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Ball 4, You're Out?
Babe Ruth game (14-year-olds)
Tie score. Bottom 7th. Two out. Runner on third. 3-0 count. Next pitch bounces in dirt (Ball 4) and gets away from catcher. R3 scores. Batter/runner heads for first as teammates come out from first base dugout to celebrate win. Batter/runner never reaches first base, instead joining his teammates who are on the grass between home and first. Players line up to "congratulate" other team. What is the proper ruling? (And please cite the rule to support this.) If batter/runner is out, at what point does the umpire call it? Must the defense tag the runner? If not, at what point does the umpire rule the batter/runner out? |
J/R calls this 'desertion.' See related rules comments:
6.09 The batter becomes a runner when -- (a) He hits a fair ball; (b) The third strike called by the umpire is not caught, providing (1) first base is unoccupied, or (2) first base is occupied with two out; Rule 6.09(b) Comment: A batter who does not realize his situation on a third strike not caught, and who is not in the process of running to first base, shall be declared out once he leaves the dirt circle surrounding home plate. This specifically references a D3K, but applies (as I understand it) to any situation where the batter becomes a runner. |
Because the batter never reached first base and was the final out of the inning, no run may score on a play involving this batter. Therefore, R3's run is nullified. The umpire can declare the batter-runner out when he believes, in layman's terms here, that the B-R no longer made any effort to continue to first base. Some may call this abandonment, but the J/R manual refers to it as desertion. I suppose that's splitting hairs, but to make it easier to understand: did the B-R give up his advance to first and not reach it? If yes, he's out--final out, no runs score.
As far as which rule covers this run being nullified, refer to 4.09(b) for more information. |
Also consider the casebook comments in OBR under 7.08(a)-
7.08 Any runner is out when -- (a) (1) He runs more than three feet away from a direct line between bases to avoid being tagged unless his action is to avoid interference with a fielder fielding a batted ball; or (2) after touching first base, he leaves the baseline, obviously abandoning his effort to touch the next base; Rule 7.08(a) Comment: Any runner after reaching first base who leaves the baseline heading for his dugout or his position believing that there is no further play, may be declared out if the umpire judges the act of the runner to be considered abandoning his efforts to run the bases. Even though an out is called, the ball remains in play in regard to any other runner. This rule also covers the following and similar plays: Less than two out, score tied last of ninth inning, runner on first, batter hits a ball out of park for winning run, the runner on first passes second and thinking the home run automatically wins the game, cuts across diamond toward his bench as batter-runner circles bases. In this case, the base runner would be called out “for abandoning his effort to touch the next base” and batter-runner permitted to continue around bases to make his home run valid. If there are two out, home run would not count (see Rule 7.12). This is not an appeal play. PLAY. Runner believing he is called out on a tag at first or third base starts for the dugout and progresses a reasonable distance still indicating by his actions that he is out, shall be declared out for abandoning the bases. |
sounds like BayState's boy forgot to run to 1B ;)
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I am a (very) occassional fill-in umpire, so I am not fully versed in all the lingo. I don't know what J/R is. My Little League Rule Book is the 2004 version, so there may be updates. But I find the following:
6.09 (b) A batter forfeits his opportunity to advance to first base when he enters the dugout or other dead ball area. I knew this rule. But the batter never entered a dead ball area. Does that matter? If it is not specifically covered in LL rules, then do the MLB rules apply? I see these rules are much more specific and seem to properly cover this situation: 4.09 (a) EXCEPTION: A run is not scored if the runner advances to home base during a play in which the third out is made ... (3) by a preceding runner who is declared out because he failed to touch one of the bases. Rule 4.09(b) PENALTY: If, with two out, the batter-runner refuses to advance to and touch first base, the umpire shall disallow the run, call out the offending player, and order the game resumed. Rule 4.09(b) specifically refers to a two-out, bases-loaded situation. I am troubled by this play, since if this happened on the 2-0 pitch and the run scored on the wild pitch, there would be no doubt that the run counts and the game is over. |
First of all Babe Ruth, Little League and Official Baseball Rules published by The Sporting News are all different codes. There are only slight differences, but differences none the less.
Secondly, the batter/runner in this sitch (if I'm understanding your original post) never accepted his award of first base. In other words, he chose not to run the bases, thus abandoned his effort to run the bases. He shall be declared out. No run scores. Game continues. Find the OBR at http://mlb.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/mlb/of...info/index.jsp On the left side of the page. |
I'm going to play Devils advocate here. Every interpretation I've looked at suggests the run would be nullified if R3 was forced to advance and the BR failed to touch first. You can't call the BR out for desertion until he reaches his dugout steps, as BR has yet to adopt the 2006 dirt circle restriction. I see this as an advance by R3 on a passed ball/wild pitch, which in my mind would end the game the moment he touches the plate.
J/R By rule, a Batter-Runner cannot be out for abandoning before touching (or passing) first base. However, a Batter-Runner who aborts an advance toward first base before touching (or passing) such base and reaches his bench, dugout, dugout steps, or defensive position is out because of his desertion. Desertion typically occurs when a third strike is not caught and the defense neglects tagging the B/R or first base. Although improbable, desertion can also occur an award (e.g., after ball four after the B/R goes directly to his dugout in favor of a pinch-runner) or a batted ball. MLBUM Official Baseball Rule 4.09(b) provides that when the winning run is scored in the last half inning of a regulation game (or in the last half of an extra inning) as the result of a base on balls, hit batter or any other play with the bases full that forces the runner on third to advance, the umpire shall not declare the game ended until the runner forced to advance from third has touched home base and the batter-runner has touched first base. JEA Customs and Usage: Umpires should be alert on game-ending situations in which the batter walks and forces the winning run. With 2 outs, he shall be called out for his failure to comply with 6.08(a) and the wining run nullified...4.09(b). With less than 2 outs he shall be called out but the run would be scored. Umpires should make a practice of not granting time for a substitution after a batter has drawn 4 balls. Instruct the batter to advance to and touch first base before calling "time." However, if time is inadvertently granted by the umpire, a legal substitution may be made in accordance with 3.03 ("...any time the ball is dead") Situations: Runners on second and third. Two outs...3-2 count on the batter. The runner on third is attempting to steal home on the next pitch. The next pitch is high and inside and the catcher is able to tag out the runner before he reaches the plate. Is the side retired or does the walk nullify the play? RULING: The batter walked and completed his time at bat...and since the runner was not forced in by the walk...the play on him stands. He is the third out. Tim. |
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Why are you troubled? It's quite cut-and-dry. |
LMan:
I think the distinction is that this is a game ending play where R3 advanced as a result of the passed ball. Tim. |
Tim:
J/R does not agree with you. page 86: V. A runner who touches home with the apparent winning run does not terminate the game. 1. A subsequent out is possible. If such an out, pursuant to these rules, prevents the 'winning runner' from being a run, the game continues. Rule: 4.09a1, b: There cannot be a run if a runner has touched (or passed) home base, but there is related action wherein D. the third out is the batter/runner before touching (or passing) first base... ..and just in practical terms, a player who is hugging and mobbing his teammates in the middle of the field meets my criteria of 'not attempting to reach his next base.' You cannot wait there all day/night for him to eventually find hisself some DBT so you can ring him up :D |
I'll buy that. Now comes the big question. How long do you stand there and wait before you call the BR out? You'd have to stand there until the celebration stops and possibly all the way through the hand shake line up as he hasn't deserted until he enters the dugout. Man, what a $hit storm that's going to create.
Tim. |
Ahhh, you edited your post in anticipation of my question. Thank God I've never had to make this call.
