Delayed Dead Ball or Not?
 

R2 and R3. Batter misses a bunt on a squeeze play and the runner from third get caught in a rundown. After making the throw to third, the catcher stays in the baseline and the runner runs into him and falls down. Is this an immediate dead ball or is it delayed? Where is the runner on second placed at the end of the play?

Thanks

I say it is a delayed dead ball in both FED and OBR. In OBR, it is type B (or 2) obstruction, as a play is not being made on the runner at the time of the obstruction. If R3 advances to 3rd on the play, he stays there. If not, he stays at 2nd base.

Quote:

Originally Posted by harmbu R2 and R3. Batter misses a bunt on a squeeze play and the runner from third get caught in a rundown. After making the throw to third, the catcher stays in the baseline and the runner runs into him and falls down. Is this an immediate dead ball or is it delayed? Where is the runner on second placed at the end of the play? Thanks

In OBR this is Type (A) OBS since the defense was playing on R3.

1. The call is TIME
2 That's OBS
3. Award R3 home.

Now we have R2. It's umpire judgement as to where to place R2. Generally speaking if R2 was halfway or greater to third base, award R2 third. If he was 1/3 of the way keep him at second.

In FED, we do not have to worry about the placement of R2 because in FED OBS is a delayed dead ball and we wait until all playing action is over before enforcing. Playing action ends, when all runners have stopped advancing.

Pete Booth

Pete is right. Type A in OBR on a rundown play.

I'm not going to allow R2 to advance to 3b if he was nowhere near 3b when obstruction occured and the ball is rolling around due to the obstruction. It may be delayed dead, but the offense will not gain an advantage.

"There is no such thing as a delayed deadball under Major League Rules. It is live, or it is dead. It might become dead in the future, it might not. But there is no delayed deadball. That's a high school thing."

Jim Evans, November 2004

I must save this post for BigUmp56, with whom I have had a running fued over this issue for some time now. I have long held that there is no delayed dead ball in OBR. There is in Little League, and they use the FED signal too. But in any other league with an OBR rule base, there is no such animal. In OBR, you point at the play and say "that's Obstruction," and you don't stick your left arm out to the side.:p

Tim, I'm not often right, but in this I am. I used the example in my original post to see if I could draw out some opinion to match my own, and I did. Apparently Reverend Jimmy agrees.:)

Do you know how Evans reconciles that statement with his repeated references to "delayed dead ball" to explain some types of interference, balks, and type B obstruction, in his book Baseball Rules Annotated?

No...... how?

I don't know, I'm asking Garth.

Personally, I believe the 2004 comment on its own must be out of context with respect to the point Evans may have been making. While there is no specific or explicit reference to "delayed dead ball" in the rules, there most certainly is a "delayed dead" principle, it is applied in several situations, and Jim Evans damn sure knows it.

Why the huff?

In person, Jim teaches that there is no such animal as a delayed dead ball. It is either live or dead. His favorite example is batter's interference with the catcher's throw on a stealing R1. The ball remains live on the interference; then if the offense does not retire the runner, time is called, the ball is dead and enforcement follows. If the runner is retired, the interference is ignored, the ball remains live. Thus no need for a "delayed" dead ball.

His 2004 comment was repeated, to my personal knowledge, again in 2006 and probably many other times. I did not take it out of context.

I will ask him how he reconciles his teaching with his writings, but I will accept what he has instructed. I see no problem with it.

No huff was intended, merely confusion at what appear to be extremely contradictory statements by the same person, a universally recognized expert on the rules of baseball.

I don't understand the point of proclaiming there is no such thing as a delayed dead ball, unless it is merely to point out that the rules are not explicit about it, but indeed the proper enforcement mechanism for several instances is very aptly described as utilizing the concept of a "delayed dead ball," just like Jim described in in his book.

I won't presume to speak for Evans, but FED does have a third "status" for the ball, in addition to live and dead, and signalling that status has its own mechanic (fist held out to the side). THIS is what OBR does not have.

The concept of calling "time" at the end of playing action in order to enforce a penalty might be (and often is) labeled "delayed dead," but that's not the language of the OBR.

The trick is to use the concept without suggesting that the ball has a distinct status unavailable under OBR.

