Would you Eject??
 

Had a strange sort of incident on the weekend, not sure when my partner should have ejected, and sort of if??

Partners strike zone not the best but mostly consistent. Early in count middle of the game, low pitch, probably too low but Called a strike. Partner definatly had a low zone. The 3rd base coach (HEAD COACH) says loud enough for me to hear in A, "That is not a strike!!!, come on!!" partner glares but nothing more, Coach continues to ramble but not much said.

The on what turns out to be the last batter of the game a similar but Better pitch is also called a strike to start the batter. Coach says the same thing again loud, and my partner tosses him for arguing Balls and Strikes.

My question is when or would you have tossed him. Personally my thought was after the first pitch, however, my partner did tell me he felt he missed that one, so he didn't eject. I agree with his stance on that point. My partner also felt the other pitch was one he had called all game. Would this change your decision.

Personally I don't like him using the word Strike, I think there are so many ways for him to express his displeasure that would not have been such an obvious arguing Balls and Strikes.

I don't think I would have ejected at all. I believe the rule book says that a coach can be ejected if he leaves his position to argue balls and strikes. I think a warning is required here, especially if it's late in the game.

i wouldnt have an ejection here either. he did it 99% of the game and didnt appear to warrant an ejection then, so why with 2 minutes left to go would you toss him?

I think I'd have left it alone too.

No ejection here either. If the coach had been ragging on my zone repeatedly, he would be warned to "stay off my strike zone." Then, if he did not heed the warning, he would be ejected at that time. Just disagreeing with a couple of pitches from the coaches box does not warrant an ejection.

When to draw a hard line??
 

:confused: Hello,

I have a problem that is similar but on a greater level. I am a volunteer umpire with only 6 seasons worth of experience. I currently find myself in a Little League (FED rules) filled with coaches that feel that it is one of the "rights" of coaching to comment on any balls and strikes calls. I have pointed out that In their Little League rule books they will find rule 4.06(2) that prohibits them from using any language that makes reference to or reflects on umpires..players..other coaches. When I informed the local boards vice president of Softball (who also is a coach that advocates the right of coaches to openly question the balls and strikes), that violating this rule will be enforced with those penalties as directed by the official rule book. He then in formed me that I was no longer welcome to volunteer as an umpire.

I will tell you that this league suffers from a lack of volunteer umpires. No big surprise huh? Therefore most of the home games around here (district 15, Schoolcraft MI.) are umpired by a parent who has been drafted off the grass before the game! It will be my goal to bring organization and support structures into place that will foster a recruiting program for umpires, educational clinics, and above all, a Little League home environment that will nurture new umpires as they grow and learn and possible make mistakes.

This season I have only Dads at my training disposal and they have assured me that they have no interest in being embarrassed throughout a game by the coaches running commentary. I have instructed them that the rules support a warning then an ejection for commenting on their balls and strikes calls. It isn't going win them popularity contests but the coaches will soon learn of the "rights" the do and don't have. I know that I am drawing a hard line, but when faced with a "Wild West" league whose board allows the coaches to interpret that rules as they wish, is there any other way deal with this.

I apologize for the length of my post. I don't wish to be like the other umpires in this area who came before me and just threw up there hands and walked away. Any guidance from you seasoned umpires out there would be greatly appreciated.

Thank You in advance
Mike Devenney

To throw out or not to throw out????
 

I had a similar situtation happen the first game of Little Leauge this year. I had the assistant Manager yell from the dugout to his pitcher that, "his pitch was perfect, the umpire is cutting the plate in half on you." I called time and went to the dugout and the manager met me half way and I told him that is the last word about balls and strikes I am going to tolerate from his side.

If any of the managers (parents) would of said another word about balls and strikes I would of tossed them without hesitation.

Mike,

First, Little League rules are based on OBR rules, not FED rules, which govern most High School ball.

Secondly, unless they are using foul language when jumping on your strikezone, then they haven't violated Rule 4.06(a)(2), which is intended for use when the manager, player, substitute, coach, trainer or batboy uses foul language and aims it personally at anyone at the ballpark.

