Question on Awards with Tagging up

[TussAgee11]

I couldn't find this covered anywhere, so I can only assume, but I want to KNOW!

Man on 1st, less than 2 outs. Fly ball to the outfielder, caught. He throws behind R1 to try to double him off. The throw goes into dead ball territory. 2 base award.

Now, do you grant R1 a retouch at 1st as his first base and then award second? Or do you award straight to third and leave it up to him to retouch, for free. Casebook/rules references (couldn't find anything in rules) would be perferred if you have them (I don't own anything but this year's casebook, as I am a new umpire).

Thanks.

[UmpJM]

TussAgee11,

The award in this case is two bases from his "original" or TOP base - so, you award him 3B. He is still required to retouch 1B prior to going to his awarded base (and 2B on the way to 3B) or is he subject to a properly constituted appeal. You do NOT inform him of the fact that he is still required to retouch 1B.

JM

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by mrniceguy

Why does he have to retouch? The ball is dead. There is no rule that says he has to retouch.

From the original post it is apparent that the runner left early. The dead ball does not change that.

[TussAgee11]

Sorry about not being more clear.

The runner never retouched the base prior to the ball leaving play. He simply was off with the pitch, and would have been doubled up with a good throw.

I was curious if one of his awards was his retouch, but I think I've had that quesiton answered. Thanks gang.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by mrniceguy

Why does he have to retouch? The ball is dead. There is no rule that says he has to retouch.

Originally Posted by GarthB

From the original post it is apparent that the runner left early. The dead ball does not change that.

Garth,

I apologize for bothering you with this, but do you know who it was that said, "You only get one chance to make a first impression." ? I thought that being a teacher you might know.

Thanks.

JM

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by CoachJM

Garth,

I apologize for bothering you with this, but do you know who it was that said, "You only get one chance to make a first impression." ? I thought that being a teacher you might know.

Thanks.

JM

Many people have said it. Who said it first is a mystery that may never be solved. Various people have been credited including Winston Churchill and Dale Carnegie. There is a claim that it is an ancient Arabian proverb.

We do know that Mark Twain wrote a variation in the 1800's: "You never get a second chance to make a good first impression." Until I see it writing by another author and dated prior to Twain, he gets my nod.

[UmpJM]

Originally Posted by GarthB

Many people have said it. Who said it first is a mystery that may never be solved. Various people have been credited including Winston Churchill and Dale Carnegie. There is a claim that it is an ancient Arabian proverb.

We do know that Mark Twain wrote a variation in the 1800's: "You never get a second chance to make a good first impression." Until I see it writing by another author and dated prior to Twain, he gets my nod.

Garth,

Thanks. Mr. Clemens works for me too.

JM

[Justme]

Originally Posted by mrniceguy

Good question. Answer: 2 bases TOP from last entitled base.

Did I get it right?

No you didn't. It's 2 bases from the Time of Throw (TOT) not Time of Pitch (TOP), in this situation. TOP is when F1 delivers the pitch and TOT is when the fielder throws the ball in. Also, it's not 2 bases from the last entitled base, it's 2 bases from the last base legally acquired prior to the throw.

The runner has to re-touch the base too.

[mcrowder]

To extend this, if the runner on 1st had passed SECOND base when this ball was uncorked toward first, and then into DBT, the runner gets HOME (and it's up to him to know he has to go retouch). Two bases from TIME OF THROW.

[Justme]

Originally Posted by PWL

Go up and read my earlier posts. I said two bases from time of throw from last legally obtained base. Runner has not legally obtained 2B without tagging up. Two base award from 1B, thus his award would be 3B. Runner must go back and re-tag 1B, touch 2B and 3B. If he does not do this defense is entitled to appeal, which must be done properly.

Just that simple.

Just for the sake of discussion let me ask these questions.

Since a missed base or failure to tag up is an appeal how could you justify awarding 3B and not home in this situation? Wouldn't your base award indicate that the runner didn't tag up? Especially since the offensive coach would probably ask you why his player didn't get 2 bases from 2B.

If the failure to tag up isn't appealed then it didn't happen right?

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by PWL

I'm not the base coach. Remember he still has to retreat by touching 2B on his way back to tag up.

I take it you're not familiar with the "last time by" concept.

Originally Posted by PWL

They can even appeal this. A dead ball doesn't release the runner from properly running the bases. If the defense doesn't appeal it by putting the ball in play for example, they lost their chance.

Since when did the defense start putting the ball back into play?

You cannot call the runner out for failure to properly tag. The defense is responsible for making a proper appeal. If they don't. Then your right, it didn't happen.[/QUOTE]

Okay, so then the award should have been to home until a proper appeal.


Tim.

[Durham]

Originally Posted by TussAgee11

I couldn't find this covered anywhere, so I can only assume, but I want to KNOW!

Man on 1st, less than 2 outs. Fly ball to the outfielder, caught. He throws behind R1 to try to double him off. The throw goes into dead ball territory. 2 base award.

Now, do you grant R1 a retouch at 1st as his first base and then award second? Or do you award straight to third and leave it up to him to retouch, for free. Casebook/rules references (couldn't find anything in rules) would be perferred if you have them (I don't own anything but this year's casebook, as I am a new umpire).

Thanks.

R1 must retouch or he will be called out on appeal. Everone in the ball park sees him trying to get back to 1st in most cases. The award is 2 bases from TOT, first play by an out fielder. The award is 3rd base. I don't quiet understand the confusion.

[BigUmp56]

Originally Posted by Durham

R1 must retouch or he will be called out on appeal. Everone in the ball park sees him trying to get back to 1st in most cases. The award is 2 bases from TOT, first play by an out fielder. The award is 3rd base. I don't quiet understand the confusion.

The confusion would be whether or not giving the two base award from first base would tip the defense off that they have an appeal. We all know he would be out on appeal if he fails to re-touch, but what if the defense doesn't appeal? He's considered to have obtained his advance base as soon as he reaches it until properly appealed.


Tim.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by PWL

Go up and read my earlier posts. I said two bases from time of throw from last legally obtained base. Runner has not legally obtained 2B without tagging up. Two base award from 1B, thus his award would be 3B. Runner must go back and re-tag 1B, touch 2B and 3B. If he does not do this defense is entitled to appeal, which must be done properly.

Just that simple.

Not correct. Runner HAS legally obtained 2nd base - was there an illegal act here? No, just bad baserunning... not ILLEGAL baserunning.

[mcrowder]

Originally Posted by Durham

R1 must retouch or he will be called out on appeal. Everone in the ball park sees him trying to get back to 1st in most cases. The award is 2 bases from TOT, first play by an out fielder. The award is 3rd base. I don't quiet understand the confusion.

I think the confusion is my fault, as there are two plays here.

If the runner was between 1st and 2nd when the OF threw the ball, as in the OP, the award is 3rd base. If the runner was on 2nd or between 2nd and 3rd when the OF threw the ball, as in my corollary, the award is home. In either case, the runner can retouch any bases left early or missed bases, but we are not to do anything to tip anyone off that there was a base that needs to be retouched.