriate. If you grant the batter time to switch boxes repeatedly, then you are also granting the defense time to adjust their positioning.

Someone recognizes the importance of placing time limits on this endless loop. The pitcher must first declare. The switch hitter then makes a decision. He may switch during the course of an at-bat, but he may not switch after each and every pitch. If others allow the batter to switch after every pitch, then that will tell me what kind of game their having. Gentlemen, behave here.

Hope my partner never switches places after every pitch. NO. You can't do that. You stay where you are.

That is the sign of an OOO. Then you'll have the offensive coach telling you that you don't know the rules very well. I apologize if that offends, but your interp is wrong.

After looking through the OBR, I find no rule that PROHIBITS a batter from switching between every pitch, if he so chooses - only the rule that says the ambidexterous pitcher must declare and remain if a switch-hitter steps to the plate and wants to switch.
I accept the PBUC note as backup for a ruling. Thanks.

JJ

Closer, Did You Award a Strike Too?
 

Batter can't leave the box unless he asks for TIME and PU grants it.

d) The following experimental rule shall be in effect for all National Association Leagues in 2006:
(1) The batter shall keep at least one foot in the batter’s box throughout the batter’s time at bat, unless one of the following exceptions applies, in which case the batter may leave the batter’s box but not the dirt area surrounding home plate:
(i) The batter swings at a pitch;
(ii) The batter is forced out of the batter’s box by a pitch;
(iii) A member of either team requests and is granted “Time”;
(iv) A defensive player attempts a play on a runner at any base;
(v) The batter feints a bunt;
(vi) A wild pitch or passed ball occurs;
(vii) The pitcher leaves the dirt area of the pitching mound after receiving the ball; or
(viii) The catcher leaves the catcher’s box to give defensive signals.
Notwithstanding Rule 6.02(c), if the batter intentionally leaves the batter’s box and delays play, and none of the exceptions listed in Rule 6.02(d)(1)(i) through (viii) applies, the umpire shall award a strike without the pitcher having to deliver the pitch. The ball shall remain alive.

edited to add emphasis

Did you READ the rule you posted?!?
There are SEVEN EXCEPTIONS, and the penalty applies ONLY if B leaves the box AND DELAYS PLAY, in which case he is charged a strike.
I'm calling BS on that one.

VIII , not VII or IX
 

ONE: The rulebook states that there are eight exceptions that allow a batter to leave his batter's box during his time at bat. Box is singular. Batter is entitled to ONE, not both.

Two: The rule states he must continue to stay in the same box throughout the batter’s time at bat. Otherwise, I am wrong and rule should read either box, or allowed to switch from one to the other.

Three: Which rule allows him to leave after any pitch, a called strike or a ball? None. A batter then may not, by rule, switch places in the batters boxes after every single pitch. Sorry to disappoint you.

What is a National Association League?

I think you are confusing the issue in your shot at redemption. This isn't HS or college ball. Your acting like Colonel Klink with the whole "you need permission to do that" baloney. Watch a game tomorrow and see how many times a player asks for Time and the umpire grants it before he steps out of the box.

JJ, where did you find the ambidextrous pitcher ruling? I can believe that the guy can't switch hands to deliver, but short of having two gloves this seems pretty unrealistic.

Get back in the box
 

Name 1 MLB switch hitter in the the last 100 years who is known for switching boxes after every pitch.
Begin with Lance Berkman, Carlos Beltran, Chipper Jones. They have never done it. I know they are today's power switch-hitters.
Name 2 MLB players that led off the game in 1 box and then switched places after the first pitch in the last 10 years.
Ask yourself, why is it so hard to name any?

Because there's no practical or strategic reason for doing so, NOT because it is against the rules.

We've already answered this, SA. 6.06(b) prohibits the batter from switching places when the pitcher is ready to pitch. A reasonable assumption is that the batter can switch before the pitcher is ready to pitch.

FYI- A National Association League is any league that is a member of The National Association of Professional Baseball Leagues (ie Minor League Baseball Leagues except the Indy leagues).

Becaue they only do it when when the pitcher throws a rising fastball. :D

which helps your argument, HOW?
Where in the Rule does it say he must remain in the SAME box "throughout ..."? Ain't there that I can see. So, I'll pick "Otherwise, [you (SAump) are] wrong."

Default condition in Baseball: if it is not, by Rule, prohibited - it is permitted. There are darn few exceptions to this principle: can't think of one, off-hand. Absent a penalty [of which there is NONE here, unless a delay of game is created], no reasonable person can even argue for an implied prohibition.
I'm NOT disapointed: your lack of knowledge or insight into the Rules and customs of the game of baseball as shown in this thread is exactly as I have come to expect from you.

My Final Caveat, In black and white
 

(2) The batter may leave the batter’s box and the dirt area surrounding home plate when “Time” is called for the purpose of
(i) making a substitution; or
(ii) a conference by either team.

