Rising fastball

[gsf23]

My cousin could throw a mean rise-ball. It started out a little below the knees and was about shoulder height when it got to the plate.

Of course this was whiffle-ball.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by gsf23

My cousin could throw a mean rise-ball. It started out a little below the knees and was about shoulder height when it got to the plate.

Of course this was whiffle-ball.

“The good rising fastball is the best pitch in baseball.”
Tom Seaver

Ted Breitenstein, a .500 pitcher for the Cardinals and Reds through the 1890s, threw a rising fastball. Nig Cuppy, a minor star with the Cleveland Spiders, threw what he called a "jump ball"-a rising fastball.
excerpt from "The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers"

In the Dead Ball Era (1903-1919), a "hopping" fast ball was prized, because it led to strikeouts, pop ups, and fly balls, which were generally not dangerous in that era. In the lively ball era (beginning in 1920), the "sinking" fast ball was more prized, because it kept the ball in the infield, and kept down the number of home runs. excerpt from "The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers"

However, while some pitchers could make a ball hop and some people could make a ball "sink," there is no evidence of any major-league pitcher, before 1950, doing both, or switching between one and the other (Satchel Paige threw two distinct fastballs in the 1930s, when he pitched in the Negro Leagues.excerpt from "The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers"

"My fastball had a natural sink to it," they would say, or "My fastball had a pretty good hop to it," or "I had pretty good speed, but my fastball was straight, so I had to keep it away from the middle of the plate."
excerpt from "The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers"

Nick Cuppy expressed this idea succinctly in 1908, in a book called How to Pitch (John Foster). "That there is such a thing as a jump ball I believe is universally conceded," said Cuppy, "but like other pitchers I am in the dark as to its cause. I am positive that it exists, for I have been able to get it myself." Forty years later, there is little evidence of much better understanding.excerpt from "The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers"

Fergie Jenkins emerged as a star in 1967, throwing a rising fastball to right-handersexcerpt from "The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers"

My thinking was just to go up there and be aggressive, to swing at strikes," Lankford said. "The first pitch was away. But the second was a strike and I was able to drive it out of the ballpark. He has that rising fastball.
CNNSI.com Sept. 2 2001

Facing Johnson's the best challenge that you're going to have in this league. The scary thing about him right now is that he's becoming a better pitcher," said Chicago second baseman Eric Young. "Now he's mixing in a two-seamer with his rising fastball, so you can't even sit on any particular type of fastball. Just adding that one pitch sometimes makes him unhittable."
CNNSI April 30, 2000

I have 2 things to say:

1. If professional batters, pitchers and catchers from different eras are saying the ball is rising I tend to believe it.
As umpires we are always chastising fans, players and coaches for arguing calls from the stands and dugout. Our #1 response either to them or between ourselsves is generally 'how can they know better than us, we had the best angle and vantage point'.
Well, who has the better vantage point on a fastball than a pitcher, catcher and batter? Let's stay consistent with our arguments.

2. One of the most consistent arguments I've heard against the apparent rising fastball is that it doesn't drop as much as a slower fastball therefore giving the illusion of rising.

This explanation comes from an article by Lee Bowman,
Scripps Howard News Service
Terry Bahill, a professor of systems and industrial engineering at the University of Arizona, divides the batting process into thirds --sensory gathering, computing and swinging -- and agrees with Nathan that hitters use mental models of pitching.
He explains that pitchers keep earned-run averages low by trying to confuse those mental models, and uses the myth of the "jumping" or rising fastball to illustrate.
A pitcher will throw several 90-mph fastballs, and the batter develops a mental model and reaction to this speed. Then, the pitcher slips in a 95-mph toss, which looks the same to the batter at the sensory-gathering stage, and he swings for the same spot. But because the ball is actually moving faster, it doesn't drop quite as much as the earlier pitches.

If this were true then why, when a pitcher is consistently throwing 80mph fastballs and then muscles up one at 85mph doesn't it look like a riser?
In fact it should "jump" even higher since the % of increase in speed is even greater than one going from 90 to 95mph.
I've never heard anyone accuse an 85mph fastball of rising.
The logic doesn't work.