That's all well and good, but if we're only talking semantics, we might as well be discussing why it's catcher's interference in OBR and catcher's obstruction in FED. It's the same offense, and it's the same enforcement - delayed dead - whether we call it that or not.

I think it is more accurate to deal with as Evans teaches. Will the ball ALWAYS become dead on catcher's interferenece? Or will it either be dead or live depending on circumstances? If it is not assuredly to become dead, that is, it may remain live, then why would you want to always call it delayed dead?

I think it's fair to answer yes, the ball always becomes dead on catcher's interference - at the end of the play. At the end of the play, the proper enforcement is applied. The concept of "delayed dead" is simply there, and simply taught, to teach umpires to NOT immediately kill the ball when you have "delayed dead" infractions such as umpire interference, catcher interference, batter interference, balks, coach assistance interference, and type B obstruction.

This comment from Evans in describing umpire interference is pretty telling, if you ask me:

The rule book mistakenly states in both 2.00 Interference and in the prefix of 5.09(b) that the ball is dead. The ball is not dead until the result of the play is known (a delayed dead ball). At that time, the proper enforcement of
the rule should follow.

This statement by Evans seems to answer your question as I have, with a "yes."

I just fail to see the purpose or any educational benefit of stressing that "delayed dead ball" is not in the OBR, when the enforcement principle of delayed dead ball most assuredly is.

No Little League publication that I'm aware of that addresses umpiring mechanics, including the Rules Instruction Manual, the Umpire Clinic Manual, or The Umpire in Little League booklet, teaches the FED delayed-dead signal. Little League rules are derived from OBR, verbatim for the most part, and their training manuals are parallel with professional training with respect to signaling and enforcing delayed dead situations (e.g., pointing and saying "That's obstruction" and then letting the play continue for type B obstruction).

If you're receiving contrary information at the local league or district level, that wouldn't be the first time that's happened, but your local instructors are "off the reservation" with respect to any official Little League instruction.

From talking with Jim about this issue, I believe he uses. and places parethentically, the term (delayed dead ball) as recognition that some are familiar with with the term. None-the-less, he does stress that a delayed dead-ball does not exist under "Major League Rules". (I have never heard him use the term "OBR")

It may appear to be semantics to some, but I see a distinct difference. Why not attend one of the classics this year and get this firsthand?

Dave:

Personally it doesn't matter to me what mechanic is used to signal a delayed dead ball in a Little League game, or if any is used at all. However, the Central Region school was teaching the FED dead ball mechanic when I attended in the late 90's. To my knowledege this is still an accepted mechanic.


Tim.

A Desert Classic is probably not in the cards anytime soon, but I do hope to make any weekend clinic he puts on within reasonable travel distance next time it's available. I missed a Texas opportunity a few months ago and really regret not trying harder to attend.

Wow, the late 90's - that's so last century, dude.

Let's ask the real LL experts - the Western Region gurus - on that mail list. I'll bet a type b obstruction during a rundown that they don't teach the FED delayed dead mechanic.

The problem with the week-end clinics is that there is just not enough time for a decent number of reps in any of the drills. I suppose it's better than nothing, but I think you'd be disappointed.

Here's the real deal
 

2005 Little League Baseball Umpire School - Rules Instruction Manual

7.06(b) If no play is being made on the obstructed runner, the play shall proceed until no further action is possible. The umpire shall then call "Time" and impose such penalties, if any, as in that umpire's judgment will nullify the act of obstruction. NOTE (1): When the ball is not dead on obstruction and an obstructed runner advances beyond the base which, in the umpire’s judgment, the runner would have been awarded because of being obstructed, the runner does so at his/her own risk and may be tagged out. This is a judgment call. NOTE (2): If the defensive player blocks the base (plate) or base line clearly without possession of the ball, obstruction shall be called. The runner is safe and a delayed dead ball shall be called.

“The Right Call” Casebook -- Play 7-5: Runner on first takes off with the crack of the bat. Seeing no trouble making third, he/she rounds second when he/she collides with the shortstop who is wandering around aimlessly. Runner continues to third and the ball beats him/her there. What is the call? Ruling: When the runner ran into the wandering shortstop signal and verbalize “obstruction”, but allow the play to continue. On the play at third, raise both hands above your head and call “time”. Explain obstruction on the shortstop, runner is “awarded” third base.

2.00 - OBSTRUCTION is the act of a fielder who, while not in possession of the ball, impedes the progress of any runner. A fake tag is considered obstruction. NOTE: Obstruction shall be called on a defensive player who blocks off a base, base line or home plate from a base runner while not in possession of the ball.

“The Right Call” Casebook -- Obstruction is the act of: (a) a defensive player or team member which hinders or prevents a batter from striking or hitting a pitched ball; (b) a fielder, while: (1) not in possession of the ball; (2) not in the act of fielding a batted ball, impedes the progress of a base runner or batter-runner who is legally running bases. Play 2-10: Batter hits a line drive into right center. Sensing a double, he/she immediately sprints toward 2nd. As he/she rounds first the 1st baseman steps into the base path and collides with the batter-runner. The batter-runner gets himself together and continues to 2nd where he/she is tagged out by a perfect throw from the center fielder. Ruling: Obstruction, delayed dead ball, on the first baseman. Call time and award batter-runner 2nd base.

INSTRUCTOR COMMENTS:

It is quite simple now for the umpires to rule on obstruction…if the defense does not have the ball and impedes the progress of any runner it shall be called obstruction. It makes no difference if the defense is fielding a thrown ball or waiting for the ball, if the defensive player does not have the ball in his/her possession it is obstruction if they impede the progress of any runner.
“Train wrecks are still going to happen and are not to be considered as obstruction. Example: Throw from the shortstop to the 1st baseman in an attempt to get a batter-runner out pulls the 1st baseman down the line toward home plate and the 1st baseman and the batter-runner collide. This is a train wreck because the defensive player is doing what he/she should be doing (fielding the ball) and the batter-runner is doing what he/she should be doing (running the bases).

Most actions related to obstruction concern who has the right-of-way. The defense has the right to the baseline on a batted ball or when he/she already has the ball in his/her possession. The offense has the right to the baseline in all other occasions, including on a thrown ball.

A “fake tag” is a dangerous play and must not be allowed to continue. In addition to the calling of obstruction, the player and team should be warned. Further instances could result in ejection.

There is a difference between a “decoy” and a “fake tag.” A decoy results in confusing the base runner who is not watching his/her base coaches. A fake tag results in the player sliding when he/she doesn’t have to slide.
_____________________________________________

No delayed dead ball signal specified.

Right, no delayed dead ball signal specified. Specifically, no instruction to hold your fist out at your side and run around like that while the play continues, which is the FED mechanic. That's what I'm saying, that Little League does NOT teach the FED mechanic. You're the one who said they DID.

In the LL Umpire Clinic Manual, they have several pages of "basic signals." FED-style delayed dead ball is NOT among them.

The RIM instruction is consistent with standard pro mechanics - point at the infraction, verbalize it ("That's obstruction" or "Interference" or "That's a balk"), and then let play continue. Just like Evans instructs in his book.

I think you have me confused with someone else. I have never used the FED mechanic on an OBR or LL game in my life. Perhaps you are thinking of someone else? (Maybe BigUmp56 with whom I have been arguing this for some time now?)

Awaiting retraction.

Oh, and I didn't need Evans' book to tell me this, I learned my mechanics long before Jim ever dreamed of having an umpire school or writing any books.

Dave & all,

Desert Classic is back in 2006! http://www.umpireacademy.com/desert_classic.php

In post 7 of this thread, you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
"There is no such thing as a delayed deadball under Major League Rules. It is live, or it is dead. It might become dead in the future, it might not. But there is no delayed deadball. That's a high school thing."

Jim Evans, November 2004

I must save this post for BigUmp56, with whom I have had a running fued over this issue for some time now. I have long held that there is no delayed dead ball in OBR. There is in Little League, and they use the FED signal too. But in any other league with an OBR rule base, there is no such animal. In OBR, you point at the play and say "that's Obstruction," and you don't stick your left arm out to the side.

Tim, I'm not often right, but in this I am. I used the example in my original post to see if I could draw out some opinion to match my own, and I did. Apparently Reverend Jimmy agrees.