The rule you want is Rule 9.02(a) which states that any judgment call you make shall not be objected to. If they get on your strike zone, get it shut down right away by warning the offending party to stay off your strike zone. Any further comments about judgment calls, you eject the offender from the game.

As far as not getting cooperation from the league vice-president, where is the president? It is his responsibility to instruct the coaches as to the absolute power of the umpire, and that coaches do not have the right to ride roughshod over the umpires. They need to no that they will be ejected from games for persistent arguing, and that it will include a one-game suspension as well.

There's a clear recourse. Quit volunteering - your park is making it crystal that they will not support you on this, they will back the coaches' behavior.

Your 'dads from the stands' seem to have the correct perspective on this.

Seems pretty easy to me: You have 6 years experience, tell the LL guys "See ya later!" Find out who runs your HS chapter, sign up, pay some dues and start moving up the food chain.

BTW--there are guys in AA with less than 6 years of experience:D

Each umpire has his own level of crap that they will take. Different umpires have different things that hate more than others.

As for me I hate it when a coach complains and starts waving his arms and getting overly animated. If he makes a comment I usually just let it slide off but if he keeps making comments then he'll have a problem.

I have ejected only 1 coach in 100+ games this season and it happened this past Saturday in a Pony League Mustang Div (10yo) game. It was the first little guy ball game that I have worked this season (helping a friend). It was interesting!

The problem is, if you don't immediately stop the chirping about your strike zone, then you pretty much tell both teams that they can do it for the whole game. It is very tough to regain control once you lose it.

I don't mind a civil discussion about almost any subject on the field. But I insist that the discussion be one on one, and be done respectfully and quietly. I don't tolerate yelling from dugouts or coaching boxes. I cover this in my pre-game with the head coach's.

Bob P.

Different blues, different leagues, different cultures
 

I agree with Just, who talked about each umpire having his own level of crap he will put up with. I also factor in the league, the level of ball and, honestly, the coach. If I have a coach I know to be a whiner, I am much quicker on the trigger for a warning (no EJs in 5 years). On the other hand, if it's a coach who rarely squawks, if he hollers, I am more likely to listen and give him some slack.

Grumbling about one or two pitches, over the course of a game, is not grounds for an ejection in any league I work (13 year-old Babe Ruth to MSBL and college scrimmages).

"Arguing" in my mind is a comment about my zone over the course of the game or any one yell about any one pitch. When the coach has crossed my line, I say something to the effect of "Balls and strikes, Coach. This is your warning." After that, if he barks, he knows he has done so at his peril. This applies to any judgment call.

To the umpire who got uninvited for standing up for yourself: good riddance to that league for you. A strong association can take care of that business. Around here, we are short umpires, so we have some more of the power on our side in this equation. Don't go crazy and forget that the game is not about you (or the coaches and parents, for that matter)- it's about the kids. But if all umpires draw a line and tell the leagues this is your limit, the league will either adapt or find themselves without blues.

Strikes and outs!

...
 

UMPIRES DO NOT GET PAID TO TAKE CRAP- ANY CRAP- ANY AMOUNT- PERIOD!

having said that...(and before everyone goes ape over that statement all by itself)

We as umpires have more than one tool in our chest. Especially as it pertains to balls and strikes from the dugouts or coaches boxes. My first reaction to his first outburst might be just to note who said it but not even acknowledge it (ignore). I took action, just not one everyone can see. If he keeps going (which they almost always will), i will acknowledge the second one (i.e. looking in his direction- if he says something then i may give a short response something like "that's a good pitch, a strike all day today"). Then I go back to work (I'm giving him every opportunity to shut up). If he pops of again, that's the last one: "hey!, that's enough. we're not gonna talk about pitches!" mask off and giving him the stop sign. Then it's up to him, next comment at all about pitches or my zone he just dumped himself. Obviously there may be instances when his actions or comments accelerate this process, that is the judgment we get paid the big bucks for. Balls strikes should be a fairly easy one to deal with in most cases without constricting him from talking at all and without me having to take any crap off of him without action. One HUGE thing to understand with ejections is (IMHO) that we have other tools in our chest, and we shouldn't be ejecting anyone because he "pissed me off" or "i hate it when they do _____" There are reasons to get run and then there are things that we don't like but aren't a reason to get run. It is part of our job not to make any decision on the field out of emotion or personal feelings one way or the other. An ejection should not be the result of being "fed up". If you are fed up, why didn't you handle it before you got "fed up"? Food for Thought.

