I know there have been changes regarding BU in 2-man mechanics and when he sets up in the B position or C position. Can someone give me a current, solid FED guideline of when BU should be in the C position?

I try not to read the FED recommendations on positions. I would be in C with runner on 3B only, runners on 2nd and 3rd, runners on 1st and 2nd, and bases loaded. For runners on 1st and 3rd I would be in B, and I think the FED manual shows C for this situation and that's probably the main difference between FED and others (CCA and PBUC).

For me, the same as DG, except I prefer C for all 1st and 3rd situations.

[Edited by SanDiegoSteve on Mar 16th, 2006 at 09:24 PM]

San Diego County Baseball Umpires Association mechanic: B or C, umpire's preference.

1986 Pro School (Harry's and Joe's): C. B had yet to even be discussed in those days. I have a hard time in B, probably because I started out working C originally, and being an old dog, a new trick just didn't catch on.

What do you recommend for R2 only?

C

That's what I use. Thanks -

Some states put BU in C only when a steal of third is possible (i.e., R1,R2 or R2 only). Otherwise they put BU in B.

So, to the original question -- we (someone) can give the "pure FED" answer -- but that might not be what's used in your state / area.

With R2, doesn't C interfere with the baserunner's line of sight with the pitcher?

If I'm in R2's line of sight with the pitcher when I'm in C...

A) he's hung out to dry cuz he's got a huge lead and

B) If he can't see over me (hands on knees) he's not old enough to be leading off.

Originally posted by bob jenkins
[/B][/QUOTE]


I agree with this mechanic. I'm only in C when r2 can steal 3rd. In all other cases the likelihood of a play at 3rd is much less than at any other base, therefore B position gives you the best look.

if this is the case, take a step in towards home plate. problem solved.

Re: Hmm,
 

I did a quick check on 2 states IL and NH that have mechanics available online and both teach and endorse pos b in all cases, with men on base, except r1 and R2, or r2 only.

Perhaps they are rogue states teaching a bad mechanic that hasn't been tested, but it makes sense to me. If you're playing the per centages this mechanic puts you in the best position and after all isn't that what we are striving for?

[Edited by NIump50 on Mar 17th, 2006 at 01:16 PM]

Runner on 1st: B
Standard

Runner on 2nd: C
Standard

Runner on 3rd: B
Puts me closer to 1st (where the play is most likely)
Calling a “Pick-Play” at 3rd is no different from
calling a “Pick-Play” at 1st from C

Runner on 1st & 2nd: C
Standard

Runner on 1st & 3rd: B
Puts me in position for a play at 1st, 2nd,
or double play at 1st & 2nd
(where the play is most likely)

Runner on 1st, 2nd & 3rd: B
Puts me in position for a play at 1st, 2nd,
or double play (where the play is most likely)

These are the preferred 2-Man mechanics of our High School association, and I prefer them.

I think Papa C. has a rhyme about being in C, but I couldnÂ’t find it at the moment.

Something like;

B oh B, how I hate to be in C !

Re: Hmmm,
 

If you're implying that anyone that uses the mechanic I sugested is a bad umpire it's a shame you have to go there instead of discussing the pros and cons of both.

I simply stated the facts as I see them.

1. At least two states endorse and teach this mechanic. I'm sure there are many more I simply have not done the research.

2. The per centages work in favor of this mechanic.

If you disagree with any of these 2 statements I think it would be an interesting discussion.

Perhaps the mechanic I'm using is not as effective as the old style. Could you please point me to the research and testing you previously refered to so I can better evaluate the two mechanics.
Thanks

For 1st and 3rd, 3rd only, or bases loaded, I still prefer C, because that was the way it was taught when I learned.

The pickoff at 3rd from B is not the same as the pickoff at 1st from C. The angle you get with a runner returning to 3rd is vastly different than one returning to 1st. If the runner at first was diving back from the home plate side of the first base line, then your statement would be correct. The best angle to call a runner going back into 3rd is in C. All you have to do is turn to your right, and you have an almost perfect angle (very close to a 90 degree angle). From B, the angle is more closed (far less than an ideal 90 degrees).

I understand why many people prefer B. The argument that pickoffs at 3rd are rare, and that it's more likely that a play will be at first base is a valid argument. I personally have no problem getting from C to the proper position to make all calls at 2nd or 1st. I would have no chance on a pickoff at 3rd to get a good angle from B.

Nlump50, starting in B with a runner on 2nd only, how do you call the steal of third? You need to have an angle closer to the 3rd base line, and from B you just can't get there.

From C, all you need to do is run a few steps in and toward the line on an angle, and you are a)at a good angle to call the play, and b)much closer to the play, and less likely to have a coach in your face asking why you were so far from the play).

SanDiegoSteve

I think you are correct that the pick play at 3rd is not exactly the same as at 1st.

The play at 3rd is easily made from B or C, because the runner is moving perpendicular to the umpire, so he does not block the action.

Whereas, a pick play at 1st, we need to be able to look more downward on the play to see everything, because the runner is somewhat between us and the low tag. Being closer makes it much easier.

I have called these plays from both positions, and I feel much more comfortable making them using the positioning I posted.

Runner on 2nd only or 1st and second I'm in C.
I agree with all your angle concerns, but I'm confused on one point.

You said "I personally have no problem getting from C to the proper position to make all calls at 2nd or 1st....."

Tim implied that you can get from C to B on a play at first, is the proper position you are referring to B?
I don't think that is possible. I'm not saying you don't have a look, but it is not as good as B.
Here's my reasoning:
Runner on third no out, ground shot to F5, runner faking to home, not unusual. BU in C can't move toward B because you're watching for play at 3rd. F5 checks runner even fients a throw, BU has to be focused on third until F5 turns to first. When F5 turns to first BU has about 1.5 seconds, or less to get into position for the call.
Now you're making a banger call at first from across the diamond.
Personally, I'd rather be closer to first with a better angle for that play than to have the better angle at third for the rare occasions a pickoff that direction is close.
If I am misrepresenting this play please correct me.

Nlump50,

I see your point. However, on the play you are describing, the most important runner is the one closest to home plate. You need to keep all your focus on this runner until F5 actually throws to first. When you see that F5 is now going to really throw to first, you get a few steps, stop, set, see it, call it. Angle over distance on any force play. I can call a force play virtually from anywhere in the ballpark. It is the tag play that can get tricky if you don't get a good look at it.

B and C are not the positions we are to make our calls from. They are starting positions only. When I'm in C, and a ground ball to F6, I start straight in toward the mound, pivot with the play, gain ground toward 1st, and make the call from the first base side of the diamond. So, saying that you make calls from B and C is not accurate, unless you are just standing stationary and not hustling.

I don't disagree that the tag at third is of utmost importance, however it is a rare occurance. Both mechanics have poitives and negatives. It will be interesting to see if the new mechanic continues to gain momentum.
Thank you for not blatently pointing out my F5 braincramp.

I don't disagree that the tag at third is of utmost importance, however it is a rare occurance. Both mechanics have poitives and negatives. It will be interesting to see if the new mechanic continues to gain momentum.
Thank you for not blatently pointing out my F5 braincramp.

I will point out the double post, however. :D

I am glad I don't work in IL or NH were umpires are forced to work in positions not endorsed by CCA, PBUC, or Fed for that matter. Sounds like they want to sacrifice the call for consistency of positioning.

Somebody posted this visual/picture last year that always helped me remember the positions to be in. I think one position wasn't textbook, but it has always worked for me.

You in B when the runners are in the following positions:

_____1st

__1st___3rd

1st__2nd__3rd


In all others you are in position C (except with no runners on, obviously). The pyramid visual helps one remember it for some reason. (Ignore the underlines, they are just for spacing so that it looks like a pyramid)

Well, now I'm curious. What positions are you referring to that you're glad you're not forced to work in?

I'm sure he means "B" with R3, R2 and R3, or bases loaded.

Forgive my lack of experience on this but . . . .
does it make a difference if the pitcher is right or left handed for your location?

Or if you have a right or left handed batter?

Thank you.
I have seen umpires move from B to C when a batter comes up batting left handed. I understood what they were doing, but didn't understand why they thought it was OK, if that's not how we are supposed to position ourselves.
I appreciate the response.

A LH pitcher is an excellent reason to follow CCA and PBUC mechanic to be in B rather than FED mechanic to be in C with runners on 1st and 3rd.

Why? What the heck is the difference?

