OBR. R3 tries to score on a base hit, but the throw to home beats him easily. The catcher tries to tag him but R3 jumps over his outstretched hands - and also jumps completely over home plate, missing it. The umpire makes no call. The runner has run several strides toward his (1st base) dugout, and hears teammates yelling, "You missed the plate!" He starts to return, and the catcher takes a step toward him to apply a tag. R3, realizing that if he is quickly tagged the other runners will not be able to advance further, so he stops and takes a step back.

The question is, do you call R3 out for taking this "retreating" step? He has not reached the dugout. He has not gone more that 3 feet out of a direct line from where he is to home plate. He has simply taken a step backward to prolong being tagged. If you call him out, what's the reason - abandoning his efforts to run the bases? You wouldn't call a runner in a rundown out for retreating. What's the call?

Under 7.08(k), since the runner is not immediately returning to touch home plate, the catcher may simply hold the ball and touch the plate for an appealed out. If the catcher doesn't do that, you have no basis otherwise to call the runner out. Play on.

Right, but that could be an interesting sitch. the runner, after missing home plate, takes about four steps to the dugout. The catcher follows him but can't tag him. Now the catcher heads back to the plate for an appeal with the culprit close behind and following him.

The EX-runner is showing an effort to return to the plate and is in close proximity to the plate (unrelaxed action). An appeal wouldn't be allowed, only a tag.

Hey, this cat and mouse game could go on all night. Hope it never happens to me. Interesting though. G.

It won't go on too long . . . Remember that following runner? He'd be called out under 7.08(h) . . . "He passes a preceding runner before such runner is out."

Now, if HE misses home plate too!!! Then it could go on all night.

If you're saying that when the trail runner scores he would be out for passing a runner that would incorrect. It only kills the first runner's ability to retag. Once the second runner scores then you just appeal the first because it is now relaxed play on him because he can't retouch.

What I really thought was interesting was that in the first four responses no one gave an anwer on what they'd do.

I'd call him out for leaving the basepath. His basepath is to home and home only. The purpose of the basepath rule is so a fielder doesn't have to chase a runner to apply a tag. The catcher went to apply the tag. The man reversed and went the opposite direction of where he had to be. The catcher shouldn't have to chase him any longer to do his job.
To me, that's leaving his basepath when a play is being made upon him. He's out.

Just my opinion,

Freix

Hey, there is no basepath and there is no runner. G,

Freix: There is a PBUC ruling that says a runner may return from the bench to touch a missed home plate. The LL rule says he can't return if he enters the dugout. In either case you can't call him out before he enters the dugout, and only in LL can you call him out when he does.

7.12 says a following runner isn't affected by a preceeeding runners failure to touch so you can't get him for passing.

So the answer is....? He's out if he's tagged - duh. He's out if the catcher touches the plate and appeals the missed base IF the runner is not trying to return. As to there "not being a basepath..", IMHO there IS a basepath - it's the direct line from where he is to where he's going (much like a batter heading for the dugout on a dropped third strike, only to realize it WAS a dropped third strike, so he takes off for first from wherever he is, thus creating his basepath - so a basepath doesn't have to be between two bases....or does it?). The fact that the runner retreated a step means he's no longer trying to return to the missed base (or does it?), so that gives the catcher the appeal option he wouldn't have if the runner WAS trying to return. I feel like a dog chasing my tail...
BUT - can the runner try to return to the missed base, retreat a step to avoid a tag (staying in that direct line betweeen where he is and where he's going), then try again to return to the missed base if the catcher stops trying to tag him (for instance, if the catcher looks at the other runners to check their positions) before the catcher steps on the plate with the appeal? Curiouser and curiouser...

BTW, I called the runner out because the catcher finally did tag him , not because he retreated to avoid that tag.
Isn't baseball a great game?

JJ, I thought I made that pretty clear when I said his basepath was to home and home only. Advancing to the dugout after a tag attempt is being made on him ain't gonna cut it in my book, especially after he started back to touch the plate.