Great responses guys!

I think in part I agree, it was simply the verbage he used that blew me away. "That IS NOT a STIRKE!" Not your regular , ooooh or Ahhhh Or Come on. or that was low, or anything. It was the use of the word Strike that shocked me. I agree a firmer warning should have been made the first time, but I'm 99% sure this coach understood the stare.

Also this coach is one of those Arrogant kind. He enjoyed strooling out to talk to pitcher's with out calling for time, and then strooling back. In canada this is a huge rarity. He then came out to argue a call (mine) and was trying to get time and almost walked on fair territory before the play was finished. ( side note, he has to interfere in some way for any real penalty to be inforced were he oin the field of play, correct?) Note the argue was calm and civil. but he was annoying in many ways. So I think that added to the quick toss but I don't know. I know his assistant commented to me that he hates "when {the coach} does this Crap".

Oh well thanks for the advice it is stored away for next time.

Carp errr crap
 

I think yours is a valid philosophy, Jiggy, but I disagree with some points. If I eject somebody, the odds are very, very good that I am angry with that person, and no matter how I would like to try, emotions are going to be part of that experience. The key is to act objectively and rationally despite or while feeling keyed up. Can I articulate why I dumped this guy? Can I write a report that is accurate and detailed that looks like a good reason to EJ after I've calmed down?

That's why I say, usually, one bark on one pitch, no problem, and I am not going to have rabbit ears about it. However, if it's one bark that goes something like, "You suck! That pitch was low! You're never working here again!" well, then, he goes home early- but more for personalizing the argument than for arguing balls and strikes.

Taking crap is not part of the job description, but any umpire who says he doesn't take any is fooling himself. My basic stance is to try to keep people in the game. So far, so good (for a while, anyway).

Strikes and outs!

There's no interference penalty unless he actually interferes, but he won't be coming out anywhere near the foul line again without having time granted. This includes trips to the mound and especially times when he wants to argue.


Tim.

3apples what league was this in most of the coaches I have in Ontario walk out as slow as posible to their pitcher barely asking for time as they cross the baseline.

Also if the comment wasn't said I a manner that was clearly meant to bring a reaction I probably wouldn't have said a thing about it. Often I will hear a similar comment as a coach turns away from the plate ie: 3rd base coach saying it while turning away towards left field. That is part of a rat being a rat, and often the only thing a ejection will do in that situation is to escalate things to a level you don't want to go. I have seen many umpires very good ones at that bait a coach into an ejection. Also I have seen many good coaches bait good umpires into a weak ejection to fire up a team.

During the time leading up to his first warning and the time you toss him there must have been some "crap" taken? Sounds like on the first outburst (I call it crap) you just note who said something (but ignore it). Then if it happens again you look his way and engage him in a verbal exchange (I can see where that might have the opposite effect). Then when he says something again (for the 3rd time) you take off your mask and give him the hand saying "hey!, that's enough. we're not gonna talk about pitches!" Then IF (when) he gives you more crap (for the fourth time) you finally run him. That's a lot more crap than I will take. :)

If a coach makes a comment after a pitch I'll give him some leadway, depending on what he says, but after a very short time I'll usually say (first warning) "I heard you coach, that's enough". This is with mask in hand and probably his only warning. Any more comments from the coach then it's to show me up and he is asking me (daring me) to take more actions against him.

We just don't argue balls/strikes....never ever! You'll sometimes hear comments on a pitch but when they begin to make a scene they are opening their own exit door.

