The Official Forum - Umpire Call Changed

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Quote:

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Rich,

I'm having a hard time picturing this the way you have written it. You were the BU, correct? You went out on the ball down the line from A? The PU called it foul? How did you glance at 1st base if you went out? Why did PU make the call? I am really confused on this one.

The original sitch had the BU in B or C (I believe). You are right. Nobody should ever need help on their calls at 1st base when working in A.

And after re-reading, it did not specify the position of the BU, but where else but in the middle could he be and still not see the tag properly?

The home run ball was down the THIRD base line. Sorry I left out that most important detail.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPatrino

David, how can you assume that the BU was out of position on this play? The original post states that the BR was called out on the tag, and that the U1 called it as such. Sounds to me that the coach was just trolling for a "second opinion", he set the hook and he caught something. That's bad!!!

This brings up the importance of a thorough pre-game meeting between partners. Make sure you both ( or all of you) know that no one will approach a partner without being asked by the partner.

I reiterate that in the pre-game plate meeting . " If you want to discuss a call, ask for time, when it is granted, go to the umpire who made the call. We want to get the call right." If they forget (they always do), and if they come to me on my partners call, I redirect them.

Something I also discuss in the partner pre-game is the concept of asking for help on plays where my partner might need it, before the coach even asks. This saves a lot of time and eliminates problems. It goes something like this, "partner, if you need my help, just ask, but do it before the coach says something".

Now, if my partner has a good look at the play, and he/she is convinced they got it right, how can I jump in and "over rule" that? Do other's have a different approach to handling this?

Bob P.

If you are in position you will never have to ask anyone about a call.

The only way you have to ask is if you are out of position. I'm not saying that I've never asked for help on a play, but out of many thousands of calls, I can count on one hand the number of times (with the checked swing being the exception)

The BU is to call the bases and its his call, not the PU.

I've had several instances this year when even with a good pregame I've had the BU out of position and looking at me as PU for help.

Make the call and live with it (that will make you a better ump down the road)

Thanks
David

Quote:

Originally Posted by David B

If you are in position you will never have to ask anyone about a call.

I will agree that knowing how to get into position, and how to swivel or lean once in position, will keep you out of trouble 99.99% of the time. But this still leaves the 1 in 10000 where something odd happens and you do NOT see everything that is relevant (this percentage varies by size of crew and size of diamond, of course).

Case in point would be the tag/no-tag at 2nd base in the NLCS. The MLB umpire absolutely missed this call, as weird things caused the tag to be 180 degrees away from him. And he was too proud to ask for help (on a 6 man crew, where at least 2 if not 3 of the umpires COULD HAVE had a better angle). This tag was missed by at least a foot and a half - but even with perfect positioning, he couldn't see it.

David B:

For the most part I agree with you. On plays where you start in A position, you should be able to get 99.99% of your calls.

The 2 man system is a series of compromises. If we worked 3 or 4 man the majority of our games then I would expect the instances of asking for help at 1b would be virtually non-existent.

I believe that to assume that we should never ask for help, and that we live and die by an erroneous call, where our partner might have the perfect view, is a fallacy that does the game a disservice.

Bob P.

I think we're on the same page

Quote:

Originally Posted by RPatrino

I think we agree a lot more than you wrote. As I stated "if the BU gets in position then he doesn't have to ask".

Therein lies the problem - we have way too many officials who are lazy and simply don't work hard to get in position.

That is why we have so many threads on getting help.

Certainly there are times we will have to ask, but as i mentioned in my first post, they will be very few and far between ....

I think we do young umpires a disservice if we don't state the obvious. Its the BU's call, make the call.

Someone mentioned a play in the MLB last season, there is no way they are going to ask for help on that play, and no way I'm going to ask for help on that play. (Sometimes you just have to umpire, its not a perfect science)

thanks
David

I can see (in the MLB play I mentioned) him not immediately going for help.

But when the coach came out to ask him to get help, he HAD to know that he did not actually see a physical tag, and just assumed one (he didn't see one, because one didn't exist!). At that point, an umpire has an obligation to the game to see if anyone else had an angle. At least 2, possibly 3 umpires hand a better angle on this than him, and would EASILY have seen the missed (by 18 inches minimum) tag.

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Emerling

I guess I should have finished that 12-step-program on political correctness. Dang!

I once had to attend a 12-step program for Type-A personalities.

In an hour, we had it down to 4. :cool: