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Mon Apr 24, 2006, 08:22pm
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Any Other Way?
Had this situation come up in our game today, and I'm not sure if there is any other possible solution to the problem. It actually is the second time something like this has happened this year!
MS game; 4th inning, 1-0 ballgame. R3. Batter strikes out, BU signals two down, pitcher isn't sure so he checks with PU who also says 2 out. Batter bunts ball back to mound, Pitcher goes to first, runner crosses the plate. Offensive team comes in and tells ump that there was only one out. Umpire asks what my book has, and sure enough, there was only one! Umpire is a real good umpire, was apologetic, but said there was nothing he could do. Of course, the run mattered! We ended up stopping 1-1 after nine innings due to time limit. Is there anything else the umpire could have done? Could we have sent the last batter back up to hit, put R3 back on base, and go at it again? Again, this is the second time that an umpire has given the wrong count/out to the players and it turned out to be a big play (first time it went our way, so things really do even out!). 
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Mon Apr 24, 2006, 08:35pm
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Sorry, there is nothing that can be done. I forget which reference Jim Evans pulled it out of, but he teaches that is the responsibility of the players and coaches to know the outs and the count even if the umpires mess it up. After all, they are what they are, and umpires can't change them, unless by penalty of a rules infraction.
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Mon Apr 24, 2006, 08:46pm
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Wow, that's a tough one. In a MS game I would be inclined to do-over, if both books have the same info and coaches are reasonable. Above MS I would expect the team scorekeeper to be on their toes and inform the manager that PU thinks there are two outs instead of one.
I don't see how PU could lose track of the number of outs, especially if there have not been any yet.
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Mon Apr 24, 2006, 11:33pm
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Mon Apr 24, 2006, 11:49pm
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Now I'm just a poor, dumb coach, so some of the intricacies of the art of umpiring remain somewhat elusive to me. For example, I can't for the life of me think of whom you could possibly be referring to in the statement quoted above. JM
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Tue Apr 25, 2006, 12:31am
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I think he meant........
Okay, I'll clear it up for PWL (I can't believe I'm doing this). PWL is also a baseball player, and I do believe he was speaking from a player's perspective here, as in "when I'm playing, I ask someone other than an umpire."
In case he is speaking as an umpire, he probably means asking the official scorer or somebody keeping book. Someone other than the umpire, who in the above illustration, had no idea what was going on. The players and coaches are ultimately responsible for the knowledge of game situations. JM, we do understand the heartbreak of your unfortunate disease. 
__________________
Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25
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Tue Apr 25, 2006, 12:55am
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As I have said before, "Hey, it's embarrassing, and we're sure not out there spreading the word!" I appreciate your compassion  .While I also applaud the generous spirit evident in your interpretation of PWL's remarks regarding the primary subject of this thread, having reread them in their entirety, I believe you are mistaken. I'm pretty sure he is speaking from the perspective of an umpire. I'm just not sure what sport. JM
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Tue Apr 25, 2006, 07:02am
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I guess those little things like IFF situations, uncaught third strikes, timing plays, etc.... are of little consequence........ TFF Tim.
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Tue Apr 25, 2006, 07:09am
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One thing I *don't* do is relay the count when working the bases. It's the plate umpire's job (ultimately) to keep the count and in the rare chance I have it wrong, I'd rather let the plate umpire give it to the players and teams.
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Tue Apr 25, 2006, 08:19am
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The ONLY time I will show the count as BU is if PU is asking me to confirm his count (our "signal" for this is to make eye contact and PU wiggles his fingers - BU then briefly shows the count in front of his chest). PU is still in charge of the count, but if PU has need to ask, BU is there for him.
PWL - take a little care to make note of when you are responding as a player. I'm sure that even you can understand that your comment above sounded WAY off if you were speaking as an umpire.
__________________
"Many baseball fans look upon an umpire as a sort of necessary evil to the luxury of baseball, like the odor that follows an automobile." - Hall of Fame Pitcher Christy Mathewson
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Tue Apr 25, 2006, 08:48am
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I agree
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I don't keep the count either on the bases. If F1 will ask, I walk up a few steps and ask PU what's the count? ( If by chance I dont' know) Thansk David
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Tue Apr 25, 2006, 11:31am
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__________________
Matthew 15:14, 1 Corinthians 1:23-25
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Tue Apr 25, 2006, 01:15pm
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We had almost this same sitch in another thread. If there is one defensive player still left on the field, I feel you can legally bring them all back and continue. Now, if the defensive team has left the field when you discover you only have 2 outs, I think you are stuck.
Now, while I agree that the teams are ultimately responsible for knowing the number of outs, the umpires need to be on top of this also. In this case, as I read it, no one brought the question of the number of outs to the umpires attention until the teams had changed sides between innings. This is clearly a team foul-up, in my eyes. Bob P.
__________________
Bob P. ----------------------- We are stewards of baseball. Our customers aren't schools or coaches or conferences. Our customer is the game itself. Last edited by RPatrino; Tue Apr 25, 2006 at 01:18pm.
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