R1, base hit to the outfield, i believe the plate ump should cover R1 into 3rd while letting the base ump know same. does the same coverage apply on an infield ball where the runner may have been stealing and is trying to go 1st to third on an infield out or infield error? how about R2 only on an infield out - he waits until the ball is thrown to F3 and then breaks for 3rd. i think PBUC states that base ump has both infield calls, but why wouldn't the plate ump help out in those other situations?? thanks.

BU has plays in the infield when the ball does not leave the infield.

i understand what the book says, but WHY wouldn't the plate ump help out in those other situations?? a base hit to the outfield gives the base ump no call - yet the plate ump helps at 3rd. why not help at 3rd on infield plays.

i dont see a reason to

then why does PU help on a ball to the outfield?

Because the BU has all plays on the trailing runner if both the ball and runner are going to third base. If the BU is taking the ball and runner to third, who would make the call on a snap throw behind the BR?

The base ump should handle all plays that stay in the infield. Old school style.

At various times, that has been the mechanic. (The "standard" mecahnic has varied between giving BU or PU the call, with the "advanced" mechanic varying between giving the other the call.) It might still be for FED.

You can come up with non-TWPs for either coverage where the "other coverage" would have been better. It's just a compromise of the two-umpire system.

ggk
 

Sorry for the “long version” answer to your question but here goes:

The “second call” in the infield has been changed several times since 1974.

There are two separate mechanics that hae been used over the years.

Mechanic #1:

R1 and the batter runner is retired before reaching first base safely and R1 continues to advance from 1st base, past 2nd base and heads for 3rd base.

Until 1974 the official “standard mechanic” was that the base umpire would make the call at first base and then using the same basic mechanic that is used to cover a steal of second base by R1 would move across the diamond and make the second call at third base.

Until 1974 the official “advanced mechanic” was that the base umpire would make the call at first base and the Plate umpire would rotate down and take the second call at third base. The Base Umpire would then rotate towards the plate and would have any call that could happen at the plate if R1 was not put out at third and tried to advance.

Starting in 1975 the titles of these two mechanics were reversed.

In 1982 the titles of the mechanics reverted to their original positions.

By 1984 the base umpire no longer rotated home. The plate umpire was responsible for the runner at third and was directed to take any additional play at the plate.

The NAPL recognized in 1995 that the mechanic that took the plate umpire to third was causing problems. Plate umpires were leaving the plate area to beat the runner to third and were not completing their responsibilities concerning the batter runner with views of swipe tags, a defensive players not keeping their feet on the base and running lane violations.

There is now only one accepted mechanic in the NAPL and NCAA books (Oregon, with the NFHS approval, does not use Federation mechanics so I do not know how the NFHS handles this call). The base umpire covers both calls that occur in the R1 advancing plays. If an umpire believes in “angle over distance” then this is the obvious acceptable mechanic.

When the Plate Umpire assists on R1 advancing on a base hit the fact that there is a trailing runner allows the base umpire to not have to over commit to third and have a secondary play occur at second base.

We know that two man umpiring is base on compromise. The people that have developed the mechanics have studied plays and positioning for thousands of games. They have attempt to help cover plays with the best of compromises.

tim c
thanks for the excellent and comprehensive response. i appreciate the long version. obviously this is a scenerio that has been debated for many years.
this board is a great source of info.
G

Thanks Tim, much appreciated read. Certainly all makes sense, except one thing. I know this stuff has been studied, so I'm not challenging that. We all agree angle over distance. So wouldn't a tough tag play at third be easily called by the PU standing at the plate for a swipe tag/runner's lane/pulled foot at 1st for that play, then take 3 or 4 steps towards third for that play? Seems like the BU is really locked out of that play at third, depending on where the grounder is hit of course. Certainly a groundball to F5 would be the toughest for the BU, as he has to stay behind the pitcher's mound, and can't get a good angle on the potential play at third.

Thanks again for the info, I guess I'm just wondering if this has been thought about in the light I bring it up. I'm sure it has, just wondering where my thinking is wrong here.


I am curious what NFHS says about this.

Not a good angle!
 

I really don't understand the question but from the plate PU is straight lined for the tag at third. There would be no way he could tell if F5 tags him or not especially if R2 slides on the outfield side of the bag.

