over rule partners call...
 

Is there a time when you feel it is acceptable to over rule your partners call? Or do you just offer your view and let him make the decision to change his call? That's just what I did and he didn't change the call even though it was not right.

The situation is base loaded with two outs in the bottom of the 7th. The home team is behind 3-2. A routine ground ball to the shortstop but the throw to first was high causing the first baseman to jump. When he landed his foot was a good 8-10 inches to the 2nd base side of the bag. This was very obvious to me as the PU and also the first base coach and the B/R. My partner called "out". Needless to say the first base coach went balistic and asked my partner to ask for some help from me, which he did. I told him exactly what I saw and told him that it was up to him to change he call unless he was sure of what he saw. He didn't change the call...game over...it was a quick exit to the parking lot.

You waited to be asked for help, conferred with your partner, told him what you saw, and he didn't change the call. He should have came to you before making the call if he wasn't sure. It's his call, so if he doesn't change it, he doesn't change it. He should have told the coach he wasn't going to ask for help, if he wasn't open to having it reversed. He succeeded in making you look bad. Perhaps you should have said, "it up to you to do the right thing and change the call." Maybe he would have gotten the point then.

under the bus
 

Your partner did the unforgiveable! Forget that he shouldn't call an out without seeing it. Forget that he should have come to you for help before he made the call if he wasn't sure. The fact is he threw you under the bus by making it look like you agreed with his call!

I know there is never going to be solid agreement amoung umpires about going to you partner behind the plate for help AFTER you have made a call - but please - your partner could have pretended to be a man and gone with your call after coming to you.

I'll never understand why it is so hard for field umpires in B or C who are unsure about a pulled foot, to simply point at their partner and say, "did he have the bag!" BEFORE making any call. By the same token why is it so hard, when they are sure of their call, to simply say, "no coach I'm not going to my partner. It's my call and the batter/runner is out!"

Did your partner "see" F3's foot off the base?

Secondly, if you are using proper mechanics you should never miss seeing a pulled foot from B and C.

poor mechanics
 

You did the right thing by not saying anything unless asked; however, the bottom line is that your partner had terrible positioning or he would be able to see a pulled foot, etc.,

The fact that you told him what you saw and he ignored it even further indicts your partner.

A lazy official who just don't care.

Thanks
David

Hmmm. Two outs, home team down by one, the only chance to win is to score two (or score one and go into extra innings). Runners are all off with the crack of the bat. If you were watching the play at first, who was watching the runners touch the plate and third base, respectively?

My opinion, you should have had nothing to contribute to him. His call, let him make it. You should have been busy doing your own job. If you weren't, you messed up.

Good call, Thom!!

I don't know that I agree. The chance of a runner missing home plate when there is no play on him is virtually incalcuable, whereas, a play at first where you're partner may need help on a tag, pulled foot or basepath violation is, relatively speaking, likely. Also chances are very good that the runners touched their respective bases prior to the throw reaching 1st base anyway and the PU could have accomplished both tasks.
If r2 had cleared F5 and then BEAREF looked to first, I think he did good.
I certainly would not be making clear cut statements like 'you messed up'

Besides, he did let him make the call. He didn't offer anything until asked and then only told him what he saw, BU was clearly in err here, not the PU.

I agree. In the two man mechanics, the emphasis is where the "most likely" play is going to happen. Indeed, in this situation, 99 out of 100 times, there is going to be an out, but the UIC NEEDS to be paying attention to the pulled foot rather than worrying about runners touching 3rd and home. I see WAY more pulled foots at 1st than I see runners missing 3rd and home! PERIOD!!!

You did the right thing. Your partner is a moron if he didn't change his call after asking what you seen, and you clearly had a better angle! I would ask my assignor to never assign me to another game with a guy that did that! Most likely, that kind of request would assure that he never again did a higher level game! :)

Horrible. And blatantantly untrue. The PU's primary responsibilities on this play according to every clinic I've ever attended or taught at, in 2 different baseball rulesets and 3 different softball rulesets, is the runners touching. Any BU worth enough to have a real uniform to wear should be able to see a pulled foot in 99.9% of the cases. I'm sure you, as PU, would have the opportunity to see more pulled feet at 1st than missed bases at home or 3rd on a play like this, but if you miss YOUR responsibility because you were covering for a BU who could not cover HIS responsibilities, it will be YOUR hide tanned if you are being reviewed that day.

There are calls that belong to both umpires. This situation is not one of them. Do your OWN job first.

I'm not arguing the mechanic, but let's go to reality.

1. I'm not umpiring to please the evaluator, rather to arbitrate a fair game. As this case proves, it's much more likely fairness will be served with 4 eyes on first.
When was the last time you had an appeal at home plate for an uncontested run?
2. Bases loaded 2 outs bottom of 7th. Tell me the evaluators eyes are going to be on PU not on the play at first.
3. When evaluator sees the blatant miss at first, then sees BU ask for help and your response is "sorry didn't see it, had my nose pointed to home making sure the runner didn't miss that wide open plate." Tell me the evaluator is going to say "great job"

And for what it's worth, I'll guarantee you that you will be the only person watching the foot touch home. Every other eye in the park is going to be locked on to first. So even if he misses the plate by an inch or two you'll be the only one knowing. In the meantime you can explain to the coach you didn't see the play, but be assured coach I know the staus of r3 and home plate. I'm sure the losing team, after being rung up on a blatantly missed tag at first, will take solace knowing R3 touched home plate even if it didn't count.

I have always believed in the mechanic of "putting a call on the record" first. If the crowd or the base runner look at you strange then go get help.

Never overule your partner without being asked for help first. it makes you and the whole crew look bad.

Thankfully, I am not working games with you! ;)

As the PU, you can still watch runner's touch at 3rd and home, AND line up 1st base for pulled foot and swipes.

Simply, while on 1st base line extended, back up a little bit and widen your field of vision. You don't have to zero in on the bases and wait for the runners, all you do is watch the ball and glance at the runners.

It is a gross error, if as the PU, you neglect your responsibility to watch touch/tags of 3rd and home, bottom line.

I think I would have a post game with the guy. Number 1, don't make a call you are not sure of. Ask me about a possible pulled foot before making a call. Number 2, if you call an out, and then ask me and I tell you I saw a pulled foot and you don't change your call that makes me look like a fool too, so don't bother to ask if you are not going to use the information I give you. If you follow rule Number 1 you will only be asking if F3 was on the bag because you already know the throw beat the runner.

Regardless of whether or not the plate ump should have been watching the play or not, the field ump is a poor umpire.

He boots the call at first by not being in position, then when he goes for help and is told what happens he basically says I’m not taking the chance of this game going into extra-innings so, ball-game. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if this guy really did see the pulled foot and just blew it off to get the game over with, and then went to you to try to cover his a$$ after getting called on it. I really wish there wasn’t such a shortage of umpires in some areas so guys like this wouldn’t be able to get a job above T-ball.

I think after this game I would be making a call to my assignor and kindly ask not to be partnered with this guy again.

Pulled Foot
 

I am surprised at the nature of all these posts. Number one: if the BU asks for my opinion and i give it and the BU doesn't take it, why did the BU ask. If the BU. was sure of his/her call then he/she should not have asked. In this case the question was asked so he/she should have change his/her call
Number 2: I think that the PU can do more then one thing at a time. I think that if the PU was at 1B extended the BU would easily see the touches as well as the pulled foot.

Tha's just my 2 cent worth

Phil

I'm going to ask you Bear, did R2 touch third base? And did R2 run home and touch the plate?

My position at the time was 1st base line extended. The runner on third did cross & touch home plate. The runner on second stopped on third when the out call was made.

I appreciate all the comments and have learned many things from them. Thanks.

In the original play, the count was 3-2 with 2 out, bases loaded. So of course the runners would be running on the pitch. If this ground ball is far to the right of F6, then there is a good chance that the BR will be able to beat the throw. If R2 is fast, he might have a chance to score on this play.

I understand that you want to help out with the call at first, but what if R2 cuts third base, he misses it by 10 feet? You're not going to see that because you are staring at first base. You'll be forced to rule safe on the appeal because you didn't see it. I'm sure the defensive team will take solace knowing that you were right on top of that pulled foot instead of noticing runner miss a base by 10 feet.