He was in his basepath headed back to home. I don't allow a reverse in that basepath and I sure ain't gonna make F2 keep chasing him. I haven't looked it up for a ruling. If I am wrong, then I am wrong, but that's what I call in the situation. It abides with the intent of the basepath rule so as not to make a fielder making a tag attempt have to chase the runner.

He's out for being out of HIS basepath which is headed BACK to home plate.

Just my opinion,

Freix

I think we're all right . . . and we're all wrong. Missing the plate, trying to return after entering the dugout, the catcher should/shouldn't step on the plate, the runner starts to go back to home and then retreats toward the dugout again, runners all going berserk and missing bases all over the place, etc., etc., etc. For God's sake, call something! If all playing action has stopped (e.g. runners hold between bases, that runner from the dugout stops in his tracks and the catcher being confused on what the hell he should do . . . call "time", call that runner who missed the plate out for "leaving the basepath" or "abandoning his effort to return" or for "being overage"; it doesn't matter! Get on with the game! Calmly . . . once you've got all the irate coaches, parents and players running at you with baseball bats back to where they belong . . . allow all the protests you want. Go on with the game and let the "experts" on the protest committee handle it!

I couldn't go any farther than this... How can the runner at 3rd not get home on a BASE HIT?? Wooooo wooo, Look the MARTIAN MOTHER SHIP!

How would you rule in Fed?

Same way.

So are you saying if R3 misses home plate he is automatically out if the catcher with the ball touches home plate(an appeal play) even if a force doesn't exist? Where is Fed does it say that you can make a live ball appeal?

Greg

FED Appeal
 

Greg asks: <b>Where is Fed does it say that you can make a live ball appeal? </B>

Right here, Greg:

<i>8-2 Pen. (New) - Replace rule with:. . .For failure to touch a base (advancing or returning), or failure to tag up as soon as the ball is touched on a caught fly ball, the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team. The defense may appeal during a live ball immediately following the play and before a pitch, legal or illegal. A live ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early. A dead ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with or without the ball by verbally stating that the runner missed the base or left the base too soon. Appeals must be made (1) before the next legal or illegal pitch, (2) at the end of an inning, before the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory, or (3) on the last play of the game, an appeal can be made until the umpires leave the field of play. NOTE: When a play, by its very nature is imminent and is obvious to the offense, defense, and umpire(s), no verbal appeal is necessary (e.g. runner attempting to retouch a base that was missed, or a failure to tag up and a throw has been made to that base or plate while a play is in progress). </i>

Greg, understand that in current Fed rule the offense can always make a live ball appeal. However, they really don't need to because the official should declare the runner out at the end of playing action if he saw the appeal.

The only benefit in the offense actually making the live ball appeal could occur if they could make the appeal play and get a final out before a run scored on a timing play.

Of course, it has been posted the Fed rules regarding appeals are about to change for the 2002 Season. We will need to wait for the formal changes to be incorporated into their rules and call the plays by the latest rules revisions.

Just my opinion,

Freix

Freix writes:
<b>Of course, it has been posted the Fed rules regarding appeals are about to change for the 2002 Season. We will need to wait for the formal changes to be incorporated into their rules and call the plays by the latest rules revisions.

Just my opinion, </b>
_______

According to Indianaoplis, the changes have been incorporated into their rules. Now, then if what you meant is you feel you need to <b>see</b> it in the rulebook, that won't happen for a few months yet.

However, the rule has been adopted.

I really think you guys need to take some time off. First we are crediting a guy with jumping over the catchers hand, going back to the plate to touch because his teammates are telling him to and then this ingenious ballplayer is going to reason all this out and decide. """I must step back because of other runners on base"""". YEA SURE Too many games!!! Take some time off!!!!

