Worked the Plate without an Indicator today.
 

Last year I worked with an umpire, a good one, who did not use an Indicator at the plate, or anywhere else. I have read a few posts and articles on the subject, and have been wanting to try it.

Well, today the perfect opportunity to try it came up. I was scheduled to work a 9 inning adult league game. The home team was 3 players short, so we had a forfeit. The two managers approached us and asked if we would work a 6 inning scrimmage, if the visitors loaned the home team a few players, since we had already been paid for the forfeit. My partner and I agreed.

Since this was just a practice scrimmage, it was very low key, and everyone was having fun. I decided this was about the best time to work without an Indicator.

Wow ! What a difference it makes to be out there naked (no Indicator), and without a scoreboard.

At first, I felt very apprehensive. Nervous about losing the count or outs. I realized just how dependent I had become on that Indicator. I work very hard not to 'live' in my Indicator, but it was always there if I needed it.

First, it really felt weird to not have anything in my left hand. But at the same time, I felt much more balanced. I use the GD stance, so both hands rested on my upper knee the same (very nice). Taking my helmet off was noticeably easier also. Not that it's hard with an Indicator, second nature, but noticeably more comfortable to have your palm touching the cage without worrying about your Indicator slipping out.

I did lose the count twice, early on. One batter had to take 5 balls before he got 1st base. Another got punched out with 2 strikes. Because it was a scrimmage, and everybody was pretty much joking around the whole game, it got laughs instead of jeers. I think the lost counts happened for several reasons;

First, I could not press my left thumb hard against the strike wheel of my indicator when the batters had 2 strikes, or my index finger on the ball wheel, when they had 3 balls. That is a mechanic I adopted early on to help me remember there were 2 strikes, or 3 balls on a batter. So instead, I started digging my left thumb into my leg for 2 strikes, and my right thumb for 3 balls. Worked very nicely.

Second, both of these count loses came after extended action on pitches. One was after multiple pick attempts by the pitcher, and the other was after a passed ball that resulted in several attempted plays on runners. As I look back on previous games using my Indicator, that is when I remember going to my Indicator the most, was after such plays.

Lastly, early on, I felt myself spending too many mental resources focusing on the fact that I didn't have an Indicator in my hand. Once I got over that, I did a much better job of keeping track of everything.

In conclusion, I'd have to say it was a very positive experience. I felt my focus on the information I needed to remember throughout the game was better. But my jury is still out as to whether I am going to discontinue using an Indicator. I have three days to decide, before my next game.

Hooray!
 

Nice job, Nick.

Get rid of that crutch. I find that I remember specifically the locations of the pitches a batter receives .... and I no longer get confused by forgetting those pitches and then relying upon whether or not I clicked that passed ball onto my idiotclickercounterthingamobob.

Between pitches I will ring the count up on my fingers to keep it fresh in my mind and it is only when caught off guard that I have to go back and revisit the pitch locations to decide the count.

I might have a couple left in my bag but the others I have given away.
:D

Which thumb?
 

Nice goin', Nick.
Dunno if I'll ever be able to do that.
But I have a question. Why Left thumb for Strikes and Right thumb for balls?
mick

I think you should have stuck to using your left thumb when you went digging for balls, Nick. Although I wouldn't suggest leaving that left hand in your pocket very long!


Sorry, I couldn't resist............


LOL

Tim.

What is the big freakin deal? If you want to use an indicator use the indicator. If you do not want to use the indicator, do not use the indicator. This to me is about as silly an issue as if you wear a mask or not. I do not see how this is going to help anyone or hurt anyone to call balls and strikes which ultimately is what we are out there to do.

Peace

JR - what's wrong with hearing an actual story about a fellow umpire's experiences when trying to experiment with this? What in the world could have possibly made you so bitter about this thread? Good grief.

