Verbal Obstruction ?
 

High school baseball...
Runner on first....stealing 2nd.....as he approaches the bag the second baseman shouts "foul ball, foul ball". Runner hears that and slows up to return to 1st. Second baseman takes throw from catcher and tags runner out.
What's the call?

Verbal obstruction, award R1 2nd base, and at the end of playing action an umpire may warn the 2nd baseman for unsportsmanlike conduct, and that he will be ejected if he repeats the offense.

...not at the high school level....
 

By the time they get to high school level ball, these kids can police themselves.

There is no way I'm call "Verbal Interference" at the high school level because a second baseman called a ball foul. Coaches tell these kids- keep running until the UMP stops you.

Yeah, it's bush, but I'm not getting involved.
Shortstops yell 'back' at runners all the time to fake a pick-off- that's legal. Players shout 'going!' or 'runner!' to try to draw a throw- no problem.

It's not my job to protect the runner.

I'm not going to tip them off on a hidden ball trick, and I'm not going to give him back a base he gave up- whether the fielder misled him or not.


Bainer.

Here we go again. No, it's not legal for a defensive player to yell "back, back" in an attempt to drive the runner back. This is verbal obstruction and the following case play will bear this out.


2.22.1 SITUATION A: R1 attempts to steal second. F2, upon receiving the pitch, throws a pop-up to F6. F5 yells "get back, get back." R1 thinks B2 has hit a popup and starts back to first where he is tagged out.

Ruling: This is verbal obstruction and R1 shall be awarded second base.


Tim.

I don't mean to come off as aguementative- I'm certainly not trying to be- I'm just asking- what level ball is this case from? What league? What association? I can tell you that at no time have our local or regional associations observed any sort of "verbal interference".
In fact, we have gone so far as to advise umpires of defences to coaches concerns- such as "I didn't say it- he needs to listen to me, etc."
As I suggested, perhaps it's the level of ball, or the local association, I'm not sure- except to say that if I ever called it, I'd be eaten alive by the players, coaches, patners, and league officials.


Bainer.

Its called "NFHS" or FED, in some circles. The FED casebook specifically calls this out as verbal obstruction.

If you wish not to follow the FED rules, that's your decision.

I've never heard of NFHS or FED in my life. We don't use FED rules or guidelines.

We have no ammendments to the Official Rules of Baseball regarding verbal interference.


Bainer.

Bainer,

I see you are from Canada.

Here in the United States, there is an organization known as the National Federation of State High School Asssociations (aka NFHS, aka FED). They publish rulebooks, casbooks and officals' manuals for many sports that U.S. High Schools sponsor teams in.

Most (though not all) of the 50 states in the U.S. use these rulebooks as the governing rulesets for H.S. sports.

The FED baseball rules differ from OBR rules in many respects. For example, FED does indeed, explicitly have the notion of "verbal obstruction" in its rulebook, while the concept is completely absent from OBR rules. Another rule absent from OBR that is present in FED (and NCAA) id the Force Play Slide Rule (FPSR), which I see you commented on in another thread.

For someone who learned on OBR rules, some of the FED rules seem to make no sense and even to violate some of the basic principles which underly the OBR rules. Adding to the confusion is that the FED usually makes significant changes to the rules (and supporting casebooks) on an annual basis.

If you'd like to learn more, or order some FED rules literature, you can check it out at the link below:

http://www.nfhs.org/ScriptContent/Index.cfm

JM

Then you are apparently in one of the two states in the country that do not use NFHS rules (Rhode Island is one; I forget the other.)

Welcome to the internet, where you'll find other examples that there's a whole 'nother world out there beyond your livingroom.

Hooray for you. Regardless of whether you ever heard of FED before, you asked what association or level had verbal interference, I answered your question (as did CJM, in much better detail). The OP said, "high school rules", which explicitly implies FED.

btw, I never heard of Canada, either :p

[QUOTE=Dave Hensley]Then you are apparently in one of the two states in the country that do not use NFHS rules (Rhode Island is one; I forget the other.)

We do not officiate by Fedlandia rules here in the Peoples Republic of Massachusetts.

Doesn't seem like I'm missing much!



Doug

Dave, it appears he's from the 51st state, Canada. :) (No offense meant toward the Canadians!)

BTW, you must be new here, as 75% of the discussions will be about FED (NFHS) rules, which apply, as mentioned above, to all high school games in 48 states, as well as other organizations. Welcome to the site.

I thought that was Puerto Rico. :D

so just to clarify fellas..."Verbal Obstruction" is NOT located in the ORB (Pro rules)? I have seen it in FED...in fact it may have been on the test within the last couple years. Thanks guys.

That is correct. "Verbal Obstruction" is not specified in the Official Baseball Rules.

johnnyg08,

That is correct, the concept of "verbal obstruction" is completely absent from OBR, while it is explicitly present in the FED rules.

Some experienced umpires have suggested to me that, in "lower level" games that use OBR as the foundation ruleset, it might make sense to apply the concept (especially if it is the opposing coach who is verbally obstructing the kid runner) in such games. Personally, I think they've got a point and I believe 9.01(c) would apply.

Visual obstruction, on the other hand, is pertinent to both rulesets.

JM

coach, since it's not present in OBR, then it's legal in an OBR game? example: F4 is holding R2 on with V-cuts, slapping his glove and yelling "back." Yelling "back"/"foul ball"/etc...are legal in and OBR game? I know this post is rather redundant, but I work several one man games over the summer and I need to be 100% sure of these types of things before I enforce them. I couldn't find anything in OBR and you are backing me up here, so it's fair to assume that this type of thing is legal...though in some leagues, considered "bush"? Thanks fellas. Been umpring 8 years, though still a steep learning curve...these messsage boards are great!