BU has a great angle for the tag, and can see right through the fielder and the runner etc.,

But, we still like for our PU to take third on the second throw. Its easy for the PU to move toward the mound to see the plays at first and then with a few quick steps be in perfect position for the throw to third which is always going to be a developing play.

As a BU I can cover both, but if my PU calls me off I don't have a problem with that either.

I think that might answer the question but not sure.

Thanks
David

This kind of statement worries me.
 

GGK,
The base umpire absolutely has a call. And partners that feel there is no call absolutely worry me.

The base umpire is absolutely responsible for the runner touching first base (one call) and ensuring there is no obstruction with F3 (another call), and possibly any subsequent play made on the batter runner at either first or second base (another call).

Agreeably, on any given play, those calls may not need to be made, but they are absolutely there and they are absolutely the responsibility of the base umpire.

The casual partner that watches the filght of the ball and might wander towards the infield, never button-hooking or paying attention to the Batter-Runner is going to create some major problems when any of those calls NEED TO BE MADE and the base umpire has his back to the play/call.

Two man mechanics are difficult enough without one of the partners deciding that "Well for this play, we're going to use ONE MAN MECHANICS." (Because I don't know my responsibilities and I'm too lazy to do my job.)

In my district, I like to say that the base umpire has the LAST RUNNER ALL THE WAY TO THIRD - and if there is only one runner (BR), he is the LAST runner.

Re: Hmmm,
 

I think you're right on the money Tim, probably regional.

The more I've read the last few years the more I've seen going toward the BU taking both, but in our area they still like the PU to take the second play if necessary.
I guess we still prescribe to the "distance does make a difference" mentality.


But I have noticed that the colleges and JUCO's have gone more to the mechanics like you mentioned. I'm sure we'll trickle down to that down the road, but for now ...

THanks
David

David,

I know a lot of people are going to say this is wrong but, like to take the play at 3rd as the plate umpire in foul territory like in three man. That way you can read the ball, runnner and field and umpire the play.

The association that I work high school ball for (California Baseball Umpires Association) says to handle it this way:

#1

2-Man Mechanics
Runner on 1B - Ball hit to infielder
Base umpire takes play at 2nd & 1st

Note: Follow flight of ball; do not turn head too quickly after play at 2nd.

Watch for possible runner interference. Plate umpire should watch play at 2nd before and after pivot man has released the ball. Plate umpire is responsible for interference call after the ball has been released.



#2
2-Man Mechanics
Runner on 2B - Ball hit to infielder and runner attempts to advance to 3rd.
Base umpire will call tag play on runner.

Note: Plate umpire will watch touching of bases by batter-runner for possible appeal play.

Also, if base umpire has the responsibility for a possible trapped ball, the plate umpire must watch for legal tag ups and assist the base umpire on appeal plays.



#3
2-Man Mechanics
Runner on 2B - Ball hit to infielder and throw goes to 1st base

Plate umpire must take play at 3rd base.

Note: If ball is overthrown at 3rd, the plate umpire umpire must cover home plate in the event of a possible play.

Our HS association teaches us this coverage when working in 3-man system (runner on first): The plate umpire moves up the 3B line in foul territory and if the runner continues (if a play develops at 3B) he should cut inside to watch the play. The 1B umpire covers home and 3B umpire remains at 2B.

With a runner at 2nd base the plate umpire stays home

Is this what you other FED umpires do (3-man mechanics only)?

How would the plate umpire be in the line of fire be any different than the BU? This is not just a California mechanic. This is a NF mechanic as I read it.

Peace

I like your idea but we are told that the PU hauls a$$ (staying inside) and get as far (close to home) as possible remembering (of course) angle over distance.

How nice. What manual is this?

Normal umpiring mechanics have the BU taking the catch (in the cone), tag, and play at third.

My FED manual doesn't agree with yours either. We work the cone.

With a runner on 2B the BU is in the C position.

The PU has the fly ball down either base line.

The BU has the ball from the left fielder to the right fielder.

I throw that piece of junk in the trash second it arrives. My partners work CCA or PRO mechanics. Why would a plate umpire come up to help with a single runner?

Tee gave you an excellent response. Ultimately it boils down to what your organization subscribes to and probably more important who you are working with.

