Mockery of the Game???
 

Doing a game tonight, i was BU. It was getting late and the visiting team (who was batting) wanted to complete the extra inning before it got too dark. One batter comes to the plate and swings just as the ball leaves the pitcher's hand- obviously just swinging for a strike so he can be out and they can hurry up.

The next pitch he does the same thing and the PU calls time and says "You're making a mockery of the game by doing this and if you do it again, you're outta here." Brief argument from the O coach ensued but nothing major.


So, is the PU allowed to do this? If this happened in one of your games, how would you have handled it?

bossman,

I find 4.15(b) pertinent:

What do you think?

JM

How is this any different than a coach who purposely delays a game when he sees a storm on the horizon and his home team is down by eight runs in the third? The magic sign machine in the third base coaching box now takes thirty seconds to deliver a take sign. Maybe he's on defense and he decides to switch pitchers again and again in the same effort.

Most of us recognize that the only travesty of the game rule concerns running the bases in reverse order. The umpire may have felt slighted but it is a strategy of one team, nothing less.

Except that there is a difference between subtlety and obvious mockery, WWTB.

I'm assuming these were younger kids, kids that shave( i like the new term)
would probably be more subtle.
They'd accomplish the same thing swinging at their toes when the ball was a bit closer and be just as obvious.
I'd have a hard time doing anything besides laughing.
Heck, we're always bragging about our quickest games and now one of us is telling the coach to slow it up.

UMP25,

I find your point well taken.

And I did not mean to suggest that the umpire declare a forfeit the first time the batter swings at a pitch when it is obvious that he has no intention of actually hitting that pitch. However, after the second time, I do think it would be entirely appropriate for the umpire to give the offensive manager a "heads up" that he's skating on thin ice.

WWTB offers two examples: 1. a base coach giving unnecessarily prolonged signals, and 2. a manager repeatedly changing pitchers.

In #1, the umpire should instruct the batter to take his position in the batter's box. Should the batter fail to do so, the umpire should call a "directed strike". If, on the other hand, the umpire allows the base coach & batter to illegally delay the game, he's not a very good umpire and needs some remedial work on his game management skills.

#2 is a little trickier. The manager may have a legitimate reason to switch pitchers. Each pitcher he brings in, of course, must pitch to at least one batter or retire the side before he is replaced by another pitcher. Unless he becomes "incapacitated" before doing so. If the umpire "feels" (which is, more or less what "palpably" means) the manager is simply trying to delay the game to gain an unfair advantage which is obviously not intended by the rules by doing so, he should put a stop to it. Umpire judgement.

Surely you don't tolerate this kind of B.S. in the games you officiate, do you WWTB?

JM

Take the strikes, take the outs, go home and relax.

Or better yet, post on this board and get your a$$ kicked.

In the original sitch...
 

In the original sitch, wouldn't the visiting team, who was batting, want to DELAY the game, so darkness would fall without the home team getting to bat in their half of the inning? Or just whack the cover off of the ball and stay up at bat?

In my area, games start at 5:00 and are always over well before darkness, so I'm not sure of the rule of suspended play due to darkness; if it's any different then a weather suspension.

Seems to me like if the vistor's stayed up at bat, and it got too dark, and the game was official "ball game!".

WWTB offers two examples: 1. a base coach giving unnecessarily prolonged signals, and 2. a manager repeatedly changing pitchers.

In #1, the umpire should instruct the batter to take his position in the batter's box. Should the batter fail to do so, the umpire should call a "directed strike". If, on the other hand, the umpire allows the base coach & batter to illegally delay the game, he's not a very good umpire and needs some remedial work on his game management skills.

If the batter has a foot in the batters box and his hand up indicating that he is seeking signs from his coach, a good umpire will acquiesce. How long is too long? Even in Fed, umpires are taught to permit certain actions as long as they don't unduly delay the progress of the game. If the coach wants to give 15 seconds worth of signals and you prohibit it, you are an OOO and deserve what is coming. Now the game will be delayed by you confronting the coac, batter or worse. You've just played into his hand.

#2 is a little trickier. The manager may have a legitimate reason to switch pitchers. Each pitcher he brings in, of course, must pitch to at least one batter or retire the side before he is replaced by another pitcher. Unless he becomes "incapacitated" before doing so. If the umpire "feels" (which is, more or less what "palpably" means) the manager is simply trying to delay the game to gain an unfair advantage which is obviously not intended by the rules by doing so, he should put a stop to it. Umpire judgement.