Dangerous thinking - NIump and LDUB are exactly correct here. You have priorities at 3B and home, and a scoring decision on a runner is always a priority. You miss those worrying about your BU's call and you are setting yourself up for a sh*tstorm.

Stick to the established mechanics.

If you look at a prior post I specifically said once R2 clears F5. (see post #8 this thread)
Implied in that is
1. Checking for obstruction
2. R2 makes proper turn at third.

My comment you are reffering to was directly related to watching an uncontested runner touch home rather than seeing the play at first.
It had nothing to do with the PU responsibility at third.

"And for what it's worth, I'll guarantee you that you will be the only person watching the foot touch home"

I'll take solace knowing your criticism and sarcasm was unfounded, and probably due to your hectic schedule causing an inability to focus, comprehend and grasp the subject at hand.
As opposed to just unable to comprehend.

In the original play F6 fielded the ball. That means that F5 would have taken at least a step or two to his left from his starting position. When R2 clears F5 he is not at all close to third base yet. So there is no way that anyone would think you are watching the touch of third base.

So you are saying that touches of third are more important than touches of home? I guess you've never seen runners obviously miss bases on home runs.

A smart team would have someone in the dugout assigned to watch the base touches, and someone else to watch the umpires to see if they are watching the base touches.

Your posts in this thred are crazy. No one knows what side you are on.

Summary of this thread:

**Thom Coste says to watch the base touches.
**You reply to Thom " I don't know that I agree"
**pdxblue replies to you "I agree...the UIC NEEDS to be paying attention to the pulled foot rather than worrying about runners touching 3rd and home."
**mcrowder says pdxblue is wrong
**You reply to mcrowder by saying "I'm sure the losing team, after being rung up on a blatantly missed tag at first, will take solace knowing R3 touched home plate even if it didn't count."

So far it is Thom and mcrowder who say to watch the touches, and you and pdxblue who say to watch the pulled foot.

**pdxblue disagrees with mcrowder
**RPatrino says to watch base touches
**I disagree with you (remember pdxblue is on your side saying to not watch the touches)
**You claim that you are for watching the base touches, going against what pdxblue would do

Obviously no one on this forum can understand which side of this discussion you are on.

Since I started this mess let me ask the question again....Is there a time when you feel it is acceptable to over rule your partners call? Or do you just offer your view and let him make the decision to change his call? That's just what I did and he didn't change the call even though it was not right.

Let's change the situation of the original post to no one on base. The responsiblities for the PU are significantly reduced in this scenario. Would you act or react differently in this situation if the original "blown call" was not changed?

Or the ball could have been a shot one step to F6s right and F5 moved to the bag in case F6 came his way for the force. Therefore putting F5 directly at the bag.
I'm not going to write a book to cover all the possibilities. I think most people caught the implication when I said R2 clears F5. If you didn't understand, maybe you could have asked.
I also could not just say "once r2 touches third" because F5 could be sitting on the corner of the bag or playing in on the grass and could still obstruct after the touch. R2 clearing F5 seemed to be a general enough statement to get my point accross.



I was speaking specifically to this situation, not a homerun where all the focus is on the BR.
When was the last time you had an uncontested runner miss the plate while a play was being made on another runner and had it appealed?



You're joking right?
In this sitch everyone in the defensive dugout and on the field will be watching 1st as the throw leaves F6s hand.



I agreed at third, posted my exception for home.
I noted that seeing both was probable, but in this situation I would not forego watching first to see the foot hit home.

What has this got to do with me?
PDX mispoke if he is coupling his agreement with me to ignoring 3rd.

That is a correct quote. IMO, Mcrowder was saying that PU had no business watching first, only responsibility was to watch R3 touch home.
This quote was in response to that sentiment.
I still stand by my posts.
In this situation, PU seeing the play at first trumps watching R3 touch home if doing both can't be done.

Oversimplification, but with a wide brush is true.
Perhaps that is all you are capable of.

On the contrary, I think most understand which side I'm on.
They may not agree with my side, but I've been very clear.