Need a hug today, Rut? :)
mick

I did not say there was anything wrong with it. I just wonder why we are so obsessed of someone uses an indicator or not. Someone that would come to this board that is either new or not a baseball umpire would think that an indicator is the reason we can do our jobs or not. If you want to talk about it that is your right and it is Nick's right to tell the story. I just do not see why it really matters one way or the other if someone makes a personal decision. Now are we going to debate what type of cup we use? ;)

Peace

Do you need one. :D

Peace

Ooucchh!! I think I broke my indicator.
 

:D At least carry an indicator with you. It might come in handy. Take a ball on the hand and you might not be using that method. I will put mine in my pocket on those rare occassions the scoreboard operator is on top of things. I also signal the count more often as a personal reminder.:rolleyes:

Ha! Absolutely !
http://www.deephousepage.com/smilies/hug.gif

Come on, Jeff. You say repeatedly that you could care less what others think, yet you chime in as if your opinion is the only one on the board. How many times do we need to discuss the fact that if you don't like what's being discussed in a thread it's much simpler to pass it by rather than making a rude comment. The only purpose your initial post in this thread could have possibly served was to disrupt it. I know I for one was interested in what Nick had to say about going without an indicator. I've thought about it myself, but may have needed a little nudge. That's what this forum should be about, discussing ideas that may be foreign to some.


Tim.

Tim,

Are you going to answer my question Tim? What is so important about who uses or does not use an indicator? Asking a question does not make me rude or out of line. I asked a question because this board seems to be obsessed over what someone uses that may or may not help them work a baseball game. Then when people show objections to the use of an indicator, then next thing they do is refer to LL Umpires and what we see on TV during the LL World Series. If you really want to discuss these issues as you claim you do, you should answer my very legitimate question as to why this seems to be a major issue on the internet (funny I never see a big discussion of this with umpires I come in contact with on a daily basis). I work with guys that work some D1 and they use indicators behind the plate and in some cases on the bases. So if this helps them do their job, why would it not help those that are working HS and below?

Also Tim I think you need to read more of discussions on the internet. Right now there is a discussion on the basketball board about whether to wear the gray shirts as opposed to the striped shirts. There are people raising similar questions on both sides of the issue as I am here (What is the big deal?). This is what happens on discussion boards. People make a post and someone finds an angle and comments on it. I realize that you post in a lot of places and you probably have a hard time keeping up, but that is what goes on here. My question was not at all about anger or being upset, I was asking why this is an issue that gets debated all the time here.

Peace

Only because I was used to using my Left Thumb on the Strike Wheel. I added the Right Thumb for balls because it was the only thumb I had left. :D

I decided on this new mechanic on the fly out of desperation (the mother of all invention). It worked, I just hope I don't cut off the circulation in both my legs on a 3-2 count ! :eek:

BANANA !

And I ain't giving that up !

Jeff:

Can't you be objective enough to see at least see a perceived hostility in your post?

I do think you're wrong in that if an umpire has the focus to go through a game without an indicator he will benefit on his focus on tracking pitches.

Is is a significant improvement? Probably not. Is it worth discussing from time to time? Absolutely.


Tim.

You might recall several long, involved threads started by a dufus ( who is no longer with us) who thought it would be interesting to talk about every item in his equipment bag, including his cup!!

Bob P.

If there is hostility perceived, then that is the problem of people like you that want to always find conflict in a person's statement. You cannot see my expressions as I ask this question or know my character as to why I am asking the question in the first place. I also told you there was nothing more than me asking a question and you once again are trying to convince yourself of the motive.

Who said there was anything wrong with that? Once again focus on the question that was asked. Is there a problem if someone wants to use and indicator or decides not to use an indicator? What difference should it make to any of us if the particular umpire gets their job done appropriately?

I did not ask if there was improvement, I asked if there was a problem if an umpire chooses to use an indicator or not? If there is a problem, why is it a problem? If it is a problem to you, should it be a problem if they personally decide to do what works for them? I also did not ask if the question was able to be discussed or not. Of course it has been discussed. Just do a search and you will get some indication how much it has been discussed.

Peace

It's become more and more painfully obvious to me why others dislike you, Jeff.


