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-   -   New FED rule: appeals required, made easier (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/2733-new-fed-rule-appeals-required-made-easier.html)

Patrick Szalapski Tue Jul 31, 2001 12:15pm

Check out the change in rule 8-2, http://www.nfhs.org/sports/baseball_rules_change.asp .

My thoughts:<ul><li>In general, a good idea. Closer to OBR, and it frees umpires from making the call that no one expects.
<li>They are allowing dead ball appeals, which makes it simpler, but also will confuse the participants who are also in OBR games. We'll have players calling time to appeal in OBR games, and then we'll have to say, "No, coach, that's a high school rule. Here, you need a live ball to appeal."
<li>They are allowing coaches to make the dead ball appeal. Why? Too much trouble to get a dumb player to do it?
<li>Coaches can make a live ball appeal. Huh? How? "A live ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early" (FED web site) That doesn't make any sense.
<li> The rules for fourth out appeals are too vague; one might interpret that fifth outs are not allowed at all.
<li> Limit of one appeal on one runner at one base - why not make it a rule instead of leaving it to be covered under "travesty of the game"?
</ul>

bluezebra Tue Jul 31, 2001 01:34pm

"Coaches can make a live ball appeal. Huh? How? "A live ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early" (FED web site) That doesn't make any sense."

It makes sense if you put a comma in here: "by a coach, or any defensive player..."

This is why proper punctuation makes a great difference in how a sentence reads.

Bob

Patrick Szalapski Tue Jul 31, 2001 01:48pm

Quote:

Originally posted by bluezebra
"Coaches can make a live ball appeal. Huh? How? "A live ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early" (FED web site) That doesn't make any sense."

It makes sense if you put a comma in here: "by a coach, or any defensive player..."
Bob

I thought about that, but it still doesn't make any sense. How would a coach make a live ball appeal, with or without the ball? I can see it now. The instant a fly ball is caught, the coach says "Appeal!" and all runners are out if off their base.

No, of course not. So how....

P-Sz

bluezebra Tue Jul 31, 2001 07:22pm

P Sz:

Think about it. The appeal is made when the action stops. "Blue, the runner from second left early". "Blue, the runner from first missed second base".

Kapish?

Bob

GarthB Wed Aug 01, 2001 12:32am

He's right Pat. The coach, despite years of our trying to train him to keep his mouth shut and stay out of our jobs, is now being encouraged by FED to yell at us from the dugout to do our job.

This part of the rule change still has the umpire calling the out without a "real" appeal. Instead, FED has the coach yelling at us, then we ring em up.

Does anybody in the Indianapolis office even work a game anymore? If they wanted to change to an appeal process, they had a model written and ready to go...OBR. Intead, in their insistence to place the FED brand on the rule, they made the change worse instead of better.

If FED really is only concerned with safety and increased opportunity for kids to play, all they have to do is take OBR and add the safety and substitution rules. Nonsense like this and the ridiculous practice of penalizing the batter for a balk speaks volumes about FED's true intent.

I used to like FED rules. I liked the old missed bag rule. See it, call it. I like the way FED organizes their rulebook and casebook. But the way they have b*st*rdized this change has put me in the Fronheiser camp.

I'm just FED up.

GB



Gre144 Sat Aug 04, 2001 11:12pm

I think the rule simply states that after all playing action has ended the defense can make an appeal before the umpire actually makes the out call. This appeal would probabaly be made by the pitcher who has the ball off the mound.

GarthB Sun Aug 05, 2001 01:55am

Greg writes:

<b>I think the rule simply states that after all playing action has ended the defense can make an appeal before the umpire actually makes the out call. This appeal would probabaly be made by the pitcher who has the ball off the mound. </b>


Actually Greg, according to FED, umpires will not call the out unless an appeal has been made, and it can indeed by made by the coach from the dugout, much like a coach requesting "Check that" on a check swing call.

[Edited by GarthB on Aug 5th, 2001 at 01:57 AM]

Gre144 Mon Aug 06, 2001 10:58am

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GarthB
Greg writes:

<b>I think the rule simply states that after all playing action has ended the defense can make an appeal before the umpire actually makes the out call. This appeal would probabaly be made by the pitcher who has the ball off the mound. </b>


Actually Greg, according to FED, umpires will not call the out unless an appeal has been made, and it can indeed by made by the coach from the dugout, much like a coach requesting "Check that" on a check swing call.

[Edited by GarthB on Aug 5th, 2001 at 01:57 AM]
[/QUOTE

Can you quote me the Fed rule that says that umpires will not call an out unless an appeal is made? According to
8-2-5 and 8-4-i the out is called after the play is dead. There is no mention of an appeal. I have always been under the impression that appeals do not exist in Fed rules but if they do please quote me the rule.

