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Thu May 18, 2006, 03:07pm
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as far as the German soccer player...whatever...that was maybe the least important piece of information in any of my post- its true the guy is a little league umpire- whether anyone believes that- who cares? ohh... and... MY LETTERS WERE ALSO RED I WIN!
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"Do not anticipate trouble, or worry about what may never happen. Keep in the sunlight. " -Benjamin Franklin 
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Thu May 18, 2006, 03:35pm
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One quick example:
The auto workers union single-handedly is to blame for the outsourcing of auto manufacturing to Mexico, and the loss of thousands of jobs. The pigheadedness and greed of that union is soley to blame for this happening. Jiggy, only in a union person's way of thinking (the minority thought in this country) is being a so-called "scab" a bad thing. To the rest of the world, it is called doing a job that others have held hostage for selfish reasons. Yes, it is selfish to want more money than originally agreed to in a contract or agreement. They should be getting paid more, but that is not the point, which those with the "union mentality" do not see. Striking or walking off the job is not the best way to approach the matter, and you can't blame people for taking the jobs that you refuse to do, no matter the reason why.
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Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25
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Thu May 18, 2006, 04:24pm
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I agree with that statement...mostly. Calling balls and strikes and outs and safes, I have found becomes easier the higher the level. No argument from me...I've said that on various threads on various boards numersous times. However, IMHO it is NOT easier to umpire the non-routine situations the higher the level. I find quite the opposite to be true. I've never had to shut down a beanball war on anything but the pro level. I've never had coaches/managers come out to argue on a call I clearly got correct because he just wanted to get tossed to fire up his team on anything but the pro level. (Where I could tell that was clearly what the coach was trying to do.) I've never had dirt kicked on me or home plate on anything but the pro level. I've never had a fight occur in a game on the amateur level. And while I have had "heated" arguments with head coaches on the amateur level, I have not had one approach the level of "heat" in the majority of my pro arguments. Simply put...I've been called things on the pro field that no amateur coach that I've worked with has come close to saying. Now, I know these happen on the amateur level...but I think, at least from my experience, that the number and severity of these non-routine situations is far less than in pro ball. I have found that most managers in pro ball viewed me as the "enemy" or a "necessary evil", and that no amount of hard work or correct calls could change that. I have found that hard work over the past few seasons on the amateur level has actually gained the respect of coaches and I'm not viewed as the "enemy"...which reduces the number and severity of non-routine situations. I'm not making a comment about the strike or replacements or anything of that nature. God knows I've posted my views on other threads. I'm just suggesting, based on MY experience (MiLB, NCAA (I & II), HS, Legion, AAU), that non-routine situations are much more difficult to handle the higher the level. Others may disagree...and that's fine.
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Thu May 18, 2006, 04:38pm
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lawump,
Out here in San Diego, the intensity level at the Varsity HS level is very high. This area is heavily laden in talent, and there are scouts at most of the big games. The coaches here will kick the occasional dirt on the shoes, will try to get tossed to fire up their team, and we have had quite a few historical beanballs and bench clearing brawls, including one in the 1989 CIF Finals. It was started by the plate umpire not calling (or ejecting for) malicious contact when a runner did a Pete Rose number on the catcher. The next inning or so, the other team returned the favor by knocking the crap out of the catcher, and a bench clearing brawl resulted in I believe 6 or 7 ejections. My point is that I personally have been nose to nose with some very good, highly experience coaches, and have yet to lose an argument. I realize that I am never going to advance to the pro ball level, but I think I could handle any manager, even Bobby Cox. It is too late for me to ever work these higher levels, but I would love to go back in time if I could and give it a shot. In the meantime, I have my regrets to hold on to. I don't want to re-hash that trip down Memory Lane.
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Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25
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Thu May 18, 2006, 06:53pm
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There is a reason we don't start amateurs at the D-1 level and let them work their way "up" to little league. There is a reason pros don't start at the MLB championship level and work their way up to short season A. And that reason is that that so called axiom is bullsh!t. Our association was so short of umpire this year the we had first year rookies assigned to varsity ball. Their record was disasterous. AD after AD called to beg us not to re-assign rookie and one and two year umpires to varsity again. Upper level games may be easier for upper level umpires to work, but they are not easier games for everyone to work.
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GB
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Thu May 18, 2006, 09:56pm
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Thank you, Garth!