Twenty feet.

oh well that solves it

The only reason I can see for B in this case (and sometimes I will go to B in this case) is when you have a crafty lefty with a close-to-a-balk-move reputation, or some weird motion. Being in B gives you a little better look at the 45 degree angle/step toward first aspect. It also lets you see the front edge/free foot (FED), or back edge/free foot (OBR) relationship for the purposes of calling balks.

All that being said, I still usually prefer C.

Our association always taught that the plate guy has the primary responsibility on the pitcher from the waist up, and the BU for the waist down, with both umpires calling all balks they see.

Saw that today!
 

I had a game today and one of our college umpires was moving from B to C depending on the batter. I didn't ask him about it, but it was really stupid.

There is no reason to move.

As far as B, C, I try to stay in B at all times if possible. That is tried and tested for 25 years of calling all levels of baseball.

I see guys that prefer C and if I work in an association that wants me to work that way I will.

But I don't think its best and I don't teach it that way.

I find I have the best angle on a steal at 3rd from B and it keeps me closer to first.

I see too many guys in C making the call at first from position C. They incorrectly stay put and don't move closer to first, or move to get the best angle possible. Ball hit to F5, the umpire in C has a horrible angle on the throw unless he moves. Same with ball hit to F6, or if F6 is charging a short hop.

Position C can be a good position, but as with other positions, if not worked on and used properly it can cause lots of problems.

And of course that's just my take on it.

Thansk
David

Re: Saw that today!
 

I don't see how you can have a better angle of a steal of 3rd from around B, than from busting in and toward the line from C. Yes, if you just stand there and don't move from C, you aren't going to be in proper position. When I say I prefer C, it is as starting position only. If you don't hustle from any starting position you won't be in the right place for your calls.

If you are in B with a runner stealing third, you are a long way from the tag play at third, and why do you feel the need to be closer to first base? The only play is the steal of third. If R2 is running on the pitch, you don't go with him do you? You wait to see the play develop. If the batter takes the pitch or swings and misses, you move in and toward the line on an angle and let F2's throw turn you into the play. If the batter hits the ball, then you don't go with the runner, but react to the batted ball. I guess I just don't see why you want to hang around B if a solo runner is stealing 3rd.

You need to be able to read and react to each situation as it occurs. A sharply hit ball will require different movement than a slow roller to the same fielder does. The trick is staying out of the fielder's throwing lanes and his way in general, while getting good angles and distance for your calls.

Like you said, if you don't hustle and work hard at proper positioning, C can be a problem. Like in your example of making the call at first from C. You're right, that is incorrect and lazy positioning. But if you've spent your whole career using both B and C, know how to hustle, get good angles, and have got it down pat, it works just fine.

Re: Re: Saw that today!
 

And that's the main problem that I've seen with guys in C. Most are lazy and end up out of position more than not. There are very few plays at third, (5% I believe was the latest that I've seen) and many more plays at first. I like for my umpires to be closer to the play at first and its almost impossible to be out of position in B.

As far as the steal at third, you are just as close to the call from B as you are C. Like I said, its personal preference, but from B you see the whole play develop, from C you don't see the whole play, its impossible with your back to the runner.

I think you said it best though, the good umpire will do fine from either spot. The problem is with the many not so good umpires. (g)

thanks
David

David,

How do you figure to be "just as close" from B on a steal of third? From C, I can tell when the runner is going. I peek over my right shoulder, as I was taught. I'm only going to get 3 or 4 steps at best, on an angle in and toward the line. But I end up about 20 feet from 3rd. From B, you are still only going to get a few steps, and be 50+ feet from the play. That isn't just as close.

I have never heard of the mechanic for 2nd base only in B. I have never seen anyone position themselves in B with 2nd base only.

There were a few umpires back around 1990 in my association who tried to get everybody to use B with runners at 1st and 2nd, and that went over like a lead balloon. That idea was quickly scrapped, and I haven't heard of it since.

This is crazy!
 

I dont usually waste my time with such comments, but just thought this was strange.

You are in C, (where you can look over your right shoulder? and see the runner going), yet you can take three steps from there and be 20 ft. from third base??

Not possible!

That again states my point - there are so many umpires who think that I'm in C so I'm close to third!

You are further from third unless you are in Smitty land, in C position but to the right of the F6.