Tim. |
That's why you can't wait until DBT, unless he immediately goes there. Being the end of the game, you can't be sure he'll even re-enter the dugout again - he might head straight for Dairy Queen :D
Meanwhile, the defense has left the field, packing their gear, drifting off to meet mom and dad....no, clearly this won't work. Judgment call....allow a little time for a coach or someone to yell, clue him in, but once the dugouts empty and I've got a mob in the middle of the diamond, I have no heartburn calling him out. JMO, your mileage may vary! |
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Something else to consider, Tim. As the Oracle said, "This will really boil your noodle" if..... the batter/runner is met by his coach and they hug in joy, you can ring him up for coach's interference! :D |
LMan, you'd have to judge that the "hug" was assistance in order to call interference, which seems to me unlikely.
I appreciate the sentiment, however: whenever possible, make it the coach's fault! |
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Here is what I did: I chickened out because my rules knowledge was not strong enough and allowed the winning run. I left the field, waited about three minutes and then came back and called the coach aside to tell him what happened. I told him that had the batter gone into the dugout, I would have called him out and not allowed the winning run. He understood....but I am not sure he would have been so understanding had I known all this information at the game and made the "correct" call. |
This would be one of the toughest things to call in baseball - nullifying a winning run like this.
I'm on the fence on whether i'd stick around to watch the BR touch or if i would bolt after R3 touches home. |
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It may be a tough call, but coaches need to coach, and they should have drilled it into these players' thick skulls to always touch first base in these situations. |
I would hang around until the defense said something or walked away....if the coach did not want to say something why should I. I know it's the rule, but why go that far to look for trouble unless the defense requested that you did.
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Why thank you for your generous compliment. ;) Were I the defensive coach in BayStateRef's situation, I'm honestly not sure what I would do. For two reasons. 1. I'm not sure I would have the "stomach" to challenge the umpire's failure to call the runner out for "desertion" per the 4.09 Penalty. When I say that, I don't mean that I would be "afraid" to or "too intimidated" to do so, it's more a question of my peculiar notion of fairness. The PRIMARY reason the other team scored the (apparent) winning run is that my pitcher threw a wild pitch for ball four. Too my way of thinking, the fact that the umpire didn't "bail me out" by making what MAY be the "technically correct" ruling on the play is NOT the kind of thing I would typically "appeal" on. The umpire's ruling didn't put my team at a material disadvantage, my team' PLAY did. 2. If I were to find the "stomach" to appeal, I can't figure out HOW I would do it in a procedurally correct way that would not somehow "tip-off" the offense that the BR really ought to complete his award. My thinking on this question is also materially influenced by the commentary of a gentleman named Bob Pariseau in his reply to me on a similar (though not identical) situation on a different board from a couple of years ago. Rather than try to paraphrase what he said (and screw it up), I will simply "cut and paste" his comments here for the edification of those who care to read it. Quote:
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Hm. What I'm getting from Bob's (as usual) superb writeup is that we wait for either an appeal or a play on the B/R for failing to complete his advance. In our OP (unlike Bob's) a successful appeal will nullify the run and start extra innings. But how long do you wait?
I guess until the runner enters DBT or other circumstances end any chance for appeal (defense leaves infield, etc). A rather unsatisfying answer, to my small mind. I don't understand your angst, JM. You can't really be serious that you would not appeal a decision that would save a loss and send your team into extras? They are going to rescind your Cheese Eaters' Club card any day now :D |
I'd wait and talk to my partner on the field, kill about one or two minutes. If the defense coach indicates nothing, then I got nothing.