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A good, wise friend of mine said recently that there is not a lot of difference in strikes/balls safes/outs and mechanics and rules knowledge between the top high school umpire and the D1 crew chief. The difference is in "little things" and in how the D1 ump handles situations. That differece makes all the difference in the world to college skippers. Take this sitch- you are working a 13 year old BR game- around here, the first level of 90' bases. Those poor kids can't find the strike zone with a flashlight from two feet away- let alone 90. The defense is not so good and the catcher is practiced in the art of ole. In short, the baseball sucks, as far as baseball goes. Yes, it's hard to umpire, mecahnically. Yes, you will get creative with finding strikes where there aren't any to be found. On the other hand, there aren't a whole lot of expectations of you as an umpire, either. And I think the idea that "better baseball is easier to umpire" simplifies a complex idea too much. If you put a rookie umpire behind the plate while Greg Maddux is on the mound, one of two things is going to happen: (1) rookie is going to call none of Maddux' legitimate "paint-the-black" pitches strikes or (2) rookie is going to let Maddux expand the zone by six inches. Either way, the rookie is going to find himself in a world of crap in very short order. Experienced umpires work big games. I think that's one convention that is as it should be. Strikes and outs!
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Thu May 18, 2006, 10:20pm
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If that hypothetical banker walks away from his job and the bank manager asks me to take it, the banker and his cling-ons have no right to complain. The laws of supply and demand are clearly illustrated on ball fields across America and in your analogy. While we have scattered reports of inept or controversial officiating among the replacement ranks, it is no different than any other sport - professional or amateur. How many phantom calls do we see in pro basketball? The WBC was a cluster f*&^% of bad calls and Davidson is heir apparent to the MLB. Even the WUA gurus have bad games; didn't we just see a beanball war with West on the dish? I guess he needs a six year AAA guy to show him how it is supposed to be done. Give me a break - most D1 guys and some high school umpires have been at it for longer than almost all of the AMLU guys. Sure, the calls are quicker and more demanding...so what? At every level the pressure builds from regular season to post season. Coaches still whine about not getting the calls and how they deserve better umpires. Get over it...even the best AAA guy got booed! I didn't see that picture and story on the AMLU site. If I see another one of you post an article about a pitcher complaining about consistent strike zones I think I'll cry. What kind of an umpire listens to a player argue about his zone? It's funny, the umpires who trot those tales out now will toss a guy for questioning his consistency in a game. Those cling-ons who are cheering for a losing cause think there is merit in the tales of umpire ineptitude - that's really funny. Rats are rats and players get fooled by plays all of the time. I don't give much creedence to them - especially when they are 8-22. By the way, I wouldn't brag about using a colored font to retort. I'm flattered that you chose the same method that I have long employed, but you really should use a different color - I suggest yellow!
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"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz Last edited by WhatWuzThatBlue; Thu May 18, 2006 at 10:25pm.
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Thu May 18, 2006, 11:40pm
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Willing umpires is indeed the appropriate terminology...not qualified.
This whole thread is pathetic. Not because PDX tries to justify why is his working as a replacement, but rather because he feels the need to do it on the bulletin board. As for the reasoning, this will never give you an indication of whether you can make it in pro ball. You are not working under the pressures of supervisors who will release you if you don't have the skills. You do not travel and work 140 of 148 days. And lastly, managers and players are hesitant to truly argue because the fines and suspensions are much greater than years past. If you want to justify what you are doing, why do it here? From a psycological standpoint, you obviously know that no one respects what you are doing. You are a sucker not only for paying the $50 to read Tim's entire column, but also because you have fallen for MiLB's ploy that the job you are doing is the same as the AMLU guys. I am not angry at your decision. but let me answer your question for you. You would not have made it in pro ball. As soon as the AMLU guys get a deal to come back to work, which is going to happen eventually, you will see just how much Mr. Mobley respects your abilities. He will never call you, just as was the case before the strike, until of course there is another stike in the minor leagues where he knows he could find "willing" umpires to work. WWTB...I mean Jeff...how many times must it be said. Andy pissed you off, I get that. But these guys did not turn down these assignments. They are not unwilling to work. They are looking to keep their wages consistent with the increased cost of living in the US. Everytime you write that, I am reminded why you are so bitter with the AMLU. I have sparred you the embarrasment of identifying you on this forum. Maybe it is out of a sense of old school loyalty. But stop being pissed at Andy for the way things worked out between you two and look at what they are asking for. They are not being greedy. What they are asking for is an insult in any other industry. The difference is that they have so many other people that do their job as a hobby at the amateur levels that they are constantly dealing with egocentric personalities that think they are better despite being at a lower level of play. Seriously, this argument is old. I may be new to the board, but I am not new to the game. The replacements are doing what they want to do and justify it. The AMLU guys are doing what they need to do to maintain their poverty lifestyle. This is not an argument, this is a fact. Take it for what it is worth, I am a former AAA umpire who knows that I can works in the PCL today. But I also know what it is like to raise a family on that wage. Stop trying to relate living at home and working 2-3 games a week to what the AMLU guys do. It is not even the same sport in comparison. And please do not quote me in a later post Jeff. If you want to refute my points go ahead. But I just hate the thought of my internet identity being in the same column of you or PDX where you are trying to diminish the AMLU profession while simultaneously attempting to justfy and promote the replacement's decisions. Thank you in advance. BA
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Fri May 19, 2006, 01:54am
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[QUOTE=lorenzeugene]
You, dpierr, ask that I be fair to the "replacements" by not revealing a game report that pokes at the blunders of the pdx crew. But you ask in a way that pleads, "give em a chance to play out their dream shot." This makes me churn inside as I think of the point of view of the guys striking. They are the ones that had the guts to put their jobs on the line, and for what? Anything unreasonable? I diden't mean it like you make it sound but in your point of view I aggree with you.
