Help With a Scoop at First

[mcrowder]

Actually, the throw must beat the runner for there to be an out... but that's neither here nor there.

I'm having trouble seeing why you have more trouble with the short hop catch by F3 than with any other play. The timing is the same (for the umpire), the sounds involved are the same, what you're looking for is the same. I don't see this as any more difficult than a normal banger at first.

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

Actually, the throw must beat the runner for there to be an out... but that's neither here nor there.

I would like to add that the throw must beat the runner at 1st base only. All other bases, the runner must beat the throw / tag. (at work, and don't have my rule books to quote)

It has become common practice at all levels (90' diamond) to adopt the runner must beat the throw/tag at ALL bases.

If you don't CLEARLY see that the runner beat the throw/tag, OUT.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by nickrego

I would like to add that the throw must beat the runner at 1st base only. All other bases, the runner must beat the throw / tag. (at work, and don't have my rule books to quote)

It has become common practice at all levels (90' diamond) to adopt the runner must beat the throw/tag at ALL bases.

Okay I'm confused. Doesn't the ball have to beat the runner to any base for there to be a play? No ball no play right?

Were your trying to say that on a force play the runner has to reach the base before the fielder catches the ball and touches the base?

Were you also trying to say that on a tag play the fielder has to tag the runner before he reaches the base?

Originally Posted by nickrego

If you don't CLEARLY see that the runner beat the throw/tag, OUT.

On a tag play the throw can beat the runner to a base and the runner still be safe. There has to be a tag to have an out (on a non-force situation).

If you don't clearly see that the fielder made the tag then the runner is safe. You can't call what you don't see.

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by Justme

Okay I'm confused. Doesn't the ball have to beat the runner to any base for there to be a play? No ball no play right?

Were your trying to say that on a force play the runner has to reach the base before the fielder catches the ball and touches the base?

Were you also trying to say that on a tag play the fielder has to tag the runner before he reaches the base?



On a tag play the throw can beat the runner to a base and the runner still be safe. There has to be a tag to have an out (on a non-force situation).

If you don't clearly see that the fielder made the tag then the runner is safe. You can't call what you don't see.

When I say Throw/tag, that distinguishes between the two DIFFERENT play types.

But OK, I'll spell it out...

If you don't clearly see the runner beat the Tag, OUT.
If you don't clearly see the runner beat the Throw, OUT.

Also, I agree completely with Pete's assessment.

On Tuesday, I had two close plays at 1st with the same timing;

a) Slow roller hit to F6, speedster at bat. F6 bare hands the ball and makes a great throw to 1st. OUT ! (no arguments)

b) Hard grounder hit to F5, bounces off his glove, picked up by F6, thrown into the dirt and one hopped by F3. SAFE ! (no arguments)

In both of these plays, the ball to glove / runner to base, timing was the same.

Just goes to show you, that even though we have a nice set of rules, it still isn't Black and White.

[David B]

Originally Posted by nickrego

When I say Throw/tag, that distinguishes between the two DIFFERENT play types.

But OK, I'll spell it out...

If you don't clearly see the runner beat the Tag, OUT.
If you don't clearly see the runner beat the Throw, OUT.

Also, I agree completely with Pete's assessment.

On Tuesday, I had two close plays at 1st with the same timing;

a) Slow roller hit to F6, speedster at bat. F6 bare hands the ball and makes a great throw to 1st. OUT ! (no arguments)

b) Hard grounder hit to F5, bounces off his glove, picked up by F6, thrown into the dirt and one hopped by F3. SAFE ! (no arguments)

In both of these plays, the ball to glove / runner to base, timing was the same.

Just goes to show you, that even though we have a nice set of rules, it still isn't Black and White.

You made the expected call and it worked as usual. Of course there are some umpires ....

Thansk
David

[nickrego]

Originally Posted by David B

You made the expected call and it worked as usual. Of course there are some umpires ....

Thanks
David

And I used to be one of them

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by mcrowder

The timing is the same (for the umpire), the sounds involved are the same, what you're looking for is the same.

The sounds aren't the same -- there's the added sound of the ball hittinig the dirt, and the loss of velocity on the ball (and, probably, the change in the way the ball is caught) changes the sound of the ball in the glove.

As far as the "tie goes to xxxx" issue -- note the difference in wording between 6.05j (tie goes to the runner since the bag wasn't tagged *before* the runner touches the base) and 7.08e (tie goes to the defense since the runner didn't reach the base *before* the fielder tagged the base).