I know, I know, you don't care what anyone thinks of you, and theirin lies the problem.


Tim.

Just Do It
 

WHY YOU BE SWEATIN' THIS, TIMBO? PUT YOUR INDICATOR IN YOUR POCKET AND START THE GAME WITHOUT IT. IF YOU HAVE TROUBLE REMEMBERING THE COUNT OR IT DOESN'T FEEL RIGHT, PUT IT BACK IN YOU HAND AND USE THE DAMN THING.

THIS SHOULD ANSWER ALL YOUR QUESTIONS BETTER THAN ANY FORUM THREAD.

PEACE :(

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/la...smiley-001.gif Good one !

I really do not care that other people dislike me Tim when there only interaction with me is on the internet. I get along very well with people that I deal with on a daily basis thank you very much.

Do you want to answer my question or do you want tell me why you think you know what I meant or why I asked the question in the first place?

Peace

Yeah Jeff, see it Tim's way or your life has no meaning. Tim your obsessive complex disorder is painfully obvious. Dr. Phil might have an opening on his show. You should check into it.:(

On today's show. People who feel they need to be loved and always right on the Internet chat rooms.:rolleyes:

Lol!!!!
 

He got you on this one Tim.

Peace

I would engage you once again in a little banter were you not so limited in your mental faculties, PWL. It's just not fair for me to do so anymore, so I'll leave you to your pontification on phsycology.


Tim.

Now who is attacking with hostility?

I just asked a question to spark a conversation about a widely discussed issue on this board (and many other internet sites). Now you are talking about someone's mental capacity and name calling someone that is taking you on. Now I did not attack anyone or call them names, but I am the bad guy because I asked a question?

Tim, I think you need to look in the mirror before you start thrown stones at people. If you did not like the question then say that. Do not question my motives to ask a question on a discussion board.

Peace

Oh, my ! <font></font>

Okay, Jeff. Fair enough. How about we back up and you ask whatever question is was you were trying to ask, because I didn't see you asking much of a question. What you asked was, and I quote:
I don't know, Jeff, why don't you tell me what's the big freakin deal with Nick just making an anecdotal post? I didn't see him tell anyone his way was the only way. I just saw him give his opinion on his experience, so it shouldn't have been a deal at all.

Then you made more of a statement with this next quote.
Was there a question cloaked in here that I missed?


Tim.

Jeff,

Are you blind, or what? Did you not see that PWL referred to Tim as obsessive-compulsive and recommended Dr. Phil? Of course you did, and you thought that insult was funny. But as soon as Tim cracked back on your boy PW, all of a sudden you find it to be hostile! Very hypocritical of you.

On the subject of indicators, I would be more impressed with posts that talked about working the plate without a mask. That would be worth discussing.

a thread about a poster's experience of trying something that has been talked about for years, gets absolutely **** on.

i wonder what would happen if umpires were to go on strike and there was to be a discussion on working those games.

Tim,

If you just do a search of this website you will find that many of our discussions are surrounded about the use or none use of an indicator. I am going to assume that Nick posted this story because of the constant pressure of many here to "prove something" by not using an indicator. After he tells this story the very first comment in response was and I quote, “Get rid of that crutch.” Now how is an indicator a crutch? I have worked with a lot of umpires and I never thought their strike zone was any better with or without an indicator. Now tell me Tim in your knowledgeable way, “What is the big deal?” I found Nick’s story interesting, but why are we so obsessed over whether someone uses a tool that helps them in a small way? I have worked with a lot of umpires that will not move from behind home plate, so why should any of us care if an umpire does all the proper mechanics but uses an indicator? If you look just at the bottom of this thread, you will see just a sample of the debates or threads dedicated to indicators. Now if that is what you want to discuss it is your right to do so. I just want to know why we are so concerned with something that is after all a personal decision and is not going to affect the way you umpire. Tim, I got ripped one time because I used a certain kind of indicator over another type of indicator. Nothing was said about my uniform or the way I looked, but someone saw a picture and commented on my indicator. Why are so many people obsessed with a piece of plastic?

