Rising fastball

[SAump]

Originally Posted by nickrego

It is mathematically impossible to throw a rising fastball.
A) The ball is spinning in the wrong direction.
B) Round objects don't create lift like a wing when traveling through air.
C) The ball is traveling at a downward trajectory with too much energy to overcome direction and gravity.
D) I see rising fastballs all the time !

Saw the video on TV of a cow standing on the roof of a barn.
Folks around here would swear UP and down that it was scientifically impossible for a cow to climb atop a barn.
Some are still wondering how the cow climbed UP there because it can't be explained mathematically.

[LakeErieUmp]

You sound like an economist - you are ASSUMING the cow CLIMBED up there. Simply because a cow is on the roof does not mean it climbed up there itself.
But I'm feeling frisky tonight - what does this "rising fastball" thread say about a SUBMARINE-style pitcher's fastball???

[briancurtin]

speaking of animals getting on things in wierd ways, anyone ever seen this: http://www.wayweird.com/archives/200...ets_pole_3.jpg
it ran so fast that it rose right up there

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by LakeErieUmp

You sound like an economist - you are ASSUMING the cow CLIMBED up there. Simply because a cow is on the roof does not mean it climbed up there itself.
But I'm feeling frisky tonight - what does this "rising fastball" thread say about a SUBMARINE-style pitcher's fastball???

The idea behind a Submarine'r, is he is either throwing perfectly level, or a little up. Ball starts out rising, and continues. Where as a rising fastball starts out level or descending, and then changes direction to rise.

It can't be done !

But please don't tell my son that, as I taught him how to do it. He also has a 90+ fastball with a 12" corkscrew on the end. Too bad he chose to play the ridiculous game of Basketball, instead of continuing on with baseball. The local colleges were frothing at the mouth to get a hold of that arm. And he thinks nothing of it.

[LakeErieUmp]

Oh good Lord you have to get to him!! BASKETBALL???

[SAump]

Movement on a 100 mph FASTBALL: left, right and down only.

You're joking, right? Houston, we need LIFT OFF.

[gsf23]

My cousin could throw a mean rise-ball. It started out a little below the knees and was about shoulder height when it got to the plate.

Of course this was whiffle-ball.

[NIump50]

Originally Posted by gsf23

My cousin could throw a mean rise-ball. It started out a little below the knees and was about shoulder height when it got to the plate.

Of course this was whiffle-ball.

“The good rising fastball is the best pitch in baseball.”
Tom Seaver

Ted Breitenstein, a .500 pitcher for the Cardinals and Reds through the 1890s, threw a rising fastball. Nig Cuppy, a minor star with the Cleveland Spiders, threw what he called a "jump ball"-a rising fastball.
excerpt from "The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers"

In the Dead Ball Era (1903-1919), a "hopping" fast ball was prized, because it led to strikeouts, pop ups, and fly balls, which were generally not dangerous in that era. In the lively ball era (beginning in 1920), the "sinking" fast ball was more prized, because it kept the ball in the infield, and kept down the number of home runs. excerpt from "The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers"

However, while some pitchers could make a ball hop and some people could make a ball "sink," there is no evidence of any major-league pitcher, before 1950, doing both, or switching between one and the other (Satchel Paige threw two distinct fastballs in the 1930s, when he pitched in the Negro Leagues.excerpt from "The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers"

"My fastball had a natural sink to it," they would say, or "My fastball had a pretty good hop to it," or "I had pretty good speed, but my fastball was straight, so I had to keep it away from the middle of the plate."
excerpt from "The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers"

Nick Cuppy expressed this idea succinctly in 1908, in a book called How to Pitch (John Foster). "That there is such a thing as a jump ball I believe is universally conceded," said Cuppy, "but like other pitchers I am in the dark as to its cause. I am positive that it exists, for I have been able to get it myself." Forty years later, there is little evidence of much better understanding.excerpt from "The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers"

Fergie Jenkins emerged as a star in 1967, throwing a rising fastball to right-handersexcerpt from "The Neyer/James Guide to Pitchers"

My thinking was just to go up there and be aggressive, to swing at strikes," Lankford said. "The first pitch was away. But the second was a strike and I was able to drive it out of the ballpark. He has that rising fastball.
CNNSI.com Sept. 2 2001

Facing Johnson's the best challenge that you're going to have in this league. The scary thing about him right now is that he's becoming a better pitcher," said Chicago second baseman Eric Young. "Now he's mixing in a two-seamer with his rising fastball, so you can't even sit on any particular type of fastball. Just adding that one pitch sometimes makes him unhittable."
CNNSI April 30, 2000

I have 2 things to say:

1. If professional batters, pitchers and catchers from different eras are saying the ball is rising I tend to believe it.
As umpires we are always chastising fans, players and coaches for arguing calls from the stands and dugout. Our #1 response either to them or between ourselsves is generally 'how can they know better than us, we had the best angle and vantage point'.
Well, who has the better vantage point on a fastball than a pitcher, catcher and batter? Let's stay consistent with our arguments.

2. One of the most consistent arguments I've heard against the apparent rising fastball is that it doesn't drop as much as a slower fastball therefore giving the illusion of rising.

This explanation comes from an article by Lee Bowman,
Scripps Howard News Service
Terry Bahill, a professor of systems and industrial engineering at the University of Arizona, divides the batting process into thirds --sensory gathering, computing and swinging -- and agrees with Nathan that hitters use mental models of pitching.
He explains that pitchers keep earned-run averages low by trying to confuse those mental models, and uses the myth of the "jumping" or rising fastball to illustrate.
A pitcher will throw several 90-mph fastballs, and the batter develops a mental model and reaction to this speed. Then, the pitcher slips in a 95-mph toss, which looks the same to the batter at the sensory-gathering stage, and he swings for the same spot. But because the ball is actually moving faster, it doesn't drop quite as much as the earlier pitches.

If this were true then why, when a pitcher is consistently throwing 80mph fastballs and then muscles up one at 85mph doesn't it look like a riser?
In fact it should "jump" even higher since the % of increase in speed is even greater than one going from 90 to 95mph.
I've never heard anyone accuse an 85mph fastball of rising.
The logic doesn't work.

Besides the virulent and malicious posts that are forthcoming because I do not subscribe to the pack mentality I really want to hear from someone that can show the flaw in my logic. The illusion theory isn't working for me.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Fastpitch softball pitchers throw balls that rise as they approach the plate, as the spin on these pitches is opposite that of an overhand release, as well as the launch angle and trajectory. That is why they call the pitch a "riser."

[briancurtin]

Originally Posted by NIump50

1. If professional batters, pitchers and catchers from different eras are saying the ball is rising I tend to believe it.
As umpires we are always chastising fans, players and coaches for arguing calls from the stands and dugout. Our #1 response either to them or between ourselsves is generally 'how can they know better than us, we had the best angle and vantage point'.
Well, who has the better vantage point on a fastball than a pitcher, catcher and batter? Let's stay consistent with our arguments.

i cant speak for everyone else, but im not looking at the "rising fastball" issue as an umpire. im looking at it as a former player (catcher), former physics student, and just a general schmuck off the street. ive also looked at it from a pitcher's perspective from the time i spent in the bullpen or at practice with my college pitching coaches, as well as with my world series ring owing HS pitching coach. i havent taken the perspective that "im the umpire, i know it all"