What level are you discussing? I can't imagine that you haven't witnessed this happening. Coaches request "Time" and then slowly stroll out to talk to the pitcher, buying time for a few more relief warm ups. Then they get back to the dugout and wait for the batter to get set. They then request "Time" again and make another slow walk to change the pitcher. This guy takes his warm ups and then proceeds to throw three consecutive balls. The coach requests "Time" yet again and spends his minute consulting with the battery. Ball four comes and we have another pitching change. Yada, yada, yada...come on coach, this happens at all levels with players who shave. It is a tactical strategy that works wonders when the sun is setting or inclement weather is rolling in. Again, if you step up and say, "I know what you are doing coach and I'm not going to allow it." He's likely to say, "You must know Dionne Warwick and her psychic friends. I'm coaching the team and need to talk with my pitcher. The rules allow it, don't they?" Then you tell him to hurry up as the other team starts chirping. He replies that he has no intent to rush the time he is legally permitted to spend consulting with his club. Just as the huddle breaks, his pitcher calls to the coach that his arm is hurting and out trots the trainer. Now you have an injury time out and the coach is doing what he is supposed to do...prevent his team from losing. I could have sworn you undestood this.

Surely you don't tolerate this kind of B.S. in the games you officiate, do you WWTB?

I let the players decide the game, coach. I don't interject just to placate another team. I understand the strategy and subtelty of the game. If one team is taking advantage of every rule they can, there is little that an official can or should do. Maybe the coaches at lower levels are bullied by OOOs, but most of the ones I encounter are very familiar with rules. I don't allow a team to cheat but I certainly respect good strategy. If the shoe was on the other foot, the griping coach would be doing the same thing. We can absolutely encourage good sportsmanship and urge them to hustle, but if you insert yourself into the game the delay will now be caused by you.

JM[/QUOTE]

If they had a big lead in the top of the 5th they would want to get the top half over with so the home team could bat before dark to make the game official.

We've been through this before. What difference does it make when the batter swings? I've had blow out games where the winning team was swinging at pitches in the dirt just to get the inning over with. As long as that's all the team is doing and no one is mouthing off, let it go. When the cry-baby coach starts the water works, remind him that his team can do the same. Just don't let it go any farther than swinging for the strikes.

PS - The reference to the blow out games is because here in CT, the State FED board has no Mercy Rule for High School games because the Head Coaches vote it out every year at the State meetings.

[QUOTE=bossman72]Doing a game tonight, i was BU. It was getting late and the visiting team (who was batting) wanted to complete the extra inning before it got too dark. One batter comes to the plate and swings just as the ball leaves the pitcher's hand- obviously just swinging for a strike so he can be out and they can hurry up.

Your thread is typical when daylight is an issue.

You need to have game awareness. Are the teams hustling in between innings. Is it good calibur ball.

If the game is so/so and you have 6 completed innings and there is approx 15 -20 minutes of daylight left then I recommend you call the game at that point. Simply tell the coaches (who cares if they do not like it) that in your judgement it's too dark to finish the game.

More often than not, if you start the top of the seventh you will encounter more problems and hear more grief then if you called the game to begin with.

For the most part daylight becomes an issue when the game is not very good to begin with. In my experience, when you have two good teams that are well coached the daylight issue is moot unless the game goes into extra innings.

IMO, swinging at pitches not in the zone is not cause for a travesty and is not supported by rule.

The game can become a pharse and at that point should be stopped. By pharse I mean a player purposely off the bag so he can be tagged out or a player hitting a single and not running so that the outfielder has time to throw him out. Purpsosely abandoning the base path to be called out or allowing your teammate to pass you to get an out.

Once the game does not resemble a game anymore, then it's time to stop and simply let the league president handle it from that point on.

In Summary: Stop the game before it's get ugly or rediculous. As mentioned if the game is not good, players are not hustling on/off the field and you have a regulation game (6 full innings for example) with minimal daylight left call the game.

Pete Booth

WWTB,

Perhaps you'll find Jim Evans more persuasive:

30 seconds for a coach to give signals?!?!?! 15 Seconds?!?!? YGTBSM! How long do your games last?

JM

Unlike football, but that's a horse of an entire different color. Ozz, I had a blowout in a middle school game yesterday- do CT middle schools have a mercy rule?