I'm done with this rediculous drivel.

Thanks
David

I just thought I'd add my 2 cents-

Personally, I think the NFHS Manual is terrible... there are many inconsistancies (what defines a 'Trouble Ball'), and some of the responsibilities are questionable at best (UIC taking calls at third with no runners on).
Lastly, the diagrams in the NFHS Manuel look like they were drawn in the dirt with a stick, then photoed and printed in the book.

First off buddy, it's ridiculous, not rediculous.

Second, it's not drivel. If you are in B with a runner at 2nd base only, you are in the wrong position. I don't care how long you've been doing it.

Third, don't talk to me like that. To borrow a line from Sal, this ain't my first rodeo either. Don't go around insulting people, it's not nice.

Fourth, My B and C are both lined up with the edges of the mound, just as I was taught right out of a pro school manual. I don't stay there to make my calls. I do this uncommon thing called hustling!!! So, no, I'm not out there in "Smitty Land," which if you are in B with 2nd only, I would consider you in.

Fifth, from C, I hustle at an angle in and toward the foul line as I've already stated. How do you figure I'm not closer to third? To say otherwise is incorrect. I may be off quite a bit with the 20 feet, okay? I'm terrible at estimating distance. That's why I can't putt worth a damn. Maybe I'm 30 feet from the play, I'm still much closer, with a superior look (angle and distance) at the play than anything you can come up with starting in B. I also probably take more than 3 or 4 steps (I did say that, not "3"), perhaps 5 or 6, I haven't really counted (Im too busy hustling), so that was probably not an accurate assessment on my part.

Sixth, I was taught (by several pro school grads from both Harry's and Joe Brinkman's) to glance over my right shoulder to see if the runner is going. If he starts, by the time the catcher catches the pitch, I can glance over my shoulder and see the runner. Usually I can hear the runner's footsteps behind me. I can also hear fielders say, "he's going!" So there are plenty of ways to know the runner is stealing 3rd without resorting to starting on the 1st base side of the diamond.

Seventh, please tell me in which umpire's manual you can find where they teach the mechanic to work in B with a runner at 2nd base only. I say it doesn't exist. Prove me wrong.

....and this adds to this thread how?


FED-haters aren't exactly an endangered species around here.

Personally, I make this call from the stands. I get to rest, chat with MILFs, and finish my hot dog.

My evals stink, but hey, playoffs are a big ole time-eater anyway :D

Okay!
 

Its always interesting and entertaining to read how umpires throw in things like I was taught by ...... who happened to graduate from a pro school etc., )

When I went to school many moons ago they taught us what was accepted at the time but the bottom line was do what your association does.

I've been teaching to stay in B since 1990 and our group still does. Might be the only one in the country, but it works great and I don;t have to worry about angles etc.,

From B all its takes is a few quick steps and you have the perfect angle for any call at third.

I've read it from Carl that I believe he's advocating staying in B period, and I believe he included such in his Mechanics for the 20th century etc.,

I might be wrong, but I know what works and that's what matters the most. Now when I call with my college guys, they like me to change, but since I get the calls right they leave me alone.

Thanks
David

funny
 

Now that's funny!

Thanks
David

There are a few of us that worki in the Land of Lincoln and I can't find any material that shows that we advocate unorthodox positioning. Of course, each umpire develops unique mechanics to suit his or her limitations - not to bolster their strengths. I know guys who go down to the knee for out calls on steals and routine plays at first. I laugh at them, but know them!

Illinois may have some odd personalities (yes, my hand is up) and you may see some NCAA mechanics on a HS field occasionally, but by and large the mechanics are universally accepted. That seems like a broad brush you are painting with - take heed to stay in the lines.

Well, here's my opinion. When Nick Bremigan, Jim McKean, and Gerry Crawford created the current 3-man system, people like the ones you've guoted said: "Hell's wrong with them? We've been doing it this way for decades. We know what's best. They should just do what we've proved." The innovation: With runners on first and third, bring U3 into the infield so each half of a double play is called by a different umpire.

As late as the mid 80s, on ESPN I saw three-man crews in Florida positioning themselves this way: R1, R3: U3 in D, U1 in B. Now, anyone who would suggest that would be laughed at, just as the Umpire Schools laughed in 1973.

