Fair/Foul from position A or D
 

Looking for some help on a screamer down the line while I'm in A or D ...

In pregame we cover it: UIC has the ball to the bag (or to the cutout, depending on who you're working with); U1 or U3 has it past that point. The base (or cut) is like a windowpane ... if it breaks the glass, U1 or U3 has the call. Fine, understood.

I've been doing games for a long time, but it seems like now that I'm at the college level (JUCO), I'm seeing a lot more screamers/hookers. Go figure.

Had a game the other day, with that situation. I'm in A, nobody on. Lefty yanks an inside pitch. 2-hopper right at me. 1B is slightly in front of me, but takes a deep angle on the ball. No contact is made, but I get "pushed" out of position a couple of steps further into foul territory. I watch the ball hook over the bag as this is going on.

I bang it Fair and head down the line to make sure everything is okay in the bullpen area since it's rolling that direction. Two steps down the line, I hear my UIC calling it foul.

Yeah ... we cross-called it. Not good. Yeah, we heard it. Yeah, we talked about it in postgame, and he said he screwed it, that he shouldn't have called it. He did think I had gotten "pushed" out of position, so he took it.

1 - Question ... Am I understanding the "UIC takes it to the bag, U1/U3 takes it after, correctly?
2 - Comment ... I'd much rather see a change in mechanic: UIC takes ground balls between Plate and Bag, U1 or U3 takes anything in the air (line drive or fly), but maybe it's just me ...

Mac

We usually refer to them as "coaches / coeds" ;)

Yes -- you understand it correctly.

This is how I work it as PU.

If it's in front of the BU, I have it. I ground ball should belong to the PU.

If a fly ball drops behind the BU, he has it.

In your sitch, I would have made the call from the plate. You don't need to be calling that ball as your moving anyway.

My .02

From A or D the BU has the bag and beyond. On any ball bounding anywhere near the bag the BU should be the only one making a call. He has the ball and the bag right there in front of him. I don't see why the PU would ever make this call if it was that close.


Tim.

Who has a better look, a BU moving to avoid being hit by the ball, or the PU standing still straddling the line.

I'll take that call.

You stated that it was a "2 hopper right at you". This means that the PU has the fair/foul call all the way because it is a bounding ball not a line drive or fly ball.

In this case, I point to the PU and say "you got it John". I then head out to follow the play in case the ball goes into a dead ball area.

This is the clarification we need ...
 

Yes, bounding ball.

IMO, a bounding ball SHOULD be called by the UIC. But our mechanics books say otherwise.

I like the communication piece above, Ozzy.

2rad4u, to clarify, I wasn't making the call WHILE moving. I had a good look, stepped in, banged it Fair and moved down the line. But I see your (and others') point ... we're moving in that situation, one direction or the other ... UIC is stationary and has a better look.

BTW ... no fault to my UIC on this call. We talked about it afterwards. He said he thought I was pushed out of position, so he took it.

The mistake I made, was to not make eye contact or communicate with him after getting "pushed."

Mac

sounds like you have some pretty exotic colleges in your area

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say as the PU you made it ten feet up the line before you made the call. Remember this is a shot that the BU says he had a hard time getting out of the way from being hit, so ten feet is generous. That puts you 80' away from the bag to make this call. Now, what makes you think you can see the ball bound over or in front of the bag when it's that close better than the BU who just slid to his left further into foul territory and is right on top of it?


Tim.

Who do you think makes that call when BU is in B or C?

How does that equate to you being only 20' feet away from the play with the proper angle from A or D?


Tim.

I'm just stating the fact that the PU has to be prepared for this kind of call, anytime. It's the PU's call when the BU is in A, as it is when the BU is in B or C.

It's the PU's call. It's a GROUND BALL for goodness sake, not a fly ball. The fair/foul needs to be called at the bag, not beyond.

The PU is looking up the line, the BU is off the line.

In B or C, well duh......it's the PU's call on all fair/foul. But when BU is in A or D, the PU has all fair/foul calls up to the base. Once it either hits the base or passes the base, it becomes the BU's call. Standard mechanic ever since I can recall. Bounding balls, rolling balls, line drives, whatever. Even if the BU has to dodge the baseball, the call is still his responsibility.

Also, the BU in A has responsibility on balls that take F4 toward the 1st base line, and all plays of F3 except on pop-ups around 1st base, where the BU comes in and pivots and the PU takes the ball.

THAT is what this is all about
 

2rad4u ...

This is exactly where we need to clarify things. I've always been taught that if the ball (bounding or in the air) goes PAST the bag, U1/U3 has the call.

But my heart and my head agree with you. On a bounding ball that screams past the bag, the fair/foul call is AT the bag ... thus belonging to the UIC.

BigUmp ...