(2) (i) Batter may switch from one box to another during one at-bat. By rule, he must call time first and allow the defense fair notice. Defense may also acknowledge an unannounced substitution by allowing batter into other box and delivering a pitch. If defense complains about the switch, the UIC should determine whether to allow it or not. UIC, according to rules, customs and traditions; should not allow game delay or unsportmanship behavior to occur. Offense will be warned to "STAY in BOX" and a strike will be awarded after each occurence.

edited to add emphasis

WARNING TO NEWBIES:
SAump is halucinating, again; whether it's DT's or left-handed ciggies, we can't tell you, but the foregoing quoted drivel is applicable and correct only in pink-elephant Calvinball. Suggest you disregard.

Sorry CB, have to disagree here: plenty of things are neither explicitly prohibited nor permitted in the rules. R2 may not dig a moat around 2B, for example. Neither can R1, for that matter...

Examples like that seem dumb, of course, but the point is that the rules are NEITHER an exhaustive list of what is prohibited in baseball, NOR an exhaustive list of what is permitted. No sound argument deploys reasoning of the form "Since the rules don't explicitly forbid/permit that, it must be permitted/forbidden."

The rules are rough guidelines to how the game should be played, and they must be interpreted with wisdom, experience, and good sense. An umpire lacking any one of these will err.

And a sense of humor doesn't hurt, either.

Not to pick an argument when we don't, on anything that matters, disagree....

However: name me ONE actual game sitch [ie: no moats around the bases, please] where the accepted or correct ruling does not fit the condition I have proposed - IOW, where something is prohibited or penalised based on the absence of a rule PERMITTING it. I don't think you will find one.

Even the "example" you have given [unauthorised landscaping of the infield] fits if you then ask the question: so what's the penalty? Let's us just assume that R2 begins excavation of that moat we both agree he ain't gonna be permitted to construct....he's, what? Out for interference [oops, that's a rule (against offensive interference) that explicitly PROHIBITS the action in question]? Ejected for disregarding an umpire's directive per 9.01b (please note, NOT "c") - [oops - prohibitory Rule, again]? WHAT?! What's the penalty? Where does it [the penalty] come from?

I admit that my outlook on this is somewhat colored by a principle from my day job: a "crime" with no penalty is no crime at all.

In general, when someone goes at a baseball problem looking for "what rule permits 'em to do X...", or "reasons" that because they can't find a rule permitting something, that it is or ought to be prohibited/ penalised - they are on the wrong track, and they often err by inventing "Rules" and rulings which are unsupported by anything other than their own whim and fiat [no, not the car].

THAT part I agree with and endorse wholeheartedly.

NO. You can't do that.
 

Batter cannot repeatedly switch from one box to the other.
Add a STRIKE to the batter's count.
Batter must stay in the box.
If batter wants to leave the box, call TIME.
Otherwise, batter is not allowed to leave the BOX.
Any questions?

SAump has become a broken record.

Either that, or he's using an auto-responder in this thread.

By "actual game sitch" do you mean some action explicitly provided for in the rules? Petitio principii.

You're making my point: umpires have escape clauses like 9.01b (and c) in order to catch things that are NOT EXPLICITLY prohibited by rule. And as we all know, that opens those rules to abuse by the officious.

At least we agree about the important points.:cool:

Creighton University just this past season had a pitcher who wore a five fingered glove and would regularly switch left handed to right handed pitching depending on the batter. As has previously been stated in this thread, the pitcher does have to declare what side he will be pitching from AND has to remain that way for the entire at bat. The batter, on the other hand may switch boxes between pitches as long as he is not making a travisity of the game.

kraine27:
 

A "travesty" of the game can only occur, by rule, if a player runs the bases in reverse order.

A "better" term in your post would have been "cause undo delay."

Regards,

Noooo...
Nice try. You know that I mean something that actually happens in real games. Not "How many umpires can lobster-claw an out on the head of a bat.." -style TWP "examples".

Can you name one real-world baseball situation where there is a prohibition based on the absence of a rule permitting the action?

FWIW my teenage son thinks that "fortifying one's position" on the bases would be "cool".

Actually, 8-4-2n is the second time the words are used. The first time they are used is in Rule 8-2 APPEAL PROCEDURES AND GUIDELINES, #6 - More Than One Appeal. Multiple appeals are permitted as long as they do not become a travesty of the game.

Yeah, it really gets annoying with all those multiple appeals on every play...happens every time I turn around...what a travesty indeed.:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=kraine27]Creighton University just this past season had a pitcher who wore a five fingered glove and would regularly switch left handed to right handed pitching depending on the batter. QUOTE]

This is the pitcher I saw this summer in several games. He was the 2nd ambidexterous pitcher I've ever seen, and the first who was equally as fluid and effective from the left side as the right. His glove was custom made.

JJ