By the way, I've been gone from the this chat room for a while, I like the format. |
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Neither do I. As a matter of fact, the rules explicitly and unequivocally state that "abandonment" is NOT an appeal play. The umpire calls it when he judges that it has occurred. I aslo find PWL's assertion that is a simple missed base appeal just plain wrong. It's not. The runner did not advance past his advance base without touching it - he simply hasn't advanced to it - yet. I'm a little curious as to what exactly Rich I. advised the manager to do in the LL tournament game. When I have thought about it, were I to choose to do so, the only thing I can think of would be to: 1. Make sure my (defensive) players did NOT leave fair territory. 2. When the BR finally entered the dugout or left the field of play OR the umpires started to leave the field, request "Time!" and then appeal their misapplication of the 4.09 Penalty. However, if the umps start to leave while the BR is still in LBT, a. I don't think it would be proper for the umpire to grant Time prior to the BR completing his award (unless he had been "incapacitated"), andSo, Rich, what DID you tell the manager to do? BayStateRef, FWIW, I thought the way you handled the situation in your game was fine, & I don't think I would suggest you do anything differently in the unlikely event you encounter the situation again in the future. Per Bob P.'s comments quoted above in my earlier post. JMO JM |
Well, the point is not to see how we as officials can catch the offense napping here. If the runner is alerted by the def coach's request for TIME or other action, so be it. You will just have a CF as the runner scrambles around and the def tries to throw him out :D Stay sharp!
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I see you get my point. Also, since the BR's award is "without liability", the defense tagging him (or 1B) prior to him completing the award is "nothing" - other than possibly mildly amusing, in a third world kind of way. JM |
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The others have given you the rule and authoritative opinion on the subject at hand but now reality. When the winning run scores, we get to go home no need to go to extra innings, therefore, as soon as you see his teammates start to come out you put a stop to it right away. Something along the lines of: "Gentlemen stay in the dugout until the game is Over" That statement alone will get the attention of the BR to make certain he touches first base. This year HS has made it a point of emphasis to keep players in the dugout until the game is over. HS doesn't even want players coming out on Home-Runs either. Also, in the above situation given FED rules, ALL runners have to fulfill their base running obligations not just R3 and the BR. When it's time to Go Home make certain you go home. Pete Booth |
PWL,
I agree, one should look before one leaps. However, if you check the ruling you reference carefully, I believe you will see that it ONLY applies to a runner who has already passed 1B. As I understand the meaning of the ruling, it is that a forced runner who abandons prior to reaching his "forced to" base, even for the third out of a half inning, is NOT treated as a "run-nullifying" force out - rather, as you say, any runners who scored prior to the umpire calling the abandonment, are allowed to score. Unless the defense subsequently "appeals", thereby "establishing" the run-nullifying "force". On the other hand, ANYTIME a Batter-Runner is out prior to reaching 1B for the third out of the half-inning, no run can score on the play in which he became a runner. The ruling you reference doesn't say anything different. Good point about "looking & leaping" though. JM |
Pete:
Babe Ruth plays modified OBR. Just thought I'd throw that in there :D |
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My questions are: 1) At what point could you declare the BR out on an appeal, since he still can complete his advance to 1st base, by rule? and a very similar question: 2) 4.09(b) only applies when bases are loaded and 7.08(a)(2) does not apply either. How do you determine when the BR has waited too long to go to 1st? I think I'll wait till he's at Dairy Queen and call him out then.:) |
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The runner went charging into the dugout to hug his coach, thus "refusing" to go to first AND no longer able to do so. |
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Funny
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I have never seen this happen and now that I have seen all this discussion on it if I ever do I am on the way to the gate as soon as the runner touches home, dropping any baseballs I still have toward the home dugout. Since the batter-runner can go to 1B at any time as long as he has not entered the dugout I am not going to stick around long enough for a defensive coach to think this up. Once I am gone the defensive coach can't raise the question so he better be quick. And if I'm standing around like I am waiting for some event to happen he may figure out there is a reason.
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Tim. |
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If the B-R decides not to go to first--at all--you've got no choice but to declare him out and nullify the run. |
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I beg to differ. My scenario is far likelier than a batter deciding not to go to first base as discussed in this thread. You cannot leave the game before it's completed, and running for the hills to avoid doing one's job is just that.