Now are you going to answer the question or are you going to debate why I ask the question and how offended you were by the question? You know if you were so offended you could have just passed the thread up. I do not recall I asked you anything directly Tim at the beginning of this thread.

If it makes you feel any better, he is another listed at the bottom called "Ditched my indicator for good." I actually know the person who started the thread. We have worked together as well.

Peace

Steve,

Do you really take yourself that seriously? Hypocritical? Dude, tone it down a couple of notches. It will be OK. ;)

Peace

I should have realized you would try to turn this into being about me. Very predictable. How could I have missed it?

...and maybe some tranquilizers.

This thread brought to you by the fine folks at Pfizer!!!:D :D :D :p :p :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :eek: :eek:

Steve,

What is predictable about your responses on this thread have been all about me and not the topic at hand. You cannot come after me about why I say the things I do then get upset when it becomes about me.

Peace

Aaarrrggghhhhh!
 

Good Lord I get tired of seeing so many threads destroyed and ran off subject again, and again, and again, by Jeff Rutledge. And you say people get along with you??? I can't think of anyone that gets along with you on this forum. You continually make negative posts and then sign them all with "Peace."

You continually make up some question that serves no purpose, and that you really aren't expecting anyone to answer, and then you harp on it again and again and again. Until someone gives up and says, OKAY! I'll answer your question, even though the appropriateness of your question to the thread, is trivial, if not nonexistent.

Jeff, if you don't care about who uses a counter and who doesn't then don't read the thread. Somebody did care. Somebody posted. Some people replied. Why can't you just leave it at that?

It was important to Nick. And I felt it was important that I encourage him.

Do you ever think about how much of your life you have wasted inciting these childish little tirades in which you continually seem so embroiled? I know I think about it for myself every time I open a thread and it's got your name in it. Well here's another thread with a half page of content and 3 pages of impertinent, improper English and frustrated bickering.

To all you others, PLEASE DON'T FEED THE BEARS.:(

Good night.

I almost forgot.

Please Jeff, wear your mask. Use a counter or don't; that's okay. But please wear your mask.

Comment by the Rut.

"What is the big freakin deal? If you want to use an indicator use the indicator. If you do not want to use the indicator, do not use the indicator. This to me is about as silly an issue as if you wear a mask or not. I do not see how this is going to help anyone or hurt anyone to call balls and strikes which ultimately is what we are out there to do."

Well, Rut, here's why.

I'm in Irvine, Ca this past weekend evaluating the Umpires working the UC Irvine Anteaters and the Cal State Fullerton Titans, a D1 game. Three Umpire crew. To work these games, the Umpires have to be pretty good.

Between the three of them (all 3 games) there wasn't an indicator to be found. At that level of Umpiring, carrying an indicator is something you just don't use, in Southern California, anyway.

If you aspire to the highest levels of Umpiring, get used to the idea of not using an indicator. If you are content with working the level of ball that you are currently working, then you would be correct; using, or not using an indicator is just a matter of choice.

Now, reading your past posts, I perceive, correctly or not, that you have a horse**** attitude. You wouldn't be welcome in my organization if you insisted on using an indicator and I insisted that you could NOT use an indicator.

It's a universal thing, Rut, not a local league thing.

Dave
****

Damn, I just read my reply.

I just wrote horse****. Instread of getting booted off the board for 3 months, the word "****" just got replaced by some funny snowflakes.

This politically correct **** has sure come a long way.

****in' great!!

It's not a universal thing, Dave, if you're talking about the plate umpire. Everywhere I've lived, HE'S carried an indicator.

You are probably one of these old guys that think Frank Sinatra was the man back in the day and that they do not play baseball as they used to in the pre-TV era. There are people in this world that say and use language in ways that you are not familiar with. All I will say is that when I speak to people that are either in the same generation as I am or have a similar cultural background as I do; they say "Peace" as to say "good bye" or "see you later." I know you think that the term is about hippies and free love, but it is not.

