runner thought he was out
 

runner on 1st, ball hit to short who throws to 2nd base, 2nd baseman comes off the bag early and throws to first. the throw to first went over the first basemans head. runner that was on first thought he was out started walking to the dugout and was near the pitchers mound when he realized he was safe. he than ran to third and the batter took off for second, everyone was safe. did that runner give himself up when he headed to the dugout?

Nothing like the phrase "give himself up" appears in any of my books. Where did you get this?

And exactly where was the runner when he decided to run to 3B? Had he in effect retreated toward 1B? That is, was he more toward 1B than 3B?

The runner establishes his own baseline, and since no play was being made on him, he can right the ship and head for third. From the point where he decided to go to third, his baseline is between there and 3rd base. If the defense tries to tag him, he cannot go more than 3 feet out of his newly established baseline to avoid a tag.

BRD cites, FED 8-4-2p, which states a runner is out if, after touching first, he abandons his attempt to run the bases. The umpire must judge whether a runner "heading for the dugout or his defensive position" is abandoning his efforts to run the bases. NCAA , same as FED, except runner is automatically charged with abandonment. OBR, same as FED.

yankeesfan,

JEA suggests that in your sitch, with the runner at (or approaching) 2B, he would not be called out for abandonment until he crossed the foul line in his return to the dugout. He would have the ability to "reassert his status as a runner" up until that point.

As SD Steve says, were he to do so, his "baseline" is a direct line from wherever he happens to be to his advance or return base, with a 3' tolerance either side, should the defense attempt to tag him out.

JM

P.S. And yes, I'm sure.

Agreed, being in the vicinity of the mound is hardly abandonment. He has to cross a foul line or move to his defensive position first, in my mind.

Aside: if he thought he was out at 2d, the BU must not have been very emphatic with his call. Since a 'safe' call here is the unexpected play, the BU needs to sell this strongly.

PWL, I originally cited the FED, NCAA and OBR rules pertaining to "abandonment". You seem to have conveniently ignored the part of the rule that pertains to "judgement" in your rush to skewer Steve.

By the way, Steve is right in this situation. I know that comforts you.

Bob P.

If the runner's team occupied the 1B dugout, and the runner, moving toward his dugout in the belief that he was out, in effect retreated toward 1B before running directly to 3B, I think he could be considered as having missed 2B.

I'm pretty sure the baseLINES are established before the game starts. :)

mcrowder,

I believe you are referring to the "foul lines", as in:

"...The foul lines and all other playing lines indicated in the diagrams by solid black lines shall be marked with wet, unslaked lime, chalk or other white material. ..."

And does anybody have any idea what "unslaked lime" is & how it would differ from "slaked lime"?

JM

I suppose its not slaked....:D

Bob(Mr. Obvious) P.

PWL,

I was refering to Steve being correct about the runner establishing his own baseline. Also, you emphatically state the runner was out, I mearly mentioned that an out is not automatic.

Bob P.

He's out in FED in my mind.

Also, about establishing baselines: with each throw by the defense, the runner establishes a new baseline (3 feet each way). So he doesn't have to keep running in a V shape, back to the pitchers mound, he can work his way back to the direct line in between (probably will be gradually on each throw).

Correct me if I'm wrong....

SLAKED LIME-This is the common name for Calcium Hydroxide: It is lime (crushed limestone) combined with water or moist air to create a paste or liquid (limewater or hydrated lime).

UNSLAKED LIME-This is the powdered, course product of crushing limestone.

Lime in many forms is caustic and can burn skin and fabric- thus the change to modern chalk.

Incidently, the use of unslaked lime has given us some of our most revered traditions including the kicking of dirt, etc. on umpires (lime will make very short work of wool pants), and catchers wiping out the back lines of the batter's boxes (they were afraid of pitches in the dirt and shuffling around the plate getting the lime into their eyes).

Anyway...that's what lime is!


Bainer

Bainer,

Thank you very much. I guess you can learn something new every day.

JM

"When he headed for the dugout" - abandonment should require judgement involving reasonable distance to the duguout, and no intent to advance. Is the pitching mound reasonable distance, probably not. Did the runner have no intent to advance, probably not, since he tried once he realized. If the ball went dead when it went over F3's head, I would rule R1 out if he had made no effort to advance prior to ball going dead. If the ball did not go dead then R1 may advance to 3b if he showed intent to correct his baserunning error, and was no farther to the dugout than the pitcher's mound.

An established baseline has everything to do with this play. You may choose to believe that Evans interpretation doesn't count for much, but you'll find the rest of us hold his assessments in very high regard. As others have said, it's a judgment as to whether or not the runner has abandoned all efforts to run the bases. Evans gives us a little insight on this with the following.


PLAY: Runner, believing he is called out on a tag at first or third base starts for the dugout and progresses a reasonable distance still indicating by his actions that he is out, shall be out for abandoning the bases.



I have to believe that the reason Steve mentioned the baseline criteria was to illustrate that by simply leaving the three foot basepath restriction the runner is not to be called out for that act alone. This only applies when he's attempting to avoid a tag. This is an often missapplied rule, as many inexperienced umpires will call a runner out for moving more than three feet out of a direct line between the bases when there isn't a tag attempt.

Evans further clarifies different criterion for determining when to call a runner out for abandonment depending on the last base they legally held.



7.08(a.2) - Common sense dictates that the only logical reason a player would abandon 1st base after overrunning it would be because he thought he had been declared out by the umpire. The player should not be penalized for an umpire's improper signaling or incorrect mechanic. Therefore, the runner should not be automatically called out if he temporarily leaves the extended basepath. A player who leaves the infield area abandoning the base paths between 1st base and 3rd base may be declared out once he leaves fair territory. If a play is being made on him, however, he is subject to the guidelines established in 7.08(a.1)...he must be advancing toward a base and cannot go more than three feet out of his direct line to avoid a tag. A runner who leaves 3rd base for any reason is not out until he enters a dugout when no play is being made on him. He shall be declared out for abandoning the base paths if a play is being made on him and (1) he is not making a bona fide effort to reach home plate or return to 3rd; or (2) he runs more than three feet out of his direct line to avoid a tag. A batter-runner who inexplicably fails to return directly to 1st base after overrunning it shall not be called out before entering the dugout. If he failed to touch the base, he is subject to an appeal play. He can be retired by the defensive team either tagging him or the missed base and making a proper appeal. In trying to get back to 1st base after missing it, the batter-runner must make a legitimate effort to proceed directly to the base. Any circuitous or evasive running which the umpire determines not to be an immediate attempt to reach 1st base shall be grounds for declaring the batter-runner out.



Tim.

Tim -

Nice, clarifying post, especially the word criterion. Nothing like good grammar.