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-   -   Tough call at 1st...Say Goodbye to another Asst. Coach (https://forum.officiating.com/baseball/26147-tough-call-1st-say-goodbye-another-asst-coach.html)

nickrego Thu Apr 20, 2006 01:50pm
Let's Get This Straight !
 
R1 bumped F3 off the base !

F3 did not obstruct or touch the runner in ANY way (other than the tag) !

Quote:
R1's momentum takes him into F3, bumping him (F3) into foul territory. This causes F3's foot to slip out from under R1's foot. R1 is now standing on the base.
This was a FED HS game.

I hope this clears things up.

nickrego Thu Apr 20, 2006 01:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
No, but anyone who thinks they can see a foot COMPLETELY on top of another foot from 50 feet away is delusional. We aren't paid to guess out there.
I think you better be able to see it, or don't work anything other than a 4 man crew, so you can sit in a lawn chair at your base and make your calls.

Rotation ? What rotation ? I need to be 6' from my call, or I can't make it ?

Besides, think about all the great calls coaches make from the opposite dugout, or fans make from the stands.

Rich Thu Apr 20, 2006 02:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrego
I think you better be able to see it, or don't work anything other than a 4 man crew, so you can sit in a lawn chair at your base and make your calls.

Rotation ? What rotation ? I need to be 6' from my call, or I can't make it ?
You do the best you can. 2-man is a series of compromises.

If you would bet your life and/or career on the call you made in the OP even with a camera pointed right at the base and instant replay for the world to see, then I'd support your call.

If not, you should've called the runner safe. Benefit of the doubt, ANY doubt, should definitely go to the runner on this play.

nickrego Thu Apr 20, 2006 02:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
You do the best you can. 2-man is a series of compromises.

If you would bet your life and/or career on the call you made in the OP even with a camera pointed right at the base and instant replay for the world to see, then I'd support your call.

If not, you should've called the runner safe. Benefit of the doubt, ANY doubt, should definitely go to the runner on this play.
Fair enough.

Let me add two things;

1) On this play, the runner came in slow enough that I am very confident in what I saw. But I guess that doesn't mean it is what I should have called, because I do believe in calling the expected call, at the right time.

2) Me personally...When a runner comes back to the base standing up, rather than hustling in with a hard dive, if the play is close, I bang them them out. No rule to support this. Just my way of making a decision on a close play.

3appleshigh Thu Apr 20, 2006 02:11pm
You continue to give this call to the 1st baseman, you might as well get out the first aid kit now. With metal spikes on I would coach my kids to make sure the 1st baseman PAID for the OUT, you wanna block the bag, fine, but your gonna bleed as I step throught the top of your foot. I'm gonna reach first your foot there or not.

Kaliix Thu Apr 20, 2006 02:46pm
Exactly right. These things have a way of taking care of themselves. I had a kid I know complain about this very thing to me (not at a game) and I told him that if the first baseman tries to block the bag with his foot, go hard into the bag feet first. I told him not to try and intentionally hurt the kid (ie spikes up high or wind up into the slide), but to just slide hard into the bag and if you have to go through his foot to get to the bag, so be it.

There is a reason that 1st baseman don't block the bag with their foot or leg. It is bush league and will get you hurt. IMHO

Quote:
Originally Posted by 3appleshigh
You continue to give this call to the 1st baseman, you might as well get out the first aid kit now. With metal spikes on I would coach my kids to make sure the 1st baseman PAID for the OUT, you wanna block the bag, fine, but your gonna bleed as I step throught the top of your foot. I'm gonna reach first your foot there or not.

SanDiegoSteve Thu Apr 20, 2006 05:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
No, but anyone who thinks they can see a foot COMPLETELY on top of another foot from 50 feet away is delusional. We aren't paid to guess out there.
I didn't read the word "completely" in the original post. He said that the runner was on F3's foot (which was not on the base, but on the 2nd base side of it), and not touching the base. I'm sorry, Rich, but I can see that play from the angle I bust in for from B and get. Clear as glass, I can see when the foot isn't on the base. Let me illustrate the best I can:
http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/12/12_3_25.gif BASE

:)

cbfoulds Thu Apr 20, 2006 07:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by irefky
My brother had this play this week.

