Hockey Style masks or Traditional??
 

I figured I would ask my question first and make sure my punctuation is at the level required for this forum. ;) :D

Ok I am trying to find out if there are any major differences in the two styles of masks? I understand the design but I am not sure if it is preference or what..??? Sorry if this seems like a dumb question but I have just been trying to make sure that there isn't something I am missing.

Thanx for the input

Brian

Brian,

For an unbelievably "in depth" discussion of the question you pose, check the thread at the following link: http://forum.officiating.com/showthr...ghlight=hockey

JM

Or you can look at the very bottom of this page and you can see more conversations about this very subject.

Peace

I have found it superior to a mask.
 

Here is an in-depth explanation of my experience with a Hockey Style Helmet.

http://www.reegind.com/helmet.htm

Mask vs. Helmet, gets about as heated as MAC vs. Windows.

Best thing is to try both.

When I say try both, I mean do an entire game with each. And, if it doesn't happen during the games, get someone to hit you square on the nose with a fastball wearing each. Mask: Ouch, what's that ringing in my ears ? What are those stars doing out in the middle of the day ? Helmet: Did a mosquito just land on me ?

BE YOUR OWN JUDGE !

I guess this boils down to the "increased protection" vs. "comfort" debate. To me it is just personal preference.

Bob P.

...
 

I have worn both. The hockey mask provides a greater field of vision and disperses impact better. The traditional mask, because of how it is worn, transfers the impact to the forehead and more so the chin (jaw). If you take a serious direct hit, this can leave you with problems with your jaw, ears, and sinuses.

There is no debate here, at least not that I have read.

No one denies the increased protection.

As for comfort, helmet feels lighter on your head, no weight hanging off the front of your face, easier to remove, much cooler than a wool cap, able to speak clearly (no pressure on your chin), etc.

The big debate is usually Traditional Look vs. Robo Ump look. I think this debate is debunk at this point, because the "look" has been excepted at all upper levels from College to MLB.

And, I have never had a coach, player, or colleague, comment negatively about me or my umpiring with regard to my helmet. Either you suck, or you don't. (left myself open for you flamers) If you don't suck, nobody even sees, or cares, what equipment you use.

im not denying the increased protection, its definitely there, but not all of us need protection on the top, back, and sides of our head

the mask will do just fine for me, and i have no problems with it. when properly adjusted and used with proper head techniques (ie. not moving), an umpire wearing a regular mask will be just fine.

Well briancurtain, you are a young buck on the way up, and you only need protection in the front.

Some of us work lower levels, or have taken an intentional move down in level, as in my case. The other day I had a ball ricochet off of a close backstop and nail me in the back of the head. I was very glad to have been wearing a helmet.

And even if you don't need protection on the top, back, and sides, there is a definite increase in protection to the face as well. Shots do not ring any bells as they do with the best of conventional masks. They feel like a gnat flew up against your mask.

Nope,
 

"The traditional mask, because of how it is worn, transfers the impact to the forehead and more so the chin (jaw)."

This is not a true statement if you wear your traditional mask correctly.

...
 

Yeah? Would you like to explain how you think this not the case? It is a proven fact that umpires hit while wearing the helmet vs. traditional mask sustain fewer and or less severe concussions and compression injuries. This is so much true that PBUC now reccomends the helmet.

Well,
 

First of all FS let me talk to wearing the mask correctly.

IF the mask hanges from your face and is not too tight, the engineerning is for the mask to spin or fly off at contact.

I wouldn't expect you to understand that.

I have worn a mask for decades and when worn correctly all energy is displaced before hitting your face (jaw) . . . I don't expect you to understand that.

My point, for those that do understand, is if worn correctly there is little to no energy displaced to your face (jaw).

Of course this is just my opinion (and that of EVERY mask engineer) . . . but Jiggy you know everything.

Regards,

PS:

Please give me documented proof of your statement that HSM umpires recieve less injuires.

I'm waiting.

Guys, Tim is correct when he describes the mask flying off or spinning off.

I've been hit with some pretty damn hard foul balls as well as direct pitches. Sometimes the balls have hit me straight on, sometimes they've hit the side/top/bottom of the mask. In each situation, I "felt" the hit, but not in a negative or painful manner.

I use the GD new view mask and love it and have had no problems with it when it has been hit hard.

i definitely agree. this man speaks the truth.

I had an inside fastball hit be directly in my mask last year and it jumped off my head and landed at my feet. By the time it landed I was asking the catcher "is that the best you can do?".

Tim,

I'm afraid your reputation does nothing for you on this one. I have enough Mechanical Engineering experience to confidently say, you are DEAD WRONG.

Think about it; A mask has two pads, where the contact points are the Forehead and Jaw, for a properly fitted and worn mask. Now your going to actually state, in public, with a straight face, that the energy from a ball hitting a mask is not going to be transfered to the ONLY two contact points, the Forehead and Jaw ?

Where is it going to be transfered to, your cup ?

Here is the crux of the debate;

Old guys = Mask

Young guys = Helmet

The young guys are going to win this one, because the old guys are going to die before the young guys. I am 47, and I have been wearing a mask since I was 44 (still a young guy).

But keep fighting for your right to wear a mask. Just make sure your argument is valid. I would even accept, "I refuse to try it, think about it, or watch someone wearing one." At least it would be sincere.

Gee Nick,
 

I don't think I said anywhere in my post that I was against wearing the HSM.

That's old news.

I am simply saying that mask manufacturers believe that a mask should work much like an F1 race car and disapate the energy of the strike by having the mask spin or fly off your face.

Even the MLB guy (sorry Nick I forget which one) that was injured last year admitted freely that he had been wearing his mask "too tight."

I have passed the emotional side of iffin' a guy wears a HSM or traditional mask . . . I see you haven't.

Regards,

The thing you aren't hearing from Tim is that a mask, WORN PROPERLY, will cause the same amount of pain and discomfort when hit as the HSM. None. A mask is designed to be worn loose and, when hit, it's supposed to spin up and off the face.

If you like the HSM, fine, but don't act like it's more dangerous to choose the mask, cause it isn't.

BTW, I wear a HSM.......cause I think the VISION is better -- for no other reason.

I have always worn the hockey-style mask. I had a foul ball hit my shoulder pad and bounced toward my head. Luckily, it deflected off part of my helmet and just barely hit my face. If I was wearing a traditional mask, I'm sure it would have been a lot worse. I love the increased protection and I feel that I have excellent vision (which is really important!)

I guess I wore the mask correctly, because mine often spun, sometimes completely off, when a pitch hit it right, and I can't remember ever really getting my bell rung (except once from a thrown bat). This year I decided to get the All-Star UMP2000 helmet. On the plus side: better vision; protection on the back, top, and sides—not a trivial benefit; quite comfortable; definitely less jolt. The minuses: harder to remove (though with the vision it provides, you can leave it on); harder to get on, as you have to see that the straps are straight, and then you have to position the back plate; and the worst thing about it, a very loud rattle in the ears if the pitch hits the cage hard. We haven't had any hot days yet here in NJ, so I can't comment on how it will feel in August.

Guy around here found his grandfather's mask from the 1930s. No way did that one get spun. It felt as if it must have weighed 6 or 8 pounds.

Were you umpiring Delmon Young at the time?:D

A Mask is not going to spin off if you take a direct hit, say from an untouched fastball. Your Forehead and Jaw are going to take all the energy, and you are going to feel it.

Yes, if a ball hits you from an angle, like a foul ball, or a ball that grazes off the catcher, your mask will spin off, and take some of the energy with it. But who wants a rug burn, and a bent nose from that ?

Look, wear what you will, I don't care. But just as if we were talking about a RULE, we need to get the facts correct, for those who have no experience with both pieces of equipment. There just is no comparison of the way the ball's energy is transfered between a Mask vs. Helmet. They are engineered differently.

If someone was stating inaccurate information about a chest protector, I was take the same stance. It is important that the information on this board is accurate, and informative. Just trying to do my part.

I think I changed my mind.
 

