Feint from windup
 

I posted in another thread somewhere that the pitcher can only do 3 things from the windup position.

I have searched all of my alphabet soup resource manuals, etc., and cannot find a decent interpretation. I have reviewed all relevant threads on this forum through an exhaustive search, including the huge 9 page thread on throwing to a base from the windup, from last March. I can't find what I'm looking for.

So, with that in mind, I pose this question:

Is it legal to feint to 2nd and 3rd base from the windup position?

Rule 8.01 (a) Comments (2) says he may step and throw to a base, but it does not mention feinting. Is it a balk if he feints to a base from the windup?

It's very poorly covered in the OBR, but is expanded on more definitively in the authoritative literature. The only OBR reference I can cite is this from 8.05(c): "A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps."

This is expanded on in the MLB 2002 Umpire Manual, and the concept is repeated in other manuals.

MLB 2002 Umpire Manual:
When a pitcher swings any part of his free foot past the back edge of the pitcher's rubber, it is a balk if he does not pitch to the batter, unless he throws (or feints a throw) to second base on a pick-off play.

NOTE: The pitcher is required to step directly toward a
base when feinting a throw to a base.

A pitcher must step directly toward a base before throwing or feinting to that base, but he is not required to throw (except to first base only) because he steps.

Jaksa-Roder:
The possibilities of an in-contact pitcher's actions are:
a) to pitch,
b) to step and throw (or feint a throw) to a base,

Jim Evans:
Customs and Usage: A pitcher may not feint a throw to 1st base, but he can feint a throw to other bases if he steps legally.

Hope this helps.

I have all of these too, but I was looking for language that specifically deals with the windup position. All of the above seem to infer the set position, since that is the normal way to pick off runners. 8.01 (a) only says the pitcher may step and throw from the windup, but does not mention feinting.

8.01(b) doesn't mention feinting either, so why do you think it's allowed in one case and not the other?

Just where did you find the OBR ruling?

Rich,

He didn't find it anywhere - he made it up.

As I'm sure you know, it is incorrect. I did not find this surprising. Did you?

JM

Because in 8.01(a) it is specifically stated that he may step and throw only. It does not state that he can throw or make a legal feint. That is why I'm asking. It is not the normal case for a pitcher to attempt a pickoff from the windup position. I read the big, long thread from last year on the subject, and the consensus was that pickoffs from the windup position are very rare.

8.05(c) seems to indicate that the pitcher can feint to any base except first while touching his plate. Is it in the forum's opinion that this includes from the windup, or are they assumed to be talking about the set position, because feinting is specifically banned in the windup by rule?

Steve,

By my read, the OBR rules regarding throwing/feinting are identical for the pitcher regardless of whether he assumes a Windup or Set position.

I assure you that there are many coaches who "know" that it's illegal to make any pick-off move from a windup position without first disengaging. While this IS true under FED, it is false under OBR.

JM

Neither the OBR, the MLBUM nor the Jim Evans citations I gave specify that they are dealing with set position rather than windup. Windup and set are both legal pitching positions; if feinting were allowed from one legal position but not the other, surely there would be a specific proscription.

Evans has this to say specifically about windup:

Legal Actions From The Windup Position:
1. Deliver the ball to the batter.
2. Step with the free foot toward a base in an attempt to pick-off a runner.
3. Step back off the rubber with the pivot foot first. By doing this, the pitcher becomes an ordinary infielder and all rules pertaining to overthrows and awards are based on this fact. 7.05(g), 8.01(e)

I think that's as definitive as it gets; if it's not good enough for whomever you're trying to convince, well, all I can say is good night and good luck.

Good night and good luck to you too, sir!:)

That is what I thought too. That is why I was asking for anybody to show me different. Nobody has yet, except to tell me that I'm wrong. Why in the world would either: a) the rule book not specifically state that feints are permitted from the windup, or b) any interpretation clarify the question that begs to be clarified? We are left to think either a) feinting must be okay from the windup since it is from the set, and after all, there is no distinction made, or b) it is a balk since 8.01(a) as much as says so.

Applying this logic it would also be prohibited for a pitcher to feint to a base from the set as well.

8.01(a)

"From such Set Position he may deliver the ball to the batter, throw to a base or step backward off the pitcher's plate with his pivot foot."

Notice that there's no mention that feinting is prohibited from the set either.

I think Dave has the right idea. If feinting to a base from the windup was prohibited it would have been addressed.


Tim.

Steve,

Have you seen this (my emphasis)?

As you will notice, it says exactly the same thing regarding what a pitcher in the Set position may do as what 8.01(a) says a pitcher in the Windup position may do.

Then in the "comment" following 8.05(c), we have the marvelously tortured sentence:

which lets us know that the pitcher (whether in Set or Windup, since 8.05 makes no distinction between the two) need not throw in making a move to 2B or 3B.