In 1988, I first suggested in <i>Referee</i> that the umpire belonged in B with R3, R3/R2, or R3/R2/R1. I've been practicing it every since. The outcome: I miss fewer plays, and coaches say: Hey, how'd you get so close to that play at first? I'm glad to see that in some states, this eminently sane positioning is catching on. I always knew it would. All that's required is for one or two powerful umpires in an association to try it out.

In the Childress library, there is a long article (Part II of Mechanics, 2000) that explains the geometry and dynamics involved.

Let me close with this: When I was at the 3-day Evans camp in Ft. Worth, I was told the Gerry Davis stance was a joke. Everybody knows there are but two positions: heel/toe and heel/toe/heel/toe.

You quoted someone as saying: "We wonder why umpires think they know more than we do and use their own mechanics and positions when we have tested these things and know what works best for all?" For "all"?

That's an amazing display of a closed mind.

Oh, those are the same guys who refuse to use my A, B, C designations and perfer: With a runner on first, move into the infield about 15-20 feet behind the rubber, with your right foot on a line drawn from the plate...."

Remember, the experts once thought the earth was flat. <i>Edit comment: I have no idea what "throught" (my original word here) means. But Juulie Downs, one of my basketball writers, wrote about a "kerfuffle." In .12 seconds, Google found 1,050,000 mentions of that word on the world wide web. I was an ignorant of it as I was "throught."</i>

I just found out for the first time this past weekend that the pro schools don't use A, B, C. I guess if they don't invent it, they don't use it.

Is it really that difficult?
 

Baseball is one of the easiest sport to navigate from an officiating standpoint and we have people that claim one way is so terrible than the other. My God, we are talking about standing in a certain place for a short period of time. How hard can it be? If you do not like where you stand, stand somewhere else. All I need to know as your partner is what you are going to cover and when. The NF mechanics are the very basic so that those that did not go to pro school and debate all the possibilities can happen on a baseball field. In Illinois we use mostly NF mechanics with some modifications. It is not that hard to adjust to or deal with. Half the time I do not know if I am using a "NF" mechanic or an "NCAA" mechanic. I stand where I am told and I hustle to where I need to be. After all where you start has little or nothing to do with where you will end up.

The responses on this topic just goes to show that baseball umpires have too much time on their hands and worry about things that really are not that serious to worry about.

Peace

Pro Advice from Papa C
 

Yeah, I lost some good money at one of them CLINIQUE places. The clinicians kept insisting that I work the PRO-slot. I kept telling them I hated calling the outside pitch from the PRO-slot. I felt vulnerable to COACHES ridicule. They kept telling me I needed to lower my big fat *** and balance it with my big fat belly by leaning forward to get a better ANGLE. I kept telling them that I couldn't physically do that. It was worse than the scissors. They laughed and my kness are shot from trying. I love the vibrating tickle I feel when I contract and extend both knees now. Never felt it before the SLOT.

I took a shot in the cup and many to the left leg while in the slot. Thank GOD the 70-mph pitches were thrown by 15 year olds who were trying to imitate REAL pitchers. I had a partner who took an 80-mph shot to the cup too. He went down to the ground immediately. I don't think a steel cup would have helped him then. He did not appreciate the COACH who walked up and asked him if he was okay, either. I decided right then and there that I would never stand in the SLOT like a TOUGH GUY. I moved my fat *** and big belly behind the catcher's left shoulder. I stood a little higher and felt my knees praised GOD afterwards. From then on, there was never any thought of moving back to the slot.

I didn't know any better at the time because most PRO-umps do offer well-intentioned advice. But if anyone ever tells a NEWBIE to work the SLOT, I'll have a word or more to say about it. When I first started reading this website, I marveled how my positioning was being discussed all over the web as the GD stance. Well if that is who they want to give credit to after 100 years of baseball, I'm NOT going to disagree with the name. Things change over time and they change for a reason. With respect, who am I to argue? Papa C made the right call here too.

Sure it is.
 

Standing in one place for an hour is really hard work. Maybe that is why an Eric Gregg can be at the highest level. Really hard to do that. :rolleyes:

Peace

thats your decision. the other posters on this site like to better themselves game after game, season after season. many of us also try and move to higher levels of umpiring. its not a matter of being a "TOUGH