BR hit ball in to deep short, F3 is prepared to take throw and BR steps on F3's foot then the ball gets to F3. My brother calls BR safe. He knows BR did not touch the base but would have if F3 did not have his foot on top of the base.

However, F3 screams at his coach and tells him what happened. The HC appeals to PU, not the Bu and the PU calls BR out. Well, BR's HC gets tossed as he argues the call.

As I told my brother, PU should not have appealed, that was BU to appeal to PU. Anyway, PU should have left things alone.
OK, I ....THINK..... I agree w/ irefky:
but would someone please tell me in what demented CalvinBall universe does a rat "appeal to ..." an umpire other than the one who actually made the call AND GET ANY RESPONSE AT ALL??

This happens to me, I'm not going to the visitors for the bus, I'm looking to borrow a bat.

SanDiegoSteve Fri Apr 21, 2006 11:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3appleshigh
You continue to give this call to the 1st baseman, you might as well get out the first aid kit now. With metal spikes on I would coach my kids to make sure the 1st baseman PAID for the OUT, you wanna block the bag, fine, but your gonna bleed as I step throught the top of your foot. I'm gonna reach first your foot there or not.
I wholeheartedly agree. I was not arguing in favor of F3's positioning. I would stomp on his foot just as hard as I could get away with, if I were the runner. But the fact is that the runner should be diving back on such a close play, and could have easily gotten his hand back on the base in time. I tend not to reward bad baserunning as a general rule of thumb.

LMan Mon Apr 24, 2006 08:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser
If not, you should've called the runner safe. Benefit of the doubt, ANY doubt, should definitely go to the runner on this play.
Yep. Unless the throw beat the runner so badly that Grandma in the cheap seats saw it, the runner is safe every time.

David Emerling Mon Apr 24, 2006 11:01am
On a pickoff play, the fielder almost NEVER puts his foot on the base. Hell, it's not like it's a force play.

If a runner comes in standing up when a throw BEATS him, and that runner places his foot on the fielder's foot (and the fielder's foot isn't even on the BAG!) ... the runner is out!

That's the expected call.

That is quite different when, on a force play, the runner beats the throw but the runner actually steps on F3's foot instead of the bag. Then I would agree with Rich's comments.

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

David B Mon Apr 24, 2006 12:15pm
Assistants???
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nickrego
Pick play at 1st, on at throw-down from the catcher.

F3 does a perfect job of blocking the front part of the bag with his foot as the throw is coming in (seeing a lot of more of this, this year).

F3 catches a high throw just before R1 comes back to the base (so he has the ball as he is blocking the base).

R1 comes in standing up, and puts his foot on top of F3's foot.

F3 applies the tag, while R1 is still in contact with his foot, and not the base.

R1's momentum takes him into F3, bumping him into foul territory. This causes F3's foot to slip out from under R1's foot. R1 is now standing on the base.

I call R1 OUT, and say F3 legally blocked him off the bag.

ASSistant coach at 1st goes ballistic. And tells the runner to stay put. I repeat that the runner is out, and start to head back to A. I see the manager coming out to talk, so I stop and wait for him. Blah, Blah, Blah. Then I tell him to get his, still griping, ASSistant coach under control.

I head back over to A, coach keeps nipping at my heals, so I dump him.

Replacement ASSistant coach comes out, and immediately starts talking to me. Asking why I dumped the other coach, what did he say. I told him that unless he wanted to join him, coach your base. He shuts up after saying, "OK, OK. It's cool we're all friends here." (yeah right)

After the game, as I am walking off the field with my partner, the head coach of the team (that lost by 8 runs, and was down 6 -1 at the time of the call) is telling me that my call cost him the game, and that is was a mistake that effected the game.

I just smiled and kept walking. My partner and I had a good laugh about it at the car.
I agree completely with what Rich said and would like to add that there is way too much talking to an assistant coach. His only reason to be on the field is to coach.

Thanks
David


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