Pitch counter - not allowed

[efllblue]

I was watching an 11-12 LL All-Star game last evening and when the 1st base coach (kid) came out to the field with a pitch counter in hand, the 1st base ump made him return it to the dugout.

My questions are:
- Where in the rule book does it state that a base coach cannot have a pitch counter, or maybe is it any "foreign" object?
- Would it have made a difference if the coach would have been an adult?

Thanks...

-Scott

[Rich Ives]

Why does he need the pitch counter - his pitcher isn't pitching at that time?

LL Rule 1.11(j) is the rule you're looking for. Bans, among other things, metalic objects. It only applies to players.

[DJWickham]

As a safety measure, LL Western Region instructs umpires to apply 1.11(j) to adult coaches and managers who come on the field (although the rule says "players").

[peter_s_n]

I cannot find anywhere in the LL rulebook where a first base coach is denied use of a pitch counter.
I'm curious..was the kid counting total pitches (pitcher limit?) or was he keeping track of balls and strikes for his manager?
The only reason I could think that the counter was to be removed from the game is if the kid's ball/strike count differed with that of the PU, or if the kids (possibly incorrect) pitch count was used to challenge the PU.

[whiskers_ump]

Most rule books when speaking of coaches
in coaches box state that only item they
may have in their hands is a score book.
How many 11-12 yr olds can keep a book

Dont see anything about umpires indicator.
And Rich not all indicators are metalic.


Never really understood why second coach
in 9-10...11-12..etc had to be player and
and not another adult, when the older ages
could use two adults. JMO but seems the
younger ages need the adults more in the
coaching boxes than the older ages. 9-10,
11-12's dont know when to hold/send runner.

glen

[Rich Ives]

Glen: Nobody said anything about an indicator - subject is a pitch (tally) counter. Rather than publishing the dictionary, they say "metallic object." [1.11(j) doesn't say anything about a spear or a chain saw either, but I'd bet they'd be banned.]

DJ: My watch will come off, but my rings won't as I've gained a couple of pounds. Gonna keep me off the field for that?

GLEN: There is nothing in either OBR or LL rules specifying that a base coach may only have a scorebook with him.

DJ: If it applies to coaches, does it apply to umpires?

Glen: In LL, you have to be in Big League (17-18) before you can use two adult coaches. Keep the kids in the game. Give the bench guys a job.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Rich Ives
Glen:

In LL, you have to be in Big League (17-18) before you can use two adult coaches. Keep the kids in the game. Give the bench guys a job.

Rich, do you honestly feel that 9-10 or even
11-12 year olds can coach a base. Advise runners
when to hold on fly....when to go half way...
remind them of outs and if IFR in effect etc...

glen

[bluezebra]

Base coaches may have anything in the coach's box related to the game. Scorebook, counter, stop watch, etc.

Bob

[Rich Ives]

Glen: re: base coaches.

1) the purpose of LL is to let the kids participate. There was a time not that long ago when NO adult base coaches were allowed. The LL congress (the DA's from around the world, not some faceless "they" in Williamsport) this year turned down a proposed change that would have allowed two adult coaches.

2) A player can't learn how while sitting on the bench. Being in a coaching box keeps him involved and forces him to think of whjat to tell runners.

3) It's a small field, you can direct most of the action yourself.

4) smart managers coach on the side away from their dugout, leaving the dugout coach to advise and control the other side of the diamond.

5) The runner's don't listen a good deal of the time anyhow, no matter who is coaching.

6) I'm not new at this, I started LL in '74 so I don't consider my perspective mere supposition.

7) If you can't deal with LL rules, go to PONY or travel ball.

[DJWickham]

[quote]
Originally posted by Rich Ives

DJ: My watch will come off, but my rings won't as I've gained a couple of pounds. Gonna keep me off the field for that?

Remember, I'm simply repeating the WR teachings. Your mileage may very. But, the Instructors actually discussed rings: you can keep your ring on even when you are skinny.

[i}DJ: If it applies to coaches, does it apply to umpires? [/i]

Absolutely! (Although we are advised that one BU should keep a watch in pocket} In our district, you can tell level of training of umpires by whether they are wearing a watch during the game.

[bluezebra]

When was the last time anyone saw a player/coach in Majors and below, actually give a runner instructions? They stand there like lumps. The team usually puts the kid in the box in front of their dugot, and a coach gives the instructions. These kids are not taking part in the game, they're taking up space.

Bob

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by bluezebra
When was the last time anyone saw a player/coach in Majors and below, actually give a runner instructions? They stand there like lumps. The team usually puts the kid in the box in front of their dugot, and a coach gives the instructions. These kids are not taking part in the game, they're taking up space.

Bob

Thank you bluezebra, my point exactly.

Why not put the adults in coaching box
at this level [9-10/11-12] 13 on up is
a good age for them to start learning
the other aspects of the game.

[bluezebra]

papasmurf:

I've said this since 1956, when I first started umping LL. I said it when I coached and managed. I still say it. It's an asinine rule that makes no sense. And it's the same with not letting an adult warm up a pitcher.

Another LL rule that boggles my little mind is the pitching rules. During the regular season, there are tight restrictions on how much a pitcher may throw. All of a sudden, during the post-season, these kids arms magically strengthen enough to remove most of those restraints. And then, again magically, those same arms, a year older, revert to being too weak to pitch too many innings.

Bob

[Rich Ives]

The pitching rules have a dual purpose. Keep in mind that LL is mainly a participation oriented, recreational program.

The days of rest rules are give the pitcher recovery time.

The six innings per week rule is mainly to force the use of additional pitchers, with the additional side effect of limiting the number of innings in a game. As most games don't go "extra," that part's just a secondary purpose.

[bluezebra]

LL has always maintained the pitching rules were to protect the pitchers' arms. But that goes out the window at tournament time.

Bob