Emphasis added to pinpoint where you said Little League uses the FED delayed dead ball mechanic (signal).

Really? Jim began his research for his book on the rules almost as soon as he began umpiring. He would spend his off days on the road at libraries researching and taking copious notes. Most people have no clue as to how the JEA was born, or how thorough it was researched and prepared.

Most people also don't have a clue as to Jim's imput into the formalization of pro-mechanics and his input into what eventually became PBUC's publication known as the "Red BooK".

Your recent attitdue towards Jim Evans confuses me. I've seen posts from you on various sites in which you sarcatiscally lyrefer to him as "Oz", or "Reverend Evans" among other terms.

Whatever you may think of the man personally, baseball, and the umpiring community specifically, are greatly in his debt.

Jim is regarded by active ML umpires and ML Baseball in general as the leading expert in baseball rules, their origins, traditions and modern interpretation and usage. Even the changes made this year, seven years after his retirement, were among the those proposed by Jim years ago.

I realize you "could have been a ML umpire", as you were once so fond of telling us, but I am amazed that one who has never met the man can voice the contempt I read in your posts.

I refer to Evans as "Reverend Jimmy" simply because all you MLB umpires' jock sniffers worship him like a God. I have nothing against him at all. In fact, I quote his interpretations often. Probably never met the man because I live in a NL town, and he was an AL umpire. I have met and spoken with many NL umpires, but alas, no AL umpires. Jim Evans was not one of my favorite AL umpires either, but his dedication to the rules, their history and application, is unquestionable.

BTW, where can I obtain a Jim Evans book on the rules? I have searched high and low, and cannot locate a copy.

Garth, is there some reason you continue to reference my past remarks? That kind of thing would get a coach run in a baseball game, but since I said it, you think it's fair game? I wasn't "so fond" of saying I could have been a pro umpire. I said it a grand total of one time, to which you proceeded to laugh me off the board. We all could have been ML umpires if the circumstances had been different, don't you think? I think most good umpires at one time or other have felt the same way. I just made the mistake of voicing my thoughts. I never thought I could be a soldier, but after boot camp and AIT, I became a good one. A little training and experience go a long way in life, and baseball is no different.

What makes one a Major League Umpire jock sniffer, Steve? According to you, you have "met and spoken" with a number of major league umpires. Probably far more than me. You refer to the MLB umpires from your region more than anyone else I've seen post. You drop more names of pros you've worked with than anbody on the internet.

Does that fact that I attended an eight day Evans Classic make me a MLB jock sniffer? Maybe because we became friends and stayed in contact does it, huh? Could it be because I have the JEA? What is it, Steve?

If you really mean to attack the jock sniffer, Steve, then why do you aim your barbs at Jim? That makes no sense. You say you have nothing against him, but you insult him constantly. If you really mean to aim your insults at the "jock sniffers", then here, take a shot at me. Free. Go ahead. You seem to need to, have at it. After all, I respect Jim, admire Jim and count him as a friend. Let me have it. I must be freaking jock sniffer.

Oh, and as for your comment: "I never thought I could be a soldier, but after boot camp and AIT, I became a good one. A little training and experience go a long way in life, and baseball is no different." Carried to it's natural conclusion, then if you went to music school, you could have been a top concert pianist. If you went to art school, you could have become a great sculptor. What nonsense. It takes more than training and education. It takes skill and ability refined to a very high degree. The same thing applies to umpiring. Very few of those who attend pro school and receive training make it to the Majors. But you insist you'd be one, because, what the hell, "baseball is no different." It is to laugh. You are to an MLB umpire what a bar room piano player is to Van Cliburn. But don't feel bad. We all are. It's just that most of us know it, admit and can live without denying it.

Gentlemen,

While I find the "sidebar" regarding Jim Evans' authority as interesting as Garth seemed to find my recent "Constitutional excursion" on another thread, my mind is pretty much made up on that question, and I have no interest in wasting my time trying to otherwise convince anyone who doesn't already understand that Mr. Evans has most likely forgotten more about the rules than most of us will ever know. (Never met the man. My loss, not his.)

However, I did find Garth and Dave H.'s discussion on the concept of "delayed dead ball" of interest. Here is how I think of it.