We had a situation a year-or-so ago that was handled similarly.
In the late innings of a game with a time curfew, the manager brought in a recently called up pitcher.
He and the catcher could not get on the same page and kept getting crossed up. The catcher must have gone out to talk to him four or five times to straighten things out. It was clear that they weren't intentionally delaying the game, but they were nonetheless.
The offensive team was frustrated, but not really vocal, as they were benefitting from the mixups.
The plate umpire took it upon himself to make a bit of a scene the next time the catcher tried to go out- leading the catcher out to the mound and ordering that he and the pitcher get their acts together and their signals straight NOW.
All this accomplished was blowing the situation out of proportion and drawing attention to it it could have been resolved in a better way.


Bainer.

So would these be mockeries?

1) In a tournament with pitchers limited to innings pitched, offensive coach notices that opposing pitcher will go over his innings allowed if he records one more out (innings are recorded by thirds). Coach instructs batter to step way out in front of the batter's box and hit the ball in order to get the automatic out.

2) In a tournament with a time-limit, coach of losing home team with two outs and only one minute in time limit instucts batter to do as described above.

3) In a tournament in which the team winning by one run needed to beat their opponent by a certain number of runs in order to advance from pool play has a pitcher who intentionally walks the lead-off batter and balks 3 consecutive times so that he scores the tying run so the game can go into extra innings.

[QUOTE=PeteBooth]

Quote:

Originally Posted by bossman72 Doing a game tonight, i was BU. It was getting late and the visiting team (who was batting) wanted to complete the extra inning before it got too dark. One batter comes to the plate and swings just as the ball leaves the pitcher's hand- obviously just swinging for a strike so he can be out and they can hurry up.

I don't require anyone to play faster in the fifth inning with the sun going down than I would at any time in the midday sun.

It seems that others concur with me Coach. While Mr. Evans speaks for those who work professional ball, his opinion of this matter means little to those who don't play without the benefit of lights and tarps.

In the real world, coaches applaud strategy and umpires acknowledge it. While I would certainly encourage the contestants to hustle, in both of my examples, they have done nothing illegal. In the original post, the coach has told his players to swing - isn't that one of the things they have direct control over? While it may be poor sportsmanship, would it be any different than having the batter square, bunt and then purposely slow to a trot for the out. How about this, the opposing (defensive) coach realizes that the game will never be official as the storm clouds are rolling in. This is a huge conference game and he knows that they will have to start it over. He directs his pitcher to just start walking everybody. Who cares if they walk in forty runs, the game won't count and it'll be raining soon? Are you telling me that the umpire should interject himself into this situation?

Yes, coach, my games take longer than yours do. I typically work nine inning games with multiple partners. We allow time for signals and respect that while our job is demanding, the stress a big time NCAA coach feels is pretty severe. I don't make my job tougher than it has to be. I don't expect him to make it easier either. Maybe we agree to disagree here, but as a coach I would think you'd understand.

did these situations actually happen?

i havent worked time limited games since my days in LL, but its not like a buzzer goes off and everyone grabs a towel and heads to the parking lot. if a game was like that, id be kind of shocked. arent time limited games "no inning can start after X:XX" or "no inning can start after the game has gone X:XX"?

I worked an American Legion tourney last year that featured six games in one day. They had a two hour and fifteen minute time limit, mercy rule and free substitution as adnendums to the standard Legion rules. In one of those games, the visiting team needed to score three runs to win. With the game right at two hours, the home team coach (now on defense) did all he legally could to slow the game down. He did the slow walk, changed pitchers after the first batter, second batter and then asked for an injury time out for his catcher, another long delay for a substitute that had to come in from right field. The other coach was going bananas and as the Legion Color Guard sat watching, proceeded to be ejected for harassing one of the crew. I was working third base and was clearly the closest to the coach, but he decided to turn his wrath on the younger guy on the dish. The problem was that the younger guy also works D1 regularly and knows how to deal with coaches like this.

In another game, the home team needed to get their half of the fourth in the books so that the game would be official. Since they were up by eight or nine and needed three outs in a hurry, they took 'pepper' cuts and then stayed in the box as they were thrown out. When the coach complained after the inning, I offered that if his kid would have thrown the ball into the stands, they would have had a runner on second and the inning would have continued. He smiles and told me that I should have coached his team.

Strategy means knowing the rules and how to take advantage of the ones that matter. They didn't cheat and despite others protestations, swinging at a pitch that bounces or is just released is not prohibited. Do you expect us to penalize a kid who just stands there with the bat glued to his shoulder? He too is just trying to strike out.

Yes, every single one of them.