True, U1/U3 are closer on that play, but does that really mean they have a better view? Camps teach to stay back to get a better look at the big picture in most other situations, wouldn't the same apply here - giving way to the UIC to make the call?

Just throwing out ideas on a rainy day here.

Mac

Mac:

I have to say that the BU does have a much better look at a ball bounding over the bag. I would imagine that's why every camp or clinic I've been to says it the BU's call when in A or D. Granted the PU has to make this call when the BU is in B or C, but as Carl always says, coverage is a matter of sacrifices.

Tim.

In the original sitch, the Pu and Bu saw it differently...Hmmmm

Tim,

Agreed, camps/clinics/books say the call belongs to the BU ... and the sacrafice/compromise thing is always gonna be there, huh?

Speaking of what camps/clinics say ...

In a recent 3-man camp, they were teaching U3 to set up in B with R1 (except for a Lefty, to set up in C for the check-swing help), to get a better look at the swipe tag on a steal attempt. I've been using it this season, and really dig it. Our set-up looks like we're overloading the right side of the field, but it's a really good look from the B.

Yes, and the PU correctly assumed the blame for the fiasco, because it was not his call to make. The BU had pumped the ball fair, and the PU had no business overruling the call. If the BU made no call, and looked to the PU with that blank stare (signifying having no clue), then the PU could and should make the call for him. But once the BU made the call, that is the call that should stand.

But, the point is, they did not see the same thing and I guarantee the PU had a better look.

I think I have a better look at the strike zone from B or C, but I don't change my plate umpire's call when I think he missed one.

If the BU was screened out, he should not have guessed his call. He should have looked to the PU for a call in this case. All I'm saying is that you can't go around overruling your partners' calls. It looks horsesh*t.

That's why I get it straight in the pregame, and get it right on the field. I don't care who gets the glory, I just make sure we get the call right.

In the original sitch, if I'm PU, it's mine. Had it been a line drive over the bag, it's the BU's. Pretty simple, and, by the book.

Well, no that's not by the book. This is by the book.

U1 coverage:

Fair or foul calls. Rule fair or foul on any batted ball that is played on or comes to rest in front of the front edge of the base down the first-base line with U2 in position A and down the third-base line with U3 in position D. If either U2 or U3 is in the infield, rule fair or foul all the way to the foul pole on the exposed side.


U2 coverage:

Fair or foul calls. Rule fair or foul on ground balls down the first-base line from the front of the bag to the foul pole, especially on balls bounding over the bag, and on fly balls from the bag to the foul pole if in position A.

U3 coverage:


Fair or foul calls. Rule fair or foul on ground balls down the third-base line from the front of the bag to the foul pole, especially on balls bounding over the bag, and on fly balls from the bag to the foul pole if in position D.



Tim.

Not if you're working with me, you won't. The published mechanics are quite clear on this. Would you like me calling pitches from the middle of the infield?

If I am PU I am 94 feet or so away from a ball going away from me, and you are 20 feet from it coming at you. It's your call, when it breaks that plane of the front of the bag, and I go over this in pre-game, every time. Position yourself at least 10 feet farther back than F3, and there is no way he can move fast enough to block your vision of a screamer over the bag.

I think its an easier call for PU to see the plane the ball is on, but easier for the BU to see where the ball is in regard to distance from the bag (before, over it, or past it). Its just very hard to keep your eyes looking right down that line like the PU when you are skipping and hopping to your left. Thats the point that is being made here, that the PU has a better look at that aspect of fair/foul. I understand that the BU has a better look at before/past the bag. If only we could combine the two.

I know mechanics say BU's call, so I'll stick with what has been studied and proven to work the most. I understand both sides. Would be nice to have some sort of point to the PU like on a pulled foot or a swipe tag at first, but there is no time for that unfortunately. I say BU makes the call, and you go with that, unless he is being screened by F3. Then he should just glance and give a point to the PU, because he has no clue what happened.

If I am BU, F3 can not block my view of a screamer, or even a slow one or two hopper, if it's my job to see it. I ain't pointing to PU to make MY call.

DG- do you point at PU if you aren't sure of a swipe tag or a pulled foot.

Check your ego at your car, its all about getting it a) right and b) right the first time. Don't guess. If you miss it, point. I agree you shouldn't be missing it, but things happen.

I have had some absolute rockets hit in my direction, by some guys who can absolutely rake, and I still don't move until that ball passes the base and I've determined whether or not it's fair or foul. You can't be busy skipping and hopping, and get your call at the same time. Hang in there that extra fraction of a second, then you can signal fair or call and signal foul on the move while you dodge the ball. On line drives hit at you, you can still move out of the way and watch where the ball lands and get the call right.

As PWL knows, I "jelled" on this call one time. It never happened a second time.;)