Under the OBR rules, a delayed dead ball is a "useful fiction". Under the rules, the ball is either live or dead during a game. Some of the rules dictate that certain events MAY eventually result in the ball becoming dead, depending on what happens following the event (balks, Type B Obstruction, and Catcher's Interference come to mind). In some cases, the ball subsequently becomes dead because of the COMBINATION of the initial event and the subsequent action. In other cases, the ball does NOT become dead because the following action results in the initial infraction being "disregarded" - as if it had never happened.

I have found that when first explaining something to someone, it is sometimes a better teaching technique to say something that may be "technically" false (e.g., "the ball is "delayed dead" in the following cases...") in order to help the neophyte grasp a basic concept or principle, rather than trying to introduce all the subtle nuances and exceptions when first explaining a concept or principle. Once the basic concept has been understood, it is easier for the learner to understand the unusual exceptions and, perhaps, more technically precise way of expressing the concept.

Likewise, as one learns more about a concept, his understanding and expression of the concept may evolve to a more correct or sophisticated way of thinking or talking about it. It doesn't mean the the earlier understanding was wrong, per se, but possibly not as correct or complete. Personally, I would doubt that Jim Evans' study or understanding of the rules ceased to develop with the publication of the JEA.

Then again, maybe this is all just some pointless blathering by a clueless coach.

JM

Many that attend music or art schools do not go on to huge careers as musicians or artists. But some do. Those who have the talent do. So what, very few who attend umpire school have what it takes. Several out of each class at least get a shot. Perhaps I should have said "talent, training and experience." I left out the talent part. My bad.

I don't really think I'm insulting Jim Evans by referring to him as "Reverend" or "The Wizard," damn, I'm just having some fun. You and some others worship the ground he walks on, and that's okay. And I don't refer to MLB umpires from my region, as in I geographically live near them. I refer to MLB umpires who are members of the same association that I was a member of for 20 years. One of them, Mike Winters, is an instructor in that group, and I have umpired with the other two. If there are MLB umpires who you have worked with, I would be interested in hearing about it. I certainly wouldn't put you down for talking about it. What in the world is wrong with being proud of your past accomplishments? I can't list World Series appearances or MLB All-Star games officiated, so I have to go with what I've got.

And your Van Cliburn analogy is flawed. I'm more like Billy Joel is to Elton John.:)

Steve,

So, if I understand your essential point correctly, you are saying that you are a pretty good and entertaining, rather than exceptionally proficient, umpire who is NOT gay? ;)

John

Finally, a coach that gets it!:D

If only you did.

Experience show that those who really have what it takes: talent, skill, dedication, drive, training, education, to become the best of what they do, indeed, become the best of what they do.

It's a hard fact for some middle age men to accept, but true never the less. From what you post and from what I hear from your San Diego brethern, you had as much a chance to become a major league umpire as I do to ever convince you that you didn't.

I doubt seriously that you have ever talked with anyone who knew me or my umpiring skills back when I first started umpiring in 1986. You may know some people who have known me recently, in my present, middle-aged condition, but even they could not honestly say that I am not a very good umpire. I would love to hear who these so-called "brethren" are. Don't believe everything you hear, as some people's opinions of themselves might also be overinflated.

Sheesh! All this jibberish on "delayed dead ball" and all. :rolleyes:

I use this phrase without hesitation because I view it as an umpiring term designed to enable people to better understand a situation. In this thread's original scenario of R3 being in a rundown and being obstructed in said rundown, I see no problem with explaining to a young umpire, a coach, or anyone else who wishes to understand this play that the ball here is dead immediately (Type A in OBR) and not a "delayed dead ball." Similarly, on a balk situation under OBR, I see no problem with explaining that the ball isn't always immediately dead, that it can be considered a "delayed dead ball." Using this philosophy isn't going to result in some kind of a protest or even the incorrect call; rather, it permits one to better comprehend what the eventual outcome of the play and call should be.

Truthfully, I think Jim's comments about "delayed dead ball" are the semantics of this whole argument. I, too, consider Jim a friend, and have worked with him and his staff before, but if he and I got into a discussion on this, I'm willing to bet he'd also have no problem with how this "delayed dead ball" term is used, at least in a conceptual manner.