Legal. Bush... but legal.

The term 'High School rules" does NOT explicitly imply FED- it implies FED if you are in the USA (not including apparently Rhode Island or Massachusetts- so even less explicit!). The original post does not indicate which State or even Country the situation occurred in. Our high school league follows OBA (Ontario Baseball Association) rules, also WECSSAA, SWOSSAA and OFSSAA guidelines- not FED.

My reply was based on OBR, which as a number here have posted, allow this behavior- and as they and I wrote previously- bush, but legal.

I'm not new here, and I'm not closed minded- thanks to those that suggested both. A question was asked, and I offered an answer based on the info provided- period. That's what the site is for...


Bainer.

Well if you're not new here, then how in the world could you have never heard of FED rules? I didn't feel I was being condescending by saying you were probably new ... I was basing this opinion on your own statements. I'm completely flummoxed that you could spend more than a week here and not come across the fact that a majority of the posts involve a discussion of FED rules.

Assuming your life includes your recent time on this board, how is this possible?!?!?!

Bainer,

I'm finding it hard to believe you have "never heard of FED" if you have been paying attention at all in the 3 years you have been on this site.

99.9% of high school baseball is played under FED rules in this country (only two of the tiniest states do not use FED rules), so the natural assumption, as dangerous as assuming can be, is that he meant FED rules when he said high school rules. You immediately chimed in with "not under high school rules," without stopping to consider that the majority of HS ball is played by FED rules.

It is possible because I don't get involved with league-specific debates.
If a question is about softball, I have no idea about the rules- so I know I can't assist, and I stay out of it. Same with little league, pony, legion, Babe Ruth, and all of the other leagues that I have no experience with or knowledge of- including FED.
This post, however, did not mention a league.

Whether or not the Forum is predominantly 'FED', it is not a 'FED Forum'. As has been illustrated in this thread- the rules can and do differ.


Bainer.

Nice deflection - doesn't answer the question. How is it possible for you to spend more than a week on this board (much less 3 years), and be able to truthfully say, "I've never heard of FED rules". You may avoid answering those questions, but in the process of avoiding them, surely you've HEARD of them.

And surely you can see why since the majority of the Baseball-Playing, English-Speaking world has high schools playing under FED rules, it is at least a BIT odd that you would make the assumption that (as posted in the OP) the phrase, "High-School Rules" would mean Canadian high school alphabet soup rules. You don't find that at least a LITTLE bizarre? (If you don't, then the OTHER guy was right, and you're amazingly closeminded - I'll give you the benefit of doubt here until you remove it).

And I didn't say the board was FED centric. We deal with LL, OBR, Legion, and all sorts of other organizations ... I was saying that 75% of the threads touch on FED rules in their responses (even if the original question was OBR). I'd also say that 75% of the threads touch on OBR rules too. It's the minority that manages to focus solely on one ruleset.

Dude-
He asked what's the call?, not what's the FED ruling.
I don't know FED because I don't do FED- I don't need to know FED.
I haven't heard of FED because I don't read through every thread on the forum. I scan the posts for something I can help with, or something I need help with.
Question was asked- question was answered.
If you choose to continue a personal attack, go ahead- maybe FED rules allow that too- but I'm done with this thread.

Thanks to all those who cleared up the FED/OBR differences.


Bainer.

Four states, because Montana doesn't play high school baseball at all and it appears Wyoming doesn't either.

It is legal, (although discouraged here in my state) for the fielder to yell "Back! Back!". The only time it is enforced as verbal obstruction, is when the verbage causes the runner to go back into the base, like it did in the earlier case play..

Peruvian,
At the state camp this weekend, this very subject was discussed. The
directors and instructors were adamant that this is to be inforced. I found
it ironic that this discussion came up, after we dealt with it over the weekend.

It seems un-American not to play baseball. What do young people do in Montana and Wyoming, rodeo?

Best idea you've had.

it pretty much does though. ive never once in the 4 or so years ive been reading this site read a single post about a high school game played under anything but FED.

O RLY?

I know it was. But they also said you can't enforce it unless the verbage causes the runner to react.

is there a FED rule book for rodeos? how about SWOSSAA, to be geographically and acronymically correct?

WECSAA is Windsor-Essex County Secondary Schools Athletic Association
SWOSSAA is South-Western Ontario Secondary Schools Athletic Association
OFSSAA is Ontario Federation of Secondary Schools Athletic Association

In Toronto we use OBR OBA and OFSSAA rules. The only differences are sometimes they use 1and1 starting counts for late games and inning counts for pitchers.OFSSAA championships are next week at skydome.

Legion baseball. Too cold to start play until the end of April and they start right up with Legion.

Boring stories of......Glory Days
 

So all the runner has to do is pretend that the shortstop caused him to dive back into second base, and we have Verbal Obstruction. That's just great. Who's bright idea was that?

[begin rant]Jeez, the kids in LL can't say "Hey batter, swing!" anymore, fielders can't yell "back, back" and slap their gloves. We are raising a generation of panty-waist kids IMO. I hate to be one of those old farts I swore I'd never become, who talk about the "good old days," but c'mon! When I was a kid (yeah, I know, they didn't have automobiles then) there was no "must slide or avoid" crapola. We slid hard, took out catchers, and played rough and tumble country hardball. We yelled "hey batta batta, what's the matta batta, SWING batter!!!" Then we became teenagers and discovered girls :D .[end of rant]