The rules are identical for windup and set. You already "know" that a pitcher can "feint" from Set. Since the rules are the same, and no credible interpretation says you can't (legally) feint from the windup, you can.

JM

Okay, then the whole rule needs a rewrite in plain, understandable English. As it is, it appears to have been written by Norm Crosby.

I have gone 21 years now without ever seeing a feint from the windup. I have seen maybe 2 or 3 throws to 3rd base from the windup. I will probably go another 21 without seeing a feint from the windup. I guess I wanted to know just in case!

1-5-3 Feint/Throw Play
 

From the windup, the pitcher may step and feints to third and then step and feint to first. This is legal. Joe Morgan and Harold Reynolds types alway talk about how the play never works on TV. It is designed to see if the offense is planning to steal in an effort to keep it honest. Well, every now and then, it does work. I "think" this is what you had in mind in the opening thread. I hope it clears it up for you, if someone else has not done so already.

That play is very common at every level of play. However, I am quite certain that Morgan, McCarver, Reynolds, et al, are referring to doing it from the set position, as this is the position a pitcher takes on the rubber when runners are at the corners.

Balk?
 

If first move must commit him to pitch.

Why would you expect rule 8 to be any different from the other rules? ;)

Heck, maybe someone should come up with a "reorganization" of the rules book.

That's exactly why it's not in the book. As soon as one MLB pitcher does it, and there's a controversy, some clarification will be issued.

I thought that was called, "J/R?" ;)

Read a little farther...
 

8.01(a) ....From this position any natural movement associated with the delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration....

Not to beat this dead horse to death, but I'm trying to visualize how from a windup a RIGHT-HANDED pitcher can step and throw to THIRD base in an attempt to pick-off a runner without a "natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter". To first, yes, because stepping to first is not a natural move associated with a pitch. But can he cross his left leg over his right and throw to THIRD under OBR 8.01(a) and comment?
Also, I'm beyond confused in this thread. Where is there anything in the OBR windup rules that permits a FEINT to ANYWHERE while engaged to the rubber?
As always, your help is appreciated.

OBR: A feint to 2b or 3b is permissable from the set. It is also permissable from the windup. It is not permissable to 1B from set or windup.

FED: A feint is not permissable from the windup to any base.

DG - That's where I'm lost. I can't justify a feint in OBR since the options are throw (or feint) to a base or pitch. I can't see how from a windup a right handed pitcher can move his free foot across the front of his body toward third without making a motion natural to a pitch? His free foot has to come toward the plate on the way to stepping to third, unlike stepping to first. So feint or throw I can't visualize how a righty can do it.

The OBR, when addressing the pitcher feinting to a base, does not distinguish between set and windup positon - the rules simply and consistently say "while touching his plate." Specifically, the only enabling language at all in the OBR - the very awkwardly worded statement in 8.05(c) that says "A pitcher is to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base but does not require him to throw (except to first base only) because he steps" does NOT limit itself to the pitcher being in set position. 8.05(c) merely begins with "The pitcher, while touching his plate..."

Right, but from the set your free foot is in FRONT of your pivot foot so you can step to third without passing the plate on the way. From the windup your free foot HAS TO pass the plate since it's moving from the first base side of the rubber to the third base side, which looks like the natural movement of a pitch to the plate.

From Jim Evans:

A pitcher may use a motion common to both delivery of the pitch and delivery of a pick-off throw in some cases and this shall not be deemed a balk. For example: A left-hander starts his delivery to the batter in the same motion as he starts his pick-off attempt. This is legal as long as his motion does not violate any other rule.

I would consider a direct step to third base by a RHP that had some initial common movement with a move to the plate to fall within the concept Evans is describing.

LakeErieUmp,

If I understand your point correctly, you seem to be hung up on the free foot "passing the plate" during the (RHP's) direct step to 3B. Why do you think this should be balked? I don't think, in and of itself, "passing the plate" should be balked.

Balk experts?

JM

CoachJM - Because, traditionally, the set position was keeping runners on/throw back to base while the windup was concede the steal. R3 will take X lead with the pitcher in the set but will take X+ with the pitcher in the windup. If the pitcher can basically feint a pitch by stepping toward home but then continuing to a throw to third there is no difference between set and windup. That being the case, why would a pitcher want to use the set which takes away some leg kick and power behind his pitch? It seems the feint in a SET was read between the lines to let a pitcher - holding the runners back - not have to waste time throwing to the base he's feinting to.
But if the consensus is otherwise I'll go with what you all say from your better experience than mine.

It's the same thing as RH F1, from the set, swinging the free-foot pst first to throw (or feint) to second. The motion of the free foot, in-and-of itself, does not commit F1 to throw to the first base the free-foot passes.

Other motions F1 makes (the "rocker step", raising both hands above the head, etc.) might commit F1 to pitch. Merely moving the free foot toward third does not.

Now I'm seeing it. Thanks!