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I didn't tell him to run. I didn't coach him to first. I just stated a fact -- and the fact was avaialble to both teams (F2 now knew that if BR didn't go to first "something was wrong.") I'd try to apply the same game management again. |
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Tim. |
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You NAILED it. While this thread deals with discussion and application of the rules, it has nothing to do with Reality. I doubt whether any umpire would want to prolong a game that for all practical purposes is over. As for me once the kid walked I would do one of 2 things. 1. As you eluded to: Tell the kid before he starts celebrating with his teammates "Hey 23 make CERTAIN you touch first base" or 2. As I mentioned before, once teammates start to exit the dugout, put a stop to it right away and say "Gentlement the game is not over" Sometimes these types of discussions do not conform to reality. When the GAME is OVER it's OVER. Pete Booth |
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He got to first and R1 made it to third. End of story. :) |
Okay, let's take this to an extreme. Tie game in the bottom of the last inning. A guy is issued a walk - intentional or not. He trots down to first, defense is oblivious to the fact that he walks over to the coach and gives him his batting gloves. He then strides into fair terrirtory and assumes a short lead off. Again, the defense has never witnessed that HE NEVER TOUCHED FIRST BASE. The bases are now loaded and the pitcher gets ready for delivery. Here we go:
1) BALK! 2) Wild pitch and the winning run scores from third. Okay, Blue what have you got? |
Game Over
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1 - Once the pitcher commits a balk, they cannot appeal the missed bag. 2 - Once the pitcher pitches the ball, they cannot appeal the missed bag. |
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Thank you for paying attention. This question was on a rules test for coaches a couple years ago. I recall two or three of them arguing that the same kid couldn't steal second base legally or that if he was obstructed going back to first, he would be out. Good Lord, I needed a beer that night. |
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I am confused by this thread. You said bases loaded and a walk to win the game? Right?
If that is the case, there is no issue of abandoning effort. Once ball four is declared, all runners are forced to advance to a base that they have been rightfully given. Under professional rules, that run scores no matter what the B/R or any other runner does. This is in both the OBR and the MLB umpire manual. Guys you are confusing this with the Robin Ventura homerun. If a player hits a homerun and decided not to run to 1st...no run. The reason is that the runners are not forced/given anything on a base hit. There is always the one exception that these players will do things that make no sense precisely when it costs their team the most. But seriously, you did this right but for the wrong reasons. Doing nothing was correct. For a quick and easy reference to see this in action, look at any MLB game where the game winning run was walked in. The base umpires are walking toward the lockeroom while the plate guy must stand there and see the touch of the plate. Don't think too much about this stuff. Abandoning effort is on homeruns and basehits...and those are time plays as of the instant the umpire declares he abandoned his effort. Reaching the dugout is for drop third strikes...once the B/R reaches the top steo of their dugout they are out when they could have advanced to 1st. This is definitely not an appeal play. We are not appealing anything that could prevent that R3 from scoring on this base on balls. Just thought I woulod help. Good to see the board getting back to the roots that are actually useful. Hopefully this is a sign that the last few months are in the past. Lets keep movinhg in this direction. BA |
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Only on non-awards do ALL runners in such bases loaded situations need to touch their advance bases. |
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For simplicity in remembering the differences in 2 out, bases loaded, game ending situations I offer this; -bases loaded hit, all runners must advance and touch to remove the force -bases loaded walk, R3 and B/R must advance and touch to end game. Other runners need not advance. |
Didn't somebody just say that? :confused:
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The bases are loaded in WWTB's situation above, but not prior to his example. |
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"Ball 4, You're Out"
There's an old joke regarding this. Bases loaded. PU: "Ball four, batter's out". Manager: "What do you mean, he's out?" PU: "There's no base open to put him. He's out". Bob |
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Other than his erroneous comments reagrding abandonment/desertion, I do find myself in agreement with the gist of the rest of his comments. JM |
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