Jicecone, there are several reasons we discuss plays that, at first glance, don't ever happen. When we determine rulings on crazy plays, we exercise our knowledge of definitions, rules, interpretations, spirit, and intent to come up with the correct ruling. Simply look at the different issues arose from this situation:<UL><LI>When is a runner considered "out of the baseline"?<LI>When can such a runner be called out?<LI>When can a viable appeal be made? What is the relevance of relaxed/unrelaxed action in appeals?<LI>When can a runner who missed a base make a valid touch?<LI>When must a runner be tagged on an appeal?<LI>When can two opinions on a ruling both be correct, via 9.01(c)?<LI>When can a run score?<LI>When is a runner considered to have passed another runner?</UL>
If you think these issues are not important for umpires to know, you must not be an umpire.

When an impractical scenario is presented, we always want to keep in mind the practical issues related to that scenario. That, my friend, is the beauty of these internet boards. Better umpiring is the result--not because we know how to rule when "R3 tries to score on a base hit, but the throw to home..." but because we know <b>why</b> we rule that way.

P-Sz

PAT, Your right and your wrong. Discussion is good.Ive umpired over 15 yrs. Reality, and an understanding of the intent of the rules and how to apply them is what teaches others to be decisive, not 250 cases of what if. That teaches confusion and from that stems undecisiveness, exactly what we dont want officials to be.

Lighten up, it's then end of the season. GOOd LucK

Jicecone:<p>'Undecisiveness' [sic], exactly what we dont [sic] want officials to be." That's a great bit of advice. But, unless you have considered IN ADVANCE those casebook situations that arise from time to time, I suggest it will be hard to be both decisive AND right.<p>Pat laid out a great list of issues that impinge on this thread. You dismiss them by telling him to lighten up. (You told someone else to take some time off.)<p>Amazing!<p>I am reminded of the golfer who consistently slices the ball. Finally, someone says: "You need some practice." He says: "I practice every day." Someone says: "No matter how many times you swing the club, if you're doing it wrong, you won't get any better." Umpiring is sort of like that. You've been umpiring 15 years, you say, and....

Carl Childress

[Edited by Carl Childress on Aug 7th, 2001 at 10:55 PM]

An apt metaphor. A few years ago, I went to a golf pro about my slice. He told me that he couldn't cure a slice. He then added that he could teach me to hook, and that he could cure a hook.

I'm still learning.

Thanks for the backup, Carl. In addition to Carl's points, Jicecone, I wasn't saying that these boards and "what if" discussion are the only way to better umpiring, only that they help a great deal. There's no substitute for experience, of course.

I think we agree on that much, anyway.

Then you said, "lighten up!" That's always good advice, eh?

P-Sz

Hay Irish kid,

You gonna get your sheep skin this year? #1 says 2003 before we have a doctor in the family. Damn I hope I live that long.

rex

Yes, I am, but more meaningful perhaps is the doeskin I bought last year! That WestVest mask is holding up well. Anyway, good luck.

P-Sz

Even before the new rule (to be effective next year) bthe FED, the defense can make a live-ball appeal. See the last two sentences of 8-2 Penalty.

OK Carl and Pat you WIN!

I blew the call and have to suck it up!

Mabey MY OWN, end of the season blahs should not have been taken out on anyone else. I apologize.

I do belive that sometimes these boards get over discussed however, this too can be positive.

Carl you are absolutely correct.

and.... I still get it wrong too. That is exactly why I have read and re-read every baseball book you have written. (and others) It is reference material that helps me understand how I might handle the situation a little better the next time. I guess discussion could be categorized in the same manner.

You are truly a man of your word.

Chapter Six "Major Crimes" No. 42. "51 ways to Ruin a Baseball Game"

Thankyou

Just so you know, jicecone, I started this thread because this play in fact did happen to me this summer. I was trying to pick a few other brains as to the ruling and it's justification. It's baseball - never say never!

Thanks, Jicecone, for the follow-up. I knew we weren't that far apart. Have a good one!

P-Sz