Is this a journey into Smittyland?

[LakeErieUmp]

This one is for my personal development.
I was watching (in the stands, quitely) my son's 13 yr old travel team. R1 and R3. R1 takes off on the pitch. Cather throws to the pitcher for a cut-off play (why pitcher and not SS cutting in I'll never know). Pitcher throws to third to catch R3 who saw the cut-off play and headed back. Ball goes into dead ball territory. By this time R1 has already reached 2nd and has rounded just in case. BU and PU confab and give R3 home (correct) and R1 third.
Wouldn't the throw from catcher to pitcher (now an infielder, not that it matters) be the FIRST throw in the infield, and the pitcher to third base the SECOND throw, thus 2 bases from the time of THROW, not the time of PITCH?
Or is I thinking R1 gets home just me being too ticky-tacky?
Thanks for your input all!

[DG]

I used to have 3 plays ready to call with 1st and 3rd situation. One was throw back to pitcher, one was throw to F4 and one was throw the runner out. The most successful was throw back to the pitcher. If catcher comes up throwing hard the runner at 3B would often be off the base so far he would be an easy out for the pitcher with the ball.

Back to your other question. If R1 has reached 2B before the pitcher threw the ball into DBT it should be 2 bases from TOT, score R1.

[Dave Hensley]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

This one is for my personal development.
I was watching (in the stands, quitely) my son's 13 yr old travel team. R1 and R3. R1 takes off on the pitch. Cather throws to the pitcher for a cut-off play (why pitcher and not SS cutting in I'll never know). Pitcher throws to third to catch R3 who saw the cut-off play and headed back. Ball goes into dead ball territory. By this time R1 has already reached 2nd and has rounded just in case. BU and PU confab and give R3 home (correct) and R1 third.
Wouldn't the throw from catcher to pitcher (now an infielder, not that it matters) be the FIRST throw in the infield, and the pitcher to third base the SECOND throw, thus 2 bases from the time of THROW, not the time of PITCH?
Or is I thinking R1 gets home just me being too ticky-tacky?
Thanks for your input all!

Isn't it conceivable that the umpire judged R1 had not yet reached 2B when F1 threw the ball out of play? You may be only disagreeing with his judgment when you think you caught him in a misapplication of a rule.

[LakeErieUmp]

Yes, Dave, you're right on that point. And I certainly was not going to say anything from the stands since I don't exist there. However, in observing it seemed they were applying the first-throw rule as BU was looking at R1. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt of course.

[UmpJM]

LakeErieUmp,

I agree with DG in all respects.

On the "trick play" with R1 & R3, I've found the "fake throw to 2B" much more deceptive when the catcher throws to F4 rather than F6 - of course most F4s at that level don't have nearly the arm that most F6s have, so you've got to be confident that your F4 can make the throw home.

I also agree that the 2B award is a TOT, rather than TOP award. But it is NOT because it is a "2nd play" - as described, it isn't a 2nd play. However, the 2nd play condition only applies on batted balls where the batter has become a runner. When it is a first play by an infielder withoout a batted ball, the award is always a TOT award. (Ref. J/R, Multi-base Awards, TOT Award, Example Play #5.)

In your sitch, as long as the R1 had reached or passed 2B at the time the wild throw left the F1's hand, he should have been awarded home.

Doesn't strike me as ticky-tacky at all. Smittyland would be NOT awarding the runner home when the rules say you should.

JM

[3appleshigh]

From the description R1 would have to be real fast to have made it to 2nd before P throws the ball. It's not when it goes out of play, but when he throws the ball. In your description you talk about where R1 was when the ball went out of play, who cares. Where was he when P threw the bal.

[LakeErieUmp]

Yeah, that was bad writing on my part. R1 took off with the pitch. By the time catcher threw back to pitcher cutting off R1 was almost at second. By the time pitcher looked it over and threw past third R1 had passed second. That's what I meant to say - R1's past second at time of throw.