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Fri May 19, 2006, 04:13am
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Willing umpires is indeed the appropriate terminology...not qualified.
This whole thread is pathetic. Not because PDX tries to justify why is his working as a replacement, but rather because he feels the need to do it on the bulletin board. There are many umpires who are working as replacements. You paint with a mighty broad brush. I can think of at least a dozen that were formerly MiLB umpires. A handful have time in the Show. I would say that they are infinitely qualified. I am also familiar with about the same number who carry regular D1 schedules and have done so for many years. Two of them work in the SEC and another in the Pac 10. If you work those conferences, you are familiar with any pressure that you will see as an MiLB umpire. The mistakes made in those contests not only cost you schedules but may blackball you in an entire area. I have attended a couple MiLB contests since the strike. I watched a crew that had only High School experience do a terrific job on an A field. Hell, the guys playing were only a few years removed from their Senior years themselves. For such a pathetic board, the amateurs that play here have certainly found that the behavior of the AMLU professionals is reprehensible. PDX may find the need to justify himself to his peers, but how do Andy and the gang justify the Scab board at the AMLU site? For the record, getting access to that board is pretty easy if you know someone who lends you a password. Believe me, more than a few guys are upset at the way things are falling apart. They ARE speaking their minds and telling a story much different than the unified front that is being ballyhooed. They are passing along private messages and already discussing options. It can't last much longer...
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"You can tell whether a man is clever by his answers. You can tell whether a man is wise by his questions. ~Naguib Mahfouz Last edited by WhatWuzThatBlue; Fri May 19, 2006 at 04:15am.
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Fri May 19, 2006, 07:00am
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I know a lot of our area coaches live in fear of that fine. $100 means a lot to a guy who is scraping by as a HS PE teacher with a little additional stipend for coaching. Does it eliminate all coaches' ejections? No. Does it eliminate a lot? Yes. Does it eliminate a lot of the "nastiness" in the arguments that do occur? Yes. The intensity level in our games is very high too. IMHO, MLB could do the same thing if they wanted to. Instead of setting some automatic fine amount for an ejection, however, they could institute a mandatory minimum suspension. Tell a MLB player/manager he will be fined a certain amount for an EJ and he won't care. Tell him he's going to sit out a 3-game series or some certain amount of time for an EJ and he'll care.
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Fri May 19, 2006, 09:44am
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In your world PDX can't personalize an industry issue on the board, but you can pat yourself on the back for your so-called loyalty and personal issues with WWTB. If WWTB wanted his identity known I'm sure he would publish it. You are a scumbag for the veiled threat of doing so (I don't even know if WWTB cares but since you think he does in your mind it's a threat) Your unscrupolous attacks here are no different than the AMLU approach of intimidation and verbal attacks on the replacements. The AMLU needs to bring some value added concepts to the table. The simplistic approach of declaring the replacements as terrible isn't very professional or effective.
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Fri May 19, 2006, 10:07am
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There is a big difference between a first year ump doing competitive varsity games and a seasoned varsity ump doing pro ball. From my perspective going from one level to the next is not much more than a mindset. Calls are calls, arguments are arguments, it's a simple matter of knowing what you will tolerate going in, as well as guarding against intimidation. A first year ump has not had the experience of living thru blowing a call, getting blasted for it and the psychological impact it can have on you. He has not been mentally toughened up if you will. A successful varsity ump has the benefit of going thru that learning curve and surviving it. IMO it has little to do with balls and strikes and everything to do with mental toughness. Once you have your first good run in with a pro rat and you survive, you realize it's just another baseball game, I'm the boss and life is good, PLAY BALL! To those who have had the experience am I oversimplifying it?
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Fri May 19, 2006, 12:31pm
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NIUmp50...I wouldn't say you are oversimplifying it. I would just say that A ball is not the same as AA or AAA. The biggest difference between pro and amateur baseball is that the pro guys are paid for playing. They have egos as well. One argument cannot be compared to another. Every time a manager came out to argue it could have ended in an ejection or a simple conversation. The point is, you can't say that you made it through a few games and you can handle it.
To put it a different way, my third year in the game I had 11 ejections. That was in Advanced A. My first year in AA I had 2 ejections. My second year in AA, now my fifth year in the game, I had 9 ejections. The point is, every day is a new day. The real truth behind this game is that even though you have 20 years experience you still see something new every day. When it comes to the replacements (I have never called them scabs) I am saying that they do not receive any respect from the players and managers other than a thank you for working while the AMLU guys are on strike. They know you didn't earn that opportunity, rather you took advantage of it. Therefore, when they have a close play at the plate, they are already facing an uphill battle in trying to defend their ruling. So MiLB places an order down through the leagues resulting in greater fines and bigger suspensions to prevent the arguments from interupting the product to the fans. I am not being argumentative on this board, I am only giving you first hand knowledge of the way this thing works. WWTB is right, there are a handfull of former MLB and MiLB guys working. But each night you have approximately 150 umpires working across the United States, the vast majority is what I am talking about. I have worked D1 and it is close to the level of A ball. But even your best D1 team would get blown away by a AA team. On your best D1 teams, Arizona State or USC, there are maybe a couple to a few kids that will ever make it to AA. And by the time they get there, they have their taste of the money and can see whether or not they realistically can make it to the show. This is the ego I am talking about. When they were in college they didn't have the same mentality. Balls and strikes, safes and outs...it is the same as A ball. But AA and AAA are different all together. And I am not a hypocrite for not revealing WWTB's identity. I have never threatened him, I only was trying to catch his attention so that he knew I wasn't just another guy who was trying to cut him down. He makes some good points, and I relate that to the fact that he and I were once on the same track. But our lives took us to where we are today. What good will come in revealing his identity? If he wants you to know he will tell you. But I never threatened him in any way. I know the story of what happened with him and the AMLU. I don't argue it, I am also smart enough to kow there are two sides to every story. Here is a news flash, he is not working games, so maybe he has a little old school loyalty in him as well. You just can't judge a man until you walk in his shoes. If you walk in my shoes, you would have had to go to umpire school, travel for the better of ten years, and then retire. I have earned my right to comment on this situation because I know the difference of being on the road and working games as opposed to working 2-3 games a week and going home at night. I know this and so does WWTB. As for the scab photo thing, I saw it too. I disagreed with it then and I disagree with it now. But I didn't make those decisions, the AMLU people did. From what I hear, they didn't vote on making it public. Someone decided to do it. It backfired, so they took it down. I too still have a few friends that I can get access through, but I could care a less. Those pictures may have been wrong to post, but the message was loud and clear that the guys working these games do not look the part. And in a game of perception, I don't care who you are, the majority of those guys are unqualified just by looking at them. As I said, this is just my opinion from first hand experience. I do not agree with the decision to work as a replacement. But I know it is going to happen. I just disagree with people trying to diminish the AMLU guys for trying to remain at a poverty level of income. I am guilty of it as well when it comes to watching a MLB game and thinking "I can do that." But the problem is, after my experiences in the game, I know that I can get through 10-15 games without incident. Everyone knows I am new and I am not a full time MLB guy. But after while things change. There is more that would be expected of me. Eventually, it would catch up to me and I will be exposed as being less than qualified to be a MLB umpire. This is the same for a replacement in the minor leagues. I put the time in and got my answer. My last year in the game it was dificult to make ends meet. That was in the late 90's. Here we are in 2006, I can't imagine how the guys are doing it making what I made then. That is all. I am not looking to fight on this board. I don't call names and I don't take cheap shots. What I am writing is not biased, it is truthful. I can see that maybe through all the ballyhoo people have become more defensive rather than debative. Take it for what it is worth, an honest first hand opinion. BA
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Fri May 19, 2006, 01:22pm
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I really don't think that anyone thinks that the AMLU guys don't deserve a better deal, and I haven't seen a lot of bashing b/c they are trying to better their situation. I also worked the 150+ schedule and I know that it is much different than the 2-3 games a week in a couple of local parks, but where I think our thoughts differ is that the 2-3 games a week is better for the AMLU guys than the current contract. You said yourself that you retired after 10+ years and are happy with where you are at now in life, but for future MiLB umpires why can't they have those 10+ years be in a system that affords them the opputunity to live at home and earn a retirement in a normal job and work on their game until it is time for them to show what they know. If that were around when you, Windy, Jiggy, lawump and me where in we wouldn't have thrown away 35-45 years towards retirement combined. The former system had its +'s but a new system will aswell. The best part is the every current AMLU memeber can be apart of a new system and have a leg up in it.
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