In case you still don't know where I stand, here's the simple explanation.

Third base important
Home plate not as important as first.

I feel for you. Seems like you seeing the play was a bigger atrocity than the pile of crap on the infield intentionally making the wrong call, but this is your partners call and there isn’t really anything you can do about it. If you tell him what you saw, whether you should have been looking or not, and he chooses to ignore it, then that is his choice. Your choice can then be to go home and tell your assignor that you don’t want to work with this guy ever again. It is obvious one of two things happened. Either your partner is an *** and doesn’t want to admit he got a call wrong, or he just didn’t want to take a chance on the game going to extra innings. Either way it reflects poorly on you and your association.

Then again, your assignor could be like these guys and say what the hell are you doing watching that play at first for anyway instead of having to deal with an obviously incompetent umpire.

I think after this game I would be making a call to my assignor and kindly ask not to be partnered with this guy again.[/QUOTE]

Even though this particular umpire demonstrated terrible mechanics and gamesmenship, the FIRST thing you do is be man enough to talk to him DIRECTLY after the game is over and away from everyone. That is where you have a SOLID discussion and vent out any problem you had.

This is not kindergarten where you go crying to the principal when someone does something you do not like.

If, after your discussion with him, you receive NO results, then by all means contact the assignor and refuse to do games with him.

If you go "crying" to the assignor every time your partner does something inappropriate you get labled a back-stabber.

Case and Point my partner "hung me out to dry" this past weekend, but in the parking lot after the game he apologized and realized what he had done. Hey it happens, it's only a game.

If there is something that happens in a game that you do not like, then FIRST be man enough to tell your partner "mono on mono" then if you cannot resolve the issue call the assignor.

Pete Booth

Even though this particular umpire demonstrated terrible mechanics and gamesmenship, the FIRST thing you do is be man enough to talk to him DIRECTLY after the game is over and away from everyone. That is where you have a SOLID discussion and vent out any problem you had.

This is not kindergarten where you go crying to the principal when someone does something you do not like.

If, after your discussion with him, you receive NO results, then by all means contact the assignor and refuse to do games with him.

If you go "crying" to the assignor every time your partner does something inappropriate you get labled a back-stabber.

Case and Point my partner "hung me out to dry" this past weekend, but in the parking lot after the game he apologized and realized what he had done. Hey it happens, it's only a game.

If there is something that happens in a game that you do not like, then FIRST be man enough to tell your partner "mono on mono" then if you cannot resolve the issue call the assignor.

Pete Booth[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I just figured that that was a given that you would be talking to him after the game. Even if we worked everything out, I would still ask not to be partnered with this guy for awhile. Hanging you out to dry is one thing, I can deal with that. Intentionally booting a call cause you want to get out of there or you don't want to admit you are wrong or you want to stick it to the coach or whatever lame reason he can come up with is something I won't be a part of. Guess that is just me though.

Couldn't disagree more.

I suggest you get yourself out to a clinic once in a while to learn about touch responsibilities instead of making it up yourself. You have to make sure you see him touch homeplate!


Tim.

Like I said in a previous post, I know I'm wrong based on the mechanics.
IMO, the odds are so overwhelmingly in favor of something like this happening as compared to the uncontested runner missing home that it deserves some critical thought as to where the priorities are given.

No sarcasm intended here.
But are you and others in opposition to my viewpoint suggesting we blindly follow the letter of the law re: mechanics with no exceptions while also saying it's ok to fudge a bit on rules if it's the 'expected call'?

I'm not suggesting the mechanics be rewritten. I think it would be impossible to do so in a comprehensible fashion. What I am saying is there is room for exceptions.

Umm, yes, teams do do that. I have coached at the high school level before and every game I assigned my bench players certain duties. A couple would keep charts, a couple more would watch the opposing coaches to try to pick up any signs they were using and yes, another couple would be watching for missed bags, tag-ups and if the umpires were also watching.

And as far as no one else in the park will see that touch of home, my catcher damn well better see it. He has nothing else to do at home with the bases loaded and the play going to first.