Asking a question is a "negative" thing? I did not realize that asking a question was negative? I just want to know why as umpires we are so obsessed with the use of something that many fell is a personal tool or something that makes them comfortable. Next thing you are going to tell me we should get into a serious debate over what kind of undergarments we wear prove what kind of umpire you are.

How was the question inappropriate? I think you need to look up what the world "inappropriate" actually means. Maybe you need to look up what the word hyperbole means.

Of course somebody cares about this issue. Maybe this is why we have several topics dedicated to this topic alone. I am not asking this question for you or me. I am asking this question for every newer umpire or not as accomplished umpire that feels they need to do something that is essentually a personal issue and a personal tool.

Now my question was important to me, so what is the difference? ;)

We obviously do not look at life the same way so if you feel I have wasted time then I guess I have wasted time. Actually I do not know if I would say anything that you would agree with, so what is the point?

You obviously need to get some sleep. ;)

Peace

What is your definition of "universal?"
 

Dave, I know a guy who is on a D1 staff (not just someone that works a couple of non-conference games), who has worked some Minor League ball in his career and he uses an indicator when he works the plate.

I even was at a tournament that this particular D1 umpire was working. It is a tournament that many umpires work late in the summer and is a bonding event for many in the association. Well I was not working at this particular time when this D1 umpire had a foul ball hit him in the hand and broke his indicator. Well because I was watching the game he asked me to go get him a replacement and I had to run back to the parking lot, go in my car and get him one of my indicators. This umpire is also a two time state final umpire and is one of the best umpires I have ever worked with. I was kind of on the fence of this issue until I saw that. Also when I work with other college umpires and guys that have history working Minor League ball, they all use indicators as well behind the plate. So I am not sure the "universal" description you gave applies to the people I have come in contact with that work D1 ball.

Peace

Jeff:

I'll do my best to answer your question now that I understand what your question is. Correct me if I'm wrong but your real question was, "Why are people so obsessed with whether or not others use and indicator?"

First, I don't think anyone here is obsessed with this. The truth is I fail to understand why you're confusing healthy discussion with obsession. That's all it is, Jeff, good discussion. Maybe it's a little remedial to some, but it's a topic of interest to many others.

To me, this is no less fruitful than discussions in umpiring circles about how important it is to look professional in ones appearance on the diamond. Would you also say it's an obsession for good umpires to insist on shining their plate shoes or creasing their hats? Doing these things certainly doesn't make them a better balls and strikes umpire, but it serves a purpose.

The worth of the conversation became apparent when DD chimed in and mentioned how he evaluates umpires at the Div 1 level in this regard. After hearing from both Dave and you on the subject I'm able to draw from two completely different perspectives on this before I decide to call some games without one. Though I have to say with Tony, Nick, and Dave all being proponents of going without one, I'm leaning that way.


Tim.

So you are saying that NO MLB umpires use an indicator? I find that almost impossible to believe.

I have never seen/heard anything from experienced umpires, or at camps, or whatever, that losing the indicator was/is expected by a certain level....only that what's important is not to get 'lost' in it and lose focus on the game.

If one aspires to work without one, that's great...I can see how it might more finely-tune your focus and of course be one fewer item to break/lose/etc. But that fact alone doesn't make one a better or worse PU.

.... he says, in a post that is not about the topic at hand.

Look - there are 3 or 4 guys on here that HAVE to make EVERY post an attack on the person making the post. To those, I say, STFU. You bore us.

In fact, I have been told exactly that by a Texas League umpire (who, by the way, said that he did not know of any of his brethren that used one either.)

I'm not saying this to imply one is better than the other or that you can't advance if you need the indicapacifier. But I do maintain that most of you that THINK you need one, probably don't. And I do maintain that I have become more focused since dropping the use of one except when required (and I find that when I AM required, it is a distraction, not an aid.) But ... to each their own. The only thing that bugs me is when someone insists that you need this tool because it's a tool... yet have never REALLY tried it the other way, and thus do not know from whence they speak.