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-   -   Ball 4, You're Out? (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/27141-ball-4-youre-out.html)

LMan Wed Jun 21, 2006 04:06pm
Pete:

Babe Ruth plays modified OBR.



Just thought I'd throw that in there :D

SanDiegoSteve Wed Jun 21, 2006 06:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by PWL
The reason it was put that way was because you cannot appeal abandonment/desertion. The batter didn't put the ball in play and wasn't required to run to first to touch the base. The batter was not HBP or got a BB with bases loaded to force in the run. So basically what you have here is that the advance of the runner had nothing to do with the batters actions. He had a simple base award. If you go over and simply step on first, batter is still without liability of being put out. Simply put you have to treat this just like a missed base. Then you will get the third out and no run will score. Do this and you should have no problem. I'm not citing the missed base ruling, but this is the proper way to appeal.
I totally see your point here. The batter cannot be called out for abandonment, as he has not yet reached 1st base. He can't be called out for desertion, as he has not entered the dugout or bench (or other DBT).

My questions are:

1) At what point could you declare the BR out on an appeal, since he still can complete his advance to 1st base, by rule?

and a very similar question:

2) 4.09(b) only applies when bases are loaded and 7.08(a)(2) does not apply either. How do you determine when the BR has waited too long to go to 1st?

I think I'll wait till he's at Dairy Queen and call him out then.:)

Rich Ives Wed Jun 21, 2006 06:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachJM
BayStateRef,



So, Rich, what DID you tell the manager to do?

BayStateRef,



JM
First, for all you debaters, the rule says if the runner <b>refuses</b> to go to first he is out.


The runner went charging into the dugout to hug his coach, thus "refusing" to go to first AND no longer able to do so.

SanDiegoSteve Wed Jun 21, 2006 06:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives
First, for all you debaters, the rule says if the runner <b>refuses</b> to go to first he is out.


The runner went charging into the dugout to hug his coach, thus "refusing" to go to first AND no longer able to do so.
That must be what happened in your game Rich, but not in the sitch we are debating. The runner never left live ball territory.

LilLeaguer Wed Jun 21, 2006 06:27pm
Funny
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Ives
We had it happen in a LL Tournament game ( I was only spectating). I let our manager know what to do and we cancelled the winning run. Lost in the next inning anyhow. It was fun though.
The manager had a discussion with a spectator during the game? In a tournament?

BktBallRef Wed Jun 21, 2006 07:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigUmp56
I'll buy that. Now comes the big question. How long do you stand there and wait before you call the BR out? You'd have to stand there until the celebration stops and possibly all the way through the hand shake line up as he hasn't deserted until he enters the dugout. Man, what a $hit storm that's going to create.


Tim.
Why not just walk over to the kid and tell him to get his *** down to first base?

DG Wed Jun 21, 2006 08:00pm
I have never seen this happen and now that I have seen all this discussion on it if I ever do I am on the way to the gate as soon as the runner touches home, dropping any baseballs I still have toward the home dugout. Since the batter-runner can go to 1B at any time as long as he has not entered the dugout I am not going to stick around long enough for a defensive coach to think this up. Once I am gone the defensive coach can't raise the question so he better be quick. And if I'm standing around like I am waiting for some event to happen he may figure out there is a reason.

BigUmp56 Wed Jun 21, 2006 08:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
Why not just walk over to the kid and tell him to get his *** down to first base?
I guess that might make sense in helping to avoid the storm that's coming, but I really don't think it's our job to coach a runner to fullfill his obligation to touch first on an award.


Tim.

UMP25 Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DG
I have never seen this happen and now that I have seen all this discussion on it if I ever do I am on the way to the gate as soon as the runner touches home, dropping any baseballs I still have toward the home dugout. Since the batter-runner can go to 1B at any time as long as he has not entered the dugout I am not going to stick around long enough for a defensive coach to think this up. Once I am gone the defensive coach can't raise the question so he better be quick. And if I'm standing around like I am waiting for some event to happen he may figure out there is a reason.
If you leave the field before the game is officially over, you are opening up a huge can of worms. Would you leave the field on a walk-off, 2-out homer when the batter-runner clearly missed first base? Of course not, because you know there may be an appeal. Can you imagine the defense trying to properly appeal but the umpires decided to head for the hills to avoid it?

If the B-R decides not to go to first--at all--you've got no choice but to declare him out and nullify the run.

DG Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by UMP25
If you leave the field before the game is officially over, you are opening up a huge can of worms. Would you leave the field on a walk-off, 2-out homer when the batter-runner clearly missed first base? Of course not, because you know there may be an appeal. Can you imagine the defense trying to properly appeal but the umpires decided to head for the hills to avoid it?

If the B-R decides not to go to first--at all--you've got no choice but to declare him out and nullify the run.
If batter hits a walk off he is very likely to touch every base easily. Don't make up a miss of 1B to discuss a point.

UMP25 Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:44pm
I beg to differ. My scenario is far likelier than a batter deciding not to go to first base as discussed in this thread. You cannot leave the game before it's completed, and running for the hills to avoid doing one's job is just that.

bob jenkins Thu Jun 22, 2006 08:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigUmp56
I guess that might make sense in helping to avoid the storm that's coming, but I really don't think it's our job to coach a runner to fullfill his obligation to touch first on an award.


Tim.
The one time a simialr situation happened to me, the batter looked at me quizically (while he was still in the box, just after receiving ball 4). I told him something like, "You need to touch first before the game is over".

I didn't tell him to run. I didn't coach him to first. I just stated a fact -- and the fact was avaialble to both teams (F2 now knew that if BR didn't go to first "something was wrong.")

I'd try to apply the same game management again.

BigUmp56 Thu Jun 22, 2006 08:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
The one time a simialr situation happened to me, the batter looked at me quizically (while he was still in the box, just after receiving ball 4). I told him something like, "You need to touch first before the game is over".

I didn't tell him to run. I didn't coach him to first. I just stated a fact -- and the fact was avaialble to both teams (F2 now knew that if BR didn't go to first "something was wrong.")

I'd try to apply the same game management again.
That makes more sense to me than seeking the batter out to tell him to go touch first.


Tim.

PeteBooth Thu Jun 22, 2006 09:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BktBallRef
Why not just walk over to the kid and tell him to get his *** down to first base?


You NAILED it.

While this thread deals with discussion and application of the rules, it has nothing to do with Reality. I doubt whether any umpire would want to prolong a game that for all practical purposes is over.

As for me once the kid walked I would do one of 2 things.

1. As you eluded to: Tell the kid before he starts celebrating with his teammates "Hey 23 make CERTAIN you touch first base" or

2. As I mentioned before, once teammates start to exit the dugout, put a stop to it right away and say "Gentlement the game is not over"

Sometimes these types of discussions do not conform to reality.

When the GAME is OVER it's OVER.

Pete Booth

UMP25 Thu Jun 22, 2006 01:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
The one time a simialr situation happened to me, the batter looked at me quizically (while he was still in the box, just after receiving ball 4). I told him something like, "You need to touch first before the game is over".

I didn't tell him to run. I didn't coach him to first. I just stated a fact -- and the fact was avaialble to both teams (F2 now knew that if BR didn't go to first "something was wrong.")

I'd try to apply the same game management again.
This reminds me of a situation when a batter rapped a hit on a balk call then stared at me and said, "But I hit the ball. What am I supposed to do now?" I replied, "Run!"

He got to first and R1 made it to third. End of story. :)


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