I have always used a mask. I have used the Plus Pos Zero Grav. for three years now. I love the fact that it is very light and the single bar gives me a pretty good field of view. For some reason this year, I have been getting killed behind the plate. I have been doing mostly Varsity ball so I can't blame the catchers. Almost all of my hits have been fouls. At my game this past Monday, I took a foul off my right forearm. I usually don't bruise real easily but this thing got ugly. I was showing it off to my partner last night and told him to take notice as to where I was setting up because I was getting killed this year. He reached into his trunk and pulled out the HSM he got this year. I showed him my zero grav. and he said he liked how light it was but would never go back to the mask. Well the game progressed and once again I took a beating. I got hit in the shoulder from a foul that bounced off the close back stop. Took two fouls off the mask, and the decisive blow was a ball in the dirt, that the catcher never touched. It bounced up and hit me on the right side of my jaw! If I had on a HSM I don't think it could have got me. Next year I will look for the best, lightest HSM on the market. If any of you can recommend one, please give a hollar. I don't care how much it costs I want the lightest one possible.

Nick,

I think you have waaaaayyyyy too much invested in this discussion. I have worn a mask and I have taken foul balls off the mask and the mask spun around and I hardly felt a thing. I am sure the type of mask pad and weight of the mask might have some effect on whether you "feel" the blow of the baseball. Who cares in the end? All this is anyway is an opinion. It means little to me or anyone else that uses any equipment. If you like the helmet so much than use the damn helmet. I will not use a helmet and I do not like the overall feel and look of the helmets. Now those are facts from my experience and that is why many umpires have not made the switch. How many times is this issue going to be debated as if we are talking about global warming?

Peace

Scabs Errrr Masks vs. Helmets
 

A lot of emotion seems to be tied up in this debate.

I wear a mask. I wore a helmet once for one game and disliked it. It had better vision, but not much else appealed to me. It was harder to get on and off and I didn't see myself, but I know I looked like a bobblehead. I know that because my partners who wear them look like bobbleheads. My association seems to think that how an umpire looks is important, and I think the mask looks more professional. My opinion.

Yes, I am sacrificing safety for fashion. I have taken several shots in the mask over the years and so far, I seem to be ok.

Wear a mask if you want. Wear a helmet if you want. Can't we all just get along?

Strikes and outs!

Nick, Nick, Nick . . .
 

You should slow down and READ what is written it might help.

No where have I said a traditional mask is better (or worse) than the old HSM.

I simply correctly commented that a mask worn correctly works like an F1 racer at crash time and disapates energy.

IF your mask is "hanging loosely" as design dictates EVEN A DIRECT SHOT will place less energy transferred to your noggin'. The mask "may" spin or "pop off" but you seldom feel the energy of the ball.

Nick you have been the strongest proponet of the HSM for a few years. I understand that and give you the credit (I believe you once said you'd be surprised if the NFHS did not demand umpires wear the HSM eventually -- and I won't go against that as within five years ALL DEFNSIVE players will required to wear helmet with face masks).

The bigger issue is will we be able to buy traditional masks as the general market decreases in use.

Regards,

WOW, I think the defensive face masks are a stretch but I get the point....

But anyways I purchased an HSM Yesterday after reading all the post and some study on my own. It took alittle time to get used to it and get it adjusted correctly, but in the end I really like the view and nice cool breeze it afforded. Also I took an untouched fastball to the mask in the top of the first ( couldn't happen any other way ) and I felt nothing, I just heard the impact instead of felt it.

Thank you everyone for your input it really did help with the decision.

Panama City Brian

I'll be right pleased to take that Zero Grav off your hands when you get ready to sell, let me know :)

I just heard the impact instead of felt it.

Well put, but man, do you hear it (at least with the All-Star 2000). It's almost like a firecracker going off near your head.

My +POS SUL zero gravity was all dented up after one season. The black resin mask they sold a few years ago is still mint after many games. I wonder why they discontinued that item.

HSM is OVERRATED
 

HSM Facts:
1) More expensive, 2) More heat, 3) Less professional, 4) Less padding, 5) Less comfort, 7) Less buying INFO, 8) Harder to size, 9) Harder to take on/off, 10) Harder to handle or store in gym bag, 11) Safety record (NIL), 12) Must cut hair or wear silly stocking cap and 13) Must have small head to fit right.

Safety:
1) Catcher NO longer tosses it or trips over it because they no longer take it off durring the course of a PLAY.
2) More deflection,the impact is significantly reduced. However, the UMPIRE standing behind the catcher is now more likely to take the DING on the unprotected ARM. Ouch.