I can tell you from my experiences that my mechanics in HS change daily depending upon whom I'm working with. I worked with an "old" Vet who had the dish and told me under no uncertain terms. "Son I have Home Plate - Get it" meaning bases one through 3 were mine.

A good friend of mine joined the ECAC (Eastern Collegiate Athletic Conference) and as TEE mentioned College wants the BU to take both calls, however, at the collegiate level you have a group of umpires who for the most part are on the same page and will hustle into position. HS is different depending upon your partner.

In Summary: Do what your association wants you to and know who your partner is.

Pete Booth

Both ways work
 

I've been in groups that have done it both ways. I personally like for PU to take the runner to third. It gives two men for a possible run down etc.,

And its easy for BU to go home on an overthrow.

But it also works well with BU taking the runner to 3rd.

Not a big deal unless you have a partner who is out of shape. (g)

Thanks
David

Pregame
 

Hello all,

New to the site, but not to the game. First post ...

I work HS and am a rookie JUCO umpire. Great discussion about UIC covering 3B on this thread.

My 2-cents-worth on the subject ...

If we get into a habit of having a good pregame with our partner(s), this can easily be discussed and agreed upon before we step foot on the field: "Okay, with a runner on first, I'll get up the line and take him at third if the hit leaves the infield ... otherwise, you've got both plays." This leaves UIC in position to help with a pulled foot, swipe tag, overthrow, etc ...

Understood, different associations may have a set way to handle this situation, but I think a good pregame can cover a lot of the gray areas ... and this is one of them that needs to be covered with partner(s).

I agree that 2-man (and even 3-man in some rotations) puts us in a compromising position, but with some hustle and knowledge of shortcuts, we can make the call at 1B and then take a few steps to get into position to make an educated guess on the play at 3B.

Mac

David: I was taught that PU has the plate after an overthrow at 3B. PU returns to the plate in fair territory (ball is in foul territory) and makes the call at HP. This mechanic leaves BU where he is in case of a play at 2B.

I believe this is the standard PBUC mechanic.

For the record, it is not a "California" mechanic. It is the mechanic of one association, named "California Baseball Umpires Association."

There are hundreds of associations in California. The HS association in San Diego, for example, uses PBUC (pro school) mechanics, with the exception of the addition of the NF Delayed Dead Ball mechanic.

This is what was taught at the last umpire clinic I attended in SoCal. I was told that this is the mechanic for FED, NCAA & PBUC (wording directly from the PBUC Manual for the Two-Umpire System), this is the mechanic I use.

Fly Balls and Line Drives to the Outfield – Responsibilities

With a runner on 1st base only, fly balls (or line drives) from F7 straight in all the way to F9 straight in belong to the BU. Fly balls (or line drives) where F7 moves any distance toward his right belong to the PU. Likewise, fly balls (or line drives) where F9 moves any distance towards his left belong to the PU.

Section 3.4 Base Hits to the Outfield; First-to-Third Responsibilities

With a runner on 1st base only, on a clean hit to the outfield the BU will step up, turn with the ball, and back up only two or three steps towards the mound to open up to the playing field. From this area he is in good position for observing his responsibilities and moving into the proper position as the plays develop. When the BU has multiple runner responsibilities, if no play develops after the base hit, the BU should maintain his basic position in this working area and not be drawn unnecessarily towards a base without a potential play developing there.

The BU has the responsibility of the touch at 2nd base by the runner from 1st as well as the touch at 1st base by the batter-runner. The PU will come out from behind home plate in the direction of 3rd base, keeping approximately three to six feet into foul territory as he moves down the 3rd base line. It is suggested that as the PU leaves the cutout area at home plate, if he observes that a possibility exists of a play at 3rd on the runner originally on 1st, that the PU make an initial communication to his partner, “I’ve got 3rd if he comes,” alerting his partner to the possibility of a 1st-to-3rd play.

When the PU sees that there is a good possibility for a play at 3rd, as previously mentioned he will communicate to the BU, “I’ve got 3rd, I’ve got 3rd,” as he moves into the cutout at 3rd. At that point he should immediately get into position for the play at 3rd, obtaining proper distance and angle for the play. He should be completely set at the cutout and waiting for the play (ball and runner), NOT timing his arrival so that he is getting set as the play is about to occur.