No. With respect to that part of the issue, what you did was correct, and what BU did was awful. While you shouldn't have been looking at what you were looking at (and a good BU would know that you weren't looking, and probably wouldn't come to you anyway), the fact that you were let you give information when asked. You should definitely do no more than that. There are calls that belong to multiple umpires (OBS, INT primarily), but pulled foot is not one of them. You should NOT overrule anyone on this type of play. OTOH, your moron partner A) shouldn't have asked you and B) should have changed his call after he DID ask you.

I don't need a clinic re: this issue. I know the mechanic and I know I'm arguing against it. I've said so in two other posts.

Why is it that some rules can be compromised with virtually universal approval and yet a mechanic cannot?

The odds of R3 missing the plate in this situation and being seen by a defensive player and being appealed is extremely miniscual.
The likelihood of BU asking PU for help at first, not so unlikely, in fact not even considered out of the ordinary.
So if you're playing the odds, where should you're eyes be to most likely avoid the proverbial SH**storm.
Let me finnish with this.

If, as in this case, F3 misses the bag, how many people, players, coaches, spectators and evaluators saw it? I'd say at minimum, 1st base coach, everyone in 3rd base dugout, most spectators on 3rd base side, pitcher, catcher and PU if he was looking.
If PU doesn't see this there's a whole lot of people wondering how this crew missed such an obvious call.
If, same situation R3 misses home, how many people see it?
I'd say, if any, 1.
Which of the two calls do you want to get right?

I'm not saying no one was assigned, though highly unlikely in most cases.
What I'm saying is these are 16,17,18 year old kids, bottom of 7th, bases loaded game winning out possibly being made at first, how many of these kids have the discipline to be watching home instead of their attention being diverted to first in this situation.
Like I said before, the reality of this situation is no one will even see a miss.

A good crew with a good pregame will probably have a sign that tells their partner they have something.
Nothing worse than one ump having a correct call and the other never coming to him for fear of hanging him out as well.
If you get the sign then at least you know you have the option of going to your partner.

While I agree that a good BU should have made the correct call himself, without having to ask for help, I disagree in that I feel the PU should have been watching for the touches of 3rd and home, as well as the pulled foot/swipe tag at 1st. All it takes is to glance at touches, it doesn't require a stare-down with the runners.

When there is a 1st to 3rd situation with R1 and R3, for example, I move up the line toward third, glance back to see R3's touch of home, and continue on my way to cover R1 coming into 3rd. I don't need to stay home and wait for R3's touch. I am able to perform several tasks at once.

I think the same thing applies here. The PU can see R2 touch 3rd, R3 touch home, and still follow the ball to its destination.

This is what the Official Rules Of Baseball says in its charge to umpires:

"Keep your eye everlastingly on the ball while it is in play. It is more vital to know just where a fly ball fell, or a thrown ball finished up, than whether or not a runner missed a base."

It goes on to say:

"If you are sure you got the play correctly, do not be stampeded by players' appeals to "ask the other man." If not sure, ask one of your associates. Do not carry this to extremes, be alert and get your own plays. But remember! The first requisite is to get decisions correctly. If in doubt don't hesitsate to consult your associate. Umpire dignity is important but never important as "being right.""

Never. If he asks I tell him what I saw and it's his decision to change or not. But if I tell him I saw something different than he called and he don't get it right we will have that post game discussion I mentioned earlier because I don't understand why he asked for help and then did not use the information.

Here's where I am on this: of course I agree that PU should be able to glance at the runners touch 3B and/or the plate without difficulty, and probably still see the foot at 1B. In this case, sure, if you see a pulled foot/whatever you give BU what you saw. But its still his call.

What I completely disagree with is your expectation/insistence that the PU prioritize his 'piggyback' of the 1B call over the touches at 3B and home. Its similiar to PU coming up to take the play on the lead runner at 3B in a R1-only situation: PU helps there if he can, but if he has to stay on the line to make a fair/foul call, then that's tough luck for the BU, the BU has to take that call.

Because the fair/foul call is the PU's priority. Just like the touch of 3B and HP is here.

It's amazing how good ol' common sense can get you thru most baseball situations.
Some of you should try it.