Challenge:
1) Name one umpire or catcher whose carreer ended from an injury caused by the impact of a foul ball to the mask. Then prove that this injury would have been prevented as a result of wearing a HSM over the traditional mask.
2) Name and discuss any fact or safety issue that may prove added value of wearing a HSM.

Consider this bull
 

Read this link, http://www.reegind.com/helmet.htm, given earlier.
Marketing AD 101 sounds comical to me.

Only 2 things are likely to happen and remotely close to sound advice:
1) You will get hit on the nose, and 2) you should add a throat guard.

Black HSM is NOT COOLER. Your head is losing a significant amount of heat. The 100 degree air feels COOLER because the TEMP above your head inside the mask is much WARMER. Place an expensive pair of sun glasses over your head on a warm day after a brief jog and see if water has not condensed on the lense. HEAT.

"There is a reason why most catchers have switched and why Hockey has been using them for years."

Well, yeah, they play INDOORS over ICE and the TEMP is below 70 degrees.

I heard it was because it was found that in low temps it had a tendency to shatter/crack on impact. I have no direct evidence on this, however.

Tim,

Does it work as well as Paul Dana's recently did, or those of Roland Ratzenberger and Ayrton Senna in the San Marino Grand Prix at Imola in 1994? Maybe a better analogy would be more appropriate, hmmmm?:eek:

Can you please provide support for both statements ("it's a proven fact ..." and "PBUC recommends ...")? Thanks.

ive heard/read it was more from the effect heat plays on it, like sitting in your hot trunk all day. thats just what i remember though, could be both situations actually.

im also interested in what bob asked about.

You are correct, and I never said you said that.

I addressed your statement that a mask does not transfer the impact of a hit to your forehead and jaw.

Sds
 

Senna's crash was 160 MPH directly into a concrete wall . . . not sure how all that energy could have been deflected even if he was wearing a HSM.

Nick, will you ever get past this kind of stuff.

It has become funny.

Regards,

My helmet was $85. I own a mask that cost more.

How is it "less professional?" Chuck Meriwether wore one at the A's game I attended last night. BTW, he didn't even bother taking it off when rotating up to third.

Anyone that says the helmet is cooler is on drugs. The heat is the one big drawback to the helmet.

I decided that, heat be damned, safety is paramount...so I just ordered one of these:

http://www.antiquesofthesea.com/aos_..._helmet_01.jpg

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Good one!

Jmoho
 

Less Professional

http://www.home-team-sports.com/stor..._26940393.html

I think this would protect the front, top, side and back of my head.
I also think that it would provides a better field of view than any baseball or hockey helmet.
I also think that if you redesign the face mask for baseball, it would provide significantly better protection for my lower jaw, neck, and spine.

Would you allow umpires to wear a similar redesigned baseball helmet if it provided better protection overall?

Best helmet-mask combo on the market!


http://www.redbrick.dcu.ie/~tofarr/p.../meBeerHat.jpg


Tim.

Only if they were A & M helmets.:)

I have been reading some threads that mention that umpires don't need to take off the helmets when running or making their calls. I don't agree with this mechanic.

I may not get my helmet off on a hot-shot down the line, but in all other situations, I remove my helmet with my left hand, just like a mask, and make all my calls with the helmet in my left hand.

I think running around with the helmet on does look unprofessional, just as keeping a mask on would. It is the reason that someone mentioned that it looked like a bobble head doll, because of all the bobbing up and down running with it on would cause.

There is no reason not to remove the helmet, just as you would a conventional mask.

JM2cents

1) not necessarily, 2) true, 3) false, 4) padding not needed, 5) way more comfort, 6) you skipped 6, 7) what?????, 8) quite easy to size - 2 sizes fit all,
9) if you are an imbicile, perhaps harder, 10) yes, if you store your gear in a "gym bag," but most of us use equipment bags, 11) N/A 12) why on earth, sweaty hair? get over yourself!!! 13) total bullsh*t.

Safety:
1) Really? All the catchers I know flip the helmet off to make plays (except steals). Have not had one catcher try to catch a pop-up with his helmet on.
2) Totally a logical fallacy. Try again.

Challenge:
1) Stupid challenge, as it is totally irrelevant what has or has not occurred in the past.
2) When the ball hits you in the back of the head, it doesn't hurt. I got a rebound in the back of the noggin the other night. Also would be nice to have if Delmon Young is nearby with a bat in his hands.:eek: