Check out the change in rule 8-2, http://www.nfhs.org/sports/baseball_rules_change.asp .

My thoughts:<ul><li>In general, a good idea. Closer to OBR, and it frees umpires from making the call that no one expects.
<li>They are allowing dead ball appeals, which makes it simpler, but also will confuse the participants who are also in OBR games. We'll have players calling time to appeal in OBR games, and then we'll have to say, "No, coach, that's a high school rule. Here, you need a live ball to appeal."
<li>They are allowing coaches to make the dead ball appeal. Why? Too much trouble to get a dumb player to do it?
<li>Coaches can make a live ball appeal. Huh? How? "A live ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early" (FED web site) That doesn't make any sense.
<li> The rules for fourth out appeals are too vague; one might interpret that fifth outs are not allowed at all.
<li> Limit of one appeal on one runner at one base - why not make it a rule instead of leaving it to be covered under "travesty of the game"?
</ul>

"Coaches can make a live ball appeal. Huh? How? "A live ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early" (FED web site) That doesn't make any sense."

It makes sense if you put a comma in here: "by a coach, or any defensive player..."

This is why proper punctuation makes a great difference in how a sentence reads.

Bob

I thought about that, but it still doesn't make any sense. How would a coach make a live ball appeal, with or without the ball? I can see it now. The instant a fly ball is caught, the coach says "Appeal!" and all runners are out if off their base.

No, of course not. So how....

P-Sz

P Sz:

Think about it. The appeal is made when the action stops. "Blue, the runner from second left early". "Blue, the runner from first missed second base".

Kapish?

Bob

He's right Pat. The coach, despite years of our trying to train him to keep his mouth shut and stay out of our jobs, is now being encouraged by FED to yell at us from the dugout to do our job.

This part of the rule change still has the umpire calling the out without a "real" appeal. Instead, FED has the coach yelling at us, then we ring em up.

Does anybody in the Indianapolis office even work a game anymore? If they wanted to change to an appeal process, they had a model written and ready to go...OBR. Intead, in their insistence to place the FED brand on the rule, they made the change worse instead of better.

If FED really is only concerned with safety and increased opportunity for kids to play, all they have to do is take OBR and add the safety and substitution rules. Nonsense like this and the ridiculous practice of penalizing the batter for a balk speaks volumes about FED's true intent.

I used to like FED rules. I liked the old missed bag rule. See it, call it. I like the way FED organizes their rulebook and casebook. But the way they have b*st*rdized this change has put me in the Fronheiser camp.

I'm just FED up.

GB

I think the rule simply states that after all playing action has ended the defense can make an appeal before the umpire actually makes the out call. This appeal would probabaly be made by the pitcher who has the ball off the mound.

Greg writes:

<b>I think the rule simply states that after all playing action has ended the defense can make an appeal before the umpire actually makes the out call. This appeal would probabaly be made by the pitcher who has the ball off the mound. </b>


Actually Greg, according to FED, umpires will not call the out unless an appeal has been made, and it can indeed by made by the coach from the dugout, much like a coach requesting "Check that" on a check swing call.

[Edited by GarthB on Aug 5th, 2001 at 01:57 AM]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GarthB
Greg writes:

<b>I think the rule simply states that after all playing action has ended the defense can make an appeal before the umpire actually makes the out call. This appeal would probabaly be made by the pitcher who has the ball off the mound. </b>


Actually Greg, according to FED, umpires will not call the out unless an appeal has been made, and it can indeed by made by the coach from the dugout, much like a coach requesting "Check that" on a check swing call.

[Edited by GarthB on Aug 5th, 2001 at 01:57 AM] [/QUOTE

Can you quote me the Fed rule that says that umpires will not call an out unless an appeal is made? According to
8-2-5 and 8-4-i the out is called after the play is dead. There is no mention of an appeal. I have always been under the impression that appeals do not exist in Fed rules but if they do please quote me the rule.

Greg

You bet.
 

Greg asks: <b>Can you quote me the Fed rule that says that umpires will not call an out unless an appeal is made? </b>


Here it is Greg. Brand new and fresh from FED:

8-2 Pen. (New) - Replace rule with:. . .For failure to touch a base (advancing or returning), or failure to tag up as soon as the ball is touched on a caught fly ball, the runner may be called out if an appeal is made by the defensive team. The defense may appeal during a live ball immediately following the play and before a pitch, legal or illegal. A live ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with the ball in his possession by tagging the runner or touching the base that was missed or left too early. A dead ball appeal may be made by a coach or any defensive player with or without the ball by verbally stating that the runner missed the base or left the base too soon. Appeals must be made (1) before the next legal or illegal pitch, (2) at the end of an inning, before the pitcher and all infielders have left fair territory, or (3) on the last play of the game, an appeal can be made until the umpires leave the field of play. NOTE: When a play, by its very nature is imminent and is obvious to the offense, defense, and umpire(s), no verbal appeal is necessary (e.g. runner attempting to retouch a base that was missed, or a failure to tag up and a throw has been made to that base or plate while a play is in progress).

Re: You bet.
 

I have 8-2 pen in front of me for the rule book of this year and last year. I don't see anything new here and I do not see half the things you have mentioned in the rule.

Greg:

Did you see the word "new" at the beginning? This rule was recently adopted by FED to replace the old "appeal" rule. It is too new to appear in published form. That should ocurr around December/January.

Never-the-less, it IS the new FED rule. You should check out their website for this and other rule changes.

GB

My original point is that FED really screwed up the wording in this one. They forgot to indicate <b>when</b> and <b>how</b> the coach can make a live-ball appeal. Are we just supposed to assume "when playing action is stopped" and "just give a holler"? Come on, give us a break.

This rule change reminds me of energy deregulation in California: this change sounds like a good idea, is based on sound principle, and may start us on the way to a better system sometime in the future, but the implementation right now is all messed up. I've got to go with Garth and Rich here again; the FEDs are getting a little too rambunctious.

P-Sz

[Edited by Patrick Szalapski on Aug 8th, 2001 at 02:37 PM]

NO but I did see the words brand new.

FED should have never screwed around with the appeal rule or the balk penalty. This is not baseball. It's just bureacracy in action. Pointless and Unnecessary.

The recent change, rule 8-2, is another example.

Reference Appeal Procedures
 

I know a lot of you dont want to hear this,
but <b> softball </b>, the other brand of ball,
underwent this change last year. Our <i> new
rule </i> was also worded incorrectly in the
rule book, however all chapters were notified
and everyone was on the same page. I was in
over 70 NFHS games and did not have one
problem <i> with this rule </i>. It will work
out guys. Just keep checking http://www.nfhs.org for
corrections and changes even after you receive
you books. Good calling.

mick, have not heard from you on this one.

glen

Fed, Shmed. Why don't they just stick to safety, which, from what I understand, was their initial purpose. We do not do Fed for HS. Thaaaank gawd. We do follow the slide rules and even they are screwed up. Those people are totally out of touch.

This change really shows that. The OBR appeal rule is simple, reasonable, understandable and it works, Why not just adopt it. Politics. G.

When?
 

Is this rule in effect right now for Fall baseball? If not, when will it go into effect?

Coach, the change is listed as a "2002 rule change". I believe it takes effect January 1, 2002

GB

Thanks
 

Thanks Garth

Since all the teams will have to do to appeal in Fed under the new rule is ask (and not deliver the ball to the base being appealed), how long do you suppose it will be before teams are appealing EVERY tagup and base touch every time the ball is hit? I see it as a potential problem, and hope the FED folks consider modifying things before the 2002 season rolls around.

With regardss to my previous post, I received an email in reply to one I sent to the NFHS regarding my concerns with the new appeal rule. Elliot Hopkins at the NFHS says they do not think it will be a problem and therefore does not need to be amended prior to the start of the 2002 season.

Any thoughts?

RE: NFHS seeing no Problem
 

If NFHS sees no problem then surely the people,
<u><i><b>[DA BLUE</u></i></b>],having to enforce
it will not have any problem. [grin].

glen

My understanding is they put a similar rule in softball last year and had no real problems. When they putit in all the softball guys said it was inline with ASA. So since softball was used to a similar rule there weren't problems. However baseball doesn't have such a thing at any level. They have real appeals but not the type instituted by the FED. I'm not saying it's going to be a big deal but I don't think it will go as smooth as softball did. We'll just have to wait and see.

I still don't understand how a live ball appeal can be made (by a player or the coach) without a tag of a base and a runner. Could someone explain to me the procedure?

P-Sz

Coach: "Hey, Blue -- that runner missed second."
Umpire: "You're right. He's out."

Iguess what they are trying to do is make the defense have to be aware of the miss but not have all the mistakes of trying to appeal. In low level ball it's a toss up on who screws it up more the players or the umps. This way it's stupid proof.

Patrick,
Where did you find that a live ball appeal can be
made without a tag?? According to the 8-2Pen. <b>new</b>

<i>A live ball appeal may be may by a coach, or
any defensive player with the ball in his possession
by <b>tagging</b> runner or <b>touching</b> the base, that was
missed or left too early.</i>

<i>A dead ball appeal may be made by coach, or
any defensive play with or without the ball by
verbally stating the the runner missed base or
left too soon</i>

The fact is, this rule is going to take place,
as JJ found out from NFHS when he querried them.
Might as well review and prepare. It was really
not a big deal in softball. Just have to remember
when you see missed base or left too soon on fly,
dont call until <u>appealed</u>, [wanted] dead or
alive. [grin]

glen

"Stupid proof..."

I LIKE that! Might just have to find a place to use it! Thanks, M. T.

Glen, I still don't understand the procedure for a coach making a live ball appeal. How does this take place?

P-Sz

[Edited by Patrick Szalapski on Sep 3rd, 2001 at 07:09 PM]

I assume that the coach would ask the ump for an appeal and the ump calls it. In live ball the player would have to actually tag the player or base. Another just came to me. In the past you could have an inadvertent appeal. In other words if you happen to step on the right base with the ball you got the appeal even if you didn't know you were doing it. I have never called this but I believe it was in the casebook.

RE: Ghost Appeal
 

I do believe that, that would be the correct procedure.
Coach asks, player actually does does tag of base/player
whichever applies.

Michael, didn't you hear that baseperson <i>asked</i> for
the appeal when they stepped on the base. ...Sure
they asked!!!![grin]

glen

Re: FEDlandia redux
 

<i> Originally posted by Jim Mills </i>


<b> Once again, the FED dispenses with the need for players to actually think and perform. In their recent survey of why officials don't re-register for FED ball, was "stupidity of rule book" an option? It's a major reason last season was my final season of HS baseball. </b>

Jim no rule book is <i> sqeaky clean </i> As J/R points out there are some 75-100 inconsistencies in the OBR rule-book and there's a fat chance in you no where that the OBR will be re-written - It's not a big priority as far as the players or owners are concerned.

Personally, I preferred the old FED rule regarding appeals. I agree their new rule <i> stinks </i> I also do not like FED's pitching rules.

Absent the aforementioned I prefer FED rules as least for amateur baseball. Let's take a look at the slide / avoid rule that most amateur leagues adopt using OBR. Basically, you can maliciously contact a player, and only have to fear being ejected.

In FED Malicious Contact is an out and an ejection whether the player has the ball or not. Also, I think the FED has done a nice job in their case book analysis.

Nothing is perfect, but IMO the rules of choice at least for amateur baseball is FED.

Pete Booth

Did Patrick ever figure out that in a live ball appeal the base or the runner has to be tagged? The coach can tell his players to do just that - that's how the coach can "do a live ball appeal".

Only with a dead ball appeal (after all play has ended and "time" has been called, or the ball has gone out of play) can a coach - or any defensive player - just ask the umpire directly, "Did he miss that base (those bases, leave too soon, etc...)?".

GBA

I seem to remember you're a rules interpreter in Illinois. Well, I'm proud to announce Officiating.com has concluded an exclusive arrangement with Kyle McNeely, the advisor to the National Federation rules committee. I'm sure you know Kyle.

We'll publish his maiden article next Monday. His first assignment: Bring everyone up-to-date on the new FED appeal rule. His series on that topic will be the next best thing to the FED rules meeting in January. Our members will get a big leg up on the coming season.

A word of caution: I have the first article. The second piece may not appear for several weeks. Mr. McNeely is traveling abroad for his company. The last time he was in Country X, his laptop was confiscated. Consequently, he is traveling the old-fashioned way, with pen and paper.

The articles will continue unabated as soon as Kyle returns. It's always nice to have someone around, like me, who knows the rules. (grin) It's even nicer to have someone, like Kyle, who helped write them.