Besides the virulent and malicious posts that are forthcoming because I do not subscribe to the pack mentality I really want to hear from someone that can show the flaw in my logic. The illusion theory isn't working for me.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Fastpitch softball pitchers throw balls that rise as they approach the plate, as the spin on these pitches is opposite that of an overhand release, as well as the launch angle and trajectory. That is why they call the pitch a "riser."

[gotblue?]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Fastpitch softball pitchers throw balls that rise as they approach the plate, as the spin on these pitches is opposite that of an overhand release, as well as the launch angle and trajectory. That is why they call the pitch a "riser."

Steve, I believe that the spin on a "riser" in softball is in the same direction as, and not the opposite of, that of a fastball thrown with an overhand motion.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by gotblue?

Steve, I believe that the spin on a "riser" in softball is in the same direction as, and not the opposite of, that of a fastball thrown with an overhand motion.

Okay, I'll give you that one, but the launch angle and trajetory are quite different, unless you have a Kent Tekulve type pitcher.

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Okay, I'll give you that one, but the launch angle and trajetory are quite different, unless you have a Kent Tekulve type pitcher.

Originally Posted by gotblue?

Steve, I believe that the spin on a "riser" in softball is in the same direction as, and not the opposite of, that of a fastball thrown with an overhand motion.

Not being a softball person, I'd really be interested in how you throw a softball underhand, with any velocity, and get backspin on it, as with an overhand thrown fastball. If you did, it would work against making the ball rise, but since the ball is being thrown in a upward direction from the start, the spin is overcome by inertia. And a rising Softball is not the same thing as a rising Fastball, which is thrown downward, and then rises.

[NFump]

Originally Posted by nickrego

Not being a softball person, I'd really be interested in how you throw a softball underhand, with any velocity, and get backspin on it, as with an overhand thrown fastball. If you did, it would work against making the ball rise, but since the ball is being thrown in a upward direction from the start, the spin is overcome by inertia. And a rising Softball is not the same thing as a rising Fastball, which is thrown downward, and then rises.

The same way you get topspin on a curveball thrown overhand.(Think about it). And no it wouldn't work against making it rise. And yes the theory is the same for both the "rise" and the rising fastball.

[SAump]

Originally Posted by nickrego

Not being a softball person, I'd really be interested in how you throw a softball underhand, with any velocity, and get backspin on it, as with an overhand thrown fastball. If you did, it would work against making the ball rise, but since the ball is being thrown in a upward direction from the start, the spin is overcome by inertia. And a rising Softball is not the same thing as a rising Fastball, which is thrown downward, and then rises.

-------------------------
Release the softball under hand and snap the wrist/hand upward to allow the ball to travel upward along the fingers imparting an UPward spin from the front of the ball toward the back of the ball as it is traveling toward the hitter. Softballs have been clocked on radar in the lower seventies.

Grip the baseball along all four seams and snap the wrist downward to allow the ball to travel upward along the fingers imparting an UPward spin from the front of the ball toward the back of the ball as it is traveling toward the hitter. Baseballs have been clocked on radar in the very low hundreds.

Like guitar players, A MLB grip often results in soreness on the ends of the finger and/or the growth of callus. If you have never thrown a baseball which resulted in the growth of callus on the fingertips, then you cannot imagine what the release of a RISING fastball must feel like.
----------------------
callous or callus? Do not confuse the spelling of callous and callus, which sound similar. Callous is an adjective meaning "insensitive or unfeeling," as in a callous remark. Callus is a noun that usually denotes a patch of thickened skin on the hand or foot.

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by NIump50

1. If professional batters, pitchers and catchers from different eras are saying the ball is rising I tend to believe it.
As umpires we are always chastising fans, players and coaches for arguing calls from the stands and dugout. Our #1 response either to them or between ourselsves is generally 'how can they know better than us, we had the best angle and vantage point'.
Well, who has the better vantage point on a fastball than a pitcher, catcher and batter? Let's stay consistent with our arguments.

i cant speak for everyone else, but im not looking at the "rising fastball" issue as an umpire. im looking at it as a former player (catcher), former physics student, and just a general schmuck off the street. ive also looked at it from a pitcher's perspective from the time i spent in the bullpen or at practice with my college pitching coaches, as well as with my world series ring owing HS pitching coach. i havent taken the perspective that "im the umpire, i know it all"

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by briancurtin

i cant speak for everyone else, but im not looking at the "rising fastball" issue as an umpire. im looking at it as a former player (catcher), former physics student, and just a general schmuck off the street. ive also looked at it from a pitcher's perspective from the time i spent in the bullpen or at practice with my college pitching coaches, as well as with my world series ring owing HS pitching coach. i havent taken the perspective that "im the umpire, i know it all"

Brian
Usually quotation marks are used to indicate a direct quote and since you're referring to my post i have to assume you're trying to attribute that quote to me. I'd appreciate it if you corrected your mistake.
Not only did you purposely misquote but you also, purposely or not, misunderstood the the reference to umpires in my my post.
I can appreciate you and your coaches perspective on this issue, I was only giving the perspective of proven and respected players like Tom Seaver, Fergie Jenkins, Ray Lankford and others.
If I was going to get a perspective on golf, I'd be better advised listening to Tiger Woods than my high school health teacher/golf coach.

PS
The organist for the White Sox received a world series ring. Maybe she can give us a definitive answer to the question.

[briancurtin]

i may have misunderstood the reference, but i attributed nothing to you so i dont see the need to change anything.

i dont know about you, but id take the advice of a pitcher who won a game in the world series with the twins, even though hes a gym teacher now and works with the baseball team on the side.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by briancurtin

i may have misunderstood the reference, but i attributed nothing to you so i dont see the need to change anything.

i dont know about you, but id take the advice of a pitcher who won a game in the world series with the twins, even though hes a gym teacher now and works with the baseball team on the side.

So who exactly were you quoting?



When it comes to pitching and how the ball reacts this gym teacher has more or less credibility than Tom Seaver?

Here's an interesting piece:


Every sport is governed by the laws of physics, of course. However, Paul Doherty, senior scientist at San Francisco’s Exploratorium, argues that baseball is a special case......
For example, serious scientific studies have been done on the technique outfielders use to track and catch a fly ball. Another study determined that the “rising fastball” was an optical illusion, based on a batter’s perception of pitching speeds.
And what other sport ever had an official physicist? Yale Professor Robert K. Adair filled that post for the National League from 1987 to 1989, at the request of the late baseball executive (and one-time Yale president) Bart Giamatti.
“I like to point out that Einstein, if he were interested in baseball, still could not from first principles calculate the flight of the ball,” Adair said. “We know the basic rules, but we can’t solve the equations.”

A myriad of mysteries
The unpredictability of a baseball - and the prowess of a pitcher - has much to do with the 216 raised red cotton stitches encircling its cowhide surface.
Excerpt from an article by Alan Boyle

I'm no physicist so correct me if I'm wrong, what I'm reading is movement on a baseball is unpredictable and even Einstein could not predict through physics the movement of the ball, yet we know it won't rise but don't ask us to prove it.
Short of definitive scientific proof to the contrary, I don't think defaulting to the accounts and experiences of respected professionals personally involved is such a reach.
I do enjoy all the sarcasm around this subject, but I haven't seen anyone tackle the question of why an 85mph fastball never 'appears' to be rising.

I'm also quite sure that the once official physicist of the national league, Robert Adair, is not the right person to be sourcing any info from but I couldn't find any appropriate quotes or studies from high school gym teachers.

[Carbide Keyman]

MAKE IT STOP,

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD,

MAKE

IT

STOP !

Doug

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by NIump50

When it comes to pitching and how the ball reacts this gym teacher has more or less credibility than Tom Seaver?

ok, while dan schatzeder is not tom seaver, he still has a ring and still knows whats up. can you read, or did you ignore the previous 20 times when i said that the man has a clue?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by NIump50

Brian
I can appreciate you and your coaches perspective on this issue, I was only giving the perspective of proven and respected players like Tom Seaver, Fergie Jenkins, Ray Lankford and others.

I agree. If baseball players say that a pitched ball can defy the laws of physics it must be true.


Tim.