Greg

GarthB Mon Aug 06, 2001 11:32am

You bet.
 
Greg asks: <b>Can you quote me the Fed rule that says that umpires will not call an out unless an appeal is made? </b>


Here it is Greg. Brand new and fresh from FED:

8-2 Pen. (New) - Replace rule with:. . .For failure to touch a base (advancing or returning), or failure to tag up as soon as the ball is touched on a caught fly ball, the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team. The defense may appeal during a live ball immediately following the play and before a pitch, legal or illegal. A live ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early. A dead ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with or without the ball by verbally stating that the runner missed the base or left the base too soon. Appeals must be made (1) before the next legal or illegal pitch, (2) at the end of an inning, before the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory, or (3) on the last play of the game, an appeal can be made until the umpires leave the field of play. NOTE: When a play, by its very nature is imminent and is obvious to the offense, defense, and umpire(s), no verbal appeal is necessary (e.g. runner attempting to retouch a base that was missed, or a failure to tag up and a throw has been made to that base or plate while a play is in progress).


Gre144 Mon Aug 06, 2001 12:54pm

Re: You bet.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by GarthB
Greg asks: <b>Can you quote me the Fed rule that says that umpires will not call an out unless an appeal is made? </b>


Here it is Greg. Brand new and fresh from FED:

8-2 Pen. (New) - Replace rule with:. . .For failure to touch a base (advancing or returning), or failure to tag up as soon as the ball is touched on a caught fly ball, the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team. The defense may appeal during a live ball immediately following the play and before a pitch, legal or illegal. A live ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early. A dead ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with or without the ball by verbally stating that the runner missed the base or left the base too soon. Appeals must be made (1) before the next legal or illegal pitch, (2) at the end of an inning, before the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory, or (3) on the last play of the game, an appeal can be made until the umpires leave the field of play. NOTE: When a play, by its very nature is imminent and is obvious to the offense, defense, and umpire(s), no verbal appeal is necessary (e.g. runner attempting to retouch a base that was missed, or a failure to tag up and a throw has been made to that base or plate while a play is in progress).


I have 8-2 pen in front of me for the rule book of this year and last year. I don't see anything new here and I do not see half the things you have mentioned in the rule.

GarthB Mon Aug 06, 2001 01:00pm

Greg:

Did you see the word "new" at the beginning? This rule was recently adopted by FED to replace the old "appeal" rule. It is too new to appear in published form. That should ocurr around December/January.

Never-the-less, it IS the new FED rule. You should check out their website for this and other rule changes.

GB

Patrick Szalapski Mon Aug 06, 2001 02:41pm

My original point is that FED really screwed up the wording in this one. They forgot to indicate <b>when</b> and <b>how</b> the coach can make a live-ball appeal. Are we just supposed to assume "when playing action is stopped" and "just give a holler"? Come on, give us a break.

This rule change reminds me of energy deregulation in California: this change sounds like a good idea, is based on sound principle, and may start us on the way to a better system sometime in the future, but the implementation right now is all messed up. I've got to go with Garth and Rich here again; the FEDs are getting a little too rambunctious.

P-Sz

[Edited by Patrick Szalapski on Aug 8th, 2001 at 02:37 PM]

Gre144 Mon Aug 06, 2001 03:00pm

Quote:

Originally posted by GarthB
Greg:

Did you see the word "new" at the beginning? This rule was recently adopted by FED to replace the old "appeal" rule. It is too new to appear in published form. That should ocurr around December/January.

Never-the-less, it IS the new FED rule. You should check out their website for this and other rule changes.

GB

NO but I did see the words brand new.

Robert Brown Mon Aug 20, 2001 12:56pm

FED should have never screwed around with the appeal rule or the balk penalty. This is not baseball. It's just bureacracy in action. Pointless and Unnecessary.

The recent change, rule 8-2, is another example.

whiskers_ump Mon Aug 20, 2001 05:19pm

Reference Appeal Procedures
 
I know a lot of you dont want to hear this,
but <b> softball </b>, the other brand of ball,
underwent this change last year. Our <i> new
rule </i> was also worded incorrectly in the
rule book, however all chapters were notified
and everyone was on the same page. I was in
over 70 NFHS games and did not have one
problem <i> with this rule </i>. It will work
out guys. Just keep checking http://www.nfhs.org for
corrections and changes even after you receive
you books. Good calling.

mick, have not heard from you on this one.

glen


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