Coaches learn which umpires they can't push too hard, word spreads. Every game I work the coach knows what to expect from me if pushed. I haven't ejected a single coach (HS or higher in my 100+ games this season). I did get a youth coach Saturday though....but not until he asked me to toss him:D

Well it was that pseudo PBLO league u16, and that is part of the issue, this is my first year doing these guys. Now I have done some PBLO u18's, but never had a coach to this level of shear arrogance. But still, at least they look towards you and raise a hand, this guy just strolled. But It was never a real issue for me until the Argue, and he screamed time 3-4 times while a base runner was going to third, D had no chance on him, but it was his base runner. I normally do OBA where I have only coaches out on day passes and they call time for everything, equally as annoying. Also this coach said it while stomping down the line 2-3 steps looking at and pointing at the umpire. It was said like an order, not a flaberghasted statement. I'm not sure what I would have done, but neither were good strike in my book, that allows for some bickering in itself.

But I had my first ejection of the season today. Top of first player gets caught ducking from a nice curve, possibly a titch high, but finished beautiful, and the dude bailed enough - strike two, he then grounds out to end the inning. He starts complaining about the call as he turns to the dugout, My partner tells him to shut it and get to the dugout. (to get his gear and come out). Well he comes out and HE is the PITCHER. unreal, any way 4 or fifth batter he faces he throws a high fast ball outside corner but up, I call a ball, Partner in B, he turns around and complains, Partner calls time, and loudly warns him to stop complaining on Balls and Strikes. two innings later he throws a similar pitch at a batter who is short, Crosses at Her ( yes her) chin. I call a ball. He takes two steps towards me and Asks Where Did That one Miss?, rather sarcastic, I tell him it missed near the bench right where he is going and Coach get me a new player. He then says I was asking politely? LOL What can you do.

A word to the wise there Bluelawyer.......

The last time someone on this site said "It's for the kids" all hell broke loose.

Apples, the coach would stroll to the mound without requesting "time"? How many times did he do that? That's a rarity everywhere, not just in Canada. The first time he tried that on me I would have asked him, "Hey Coach, where are you going?"

It sounds to me that you guys have let this coach get away with a lot of shennanigans in the past.

Bob P.

And another bad thing about that RPatrino is not just how the coach acts around this crew but how he might act the next game. I had a 16 year old game last season where I was "warned" by another ump that one coach liked to see what he could get away with. On an easy out-stealing call at third (I'm BU) I turn around and see this coach halfway to the pitcher's mound. I informed him: (1) get off the field, and (2) if your make any sound you're gone.
Mr. Coach swallowed whatever he thought he was going to say and retreated. But for him to think he could walk out on the field like that suggests he had been allowed to.
I don't mind cleaning up my own messes. I don't like having to clean someone else's.

True,

Now it was my first time with this coach and with this league, You all are right, I should have stopped it, But I didn't stupid mistake, obviously in regard to him I'm not alone in making. :cool: Oh well live and learn right!

Good point. We sometimes loose focus and forget that when we allow a bunch of B.S, someone else will have to clean it up later. I get tired of hearing "the last umpire we had..........."


Tim.

I heard that so much lately that I addressed the problem at our last meeting. These umpires had been allowing lead-off hitters to stand near the plate timing the pitchers' warm-up throws. I kept having to tell them every half inning that this practice is not allowed at any level of baseball. The coaches come back with, "none of the other umpires........" or "we let them do this." Well, the other umpires are wrong, and I'm not having it on my ballfield.

In pro ball, the batter would get one planted in his ear if he stood there timing the pitcher and bothering his warm-ups. I explain this, and that it is not done in the big leagues, so why do they think they can do it. I tell them that in pro ball they walk from the on-deck circle to the batter's box after the catcher sends it down to second base. That is when they are introduced. And as I explain to the coaches, since this is a youth league, we can't advocate throwing at the kid's head, so we are just not going to time the pitchers. They can do all the timing they want to over by their dugout.

Sorry for the rant, but I've had it up to my head with it.

If you do things only because everyone else is doing something, you will lose in the end. Every umpire is different and every situation is different. There are no one size fits all solutions. What works with one umpire will not necessarily work with another umpire.

Most umpires are going to out last most coaches and definitely will outlast the players. I have told coaches many times, "I do not care what another umpire has done in the past.....this is what we are doing today" Then you tell them what the rules say and why the rule is there. Then you can say something like, "What other rules do you want me to turn my back on." Usually it does not get that far, but you get the point.

Enforce the rules as close to the accepted philosophies as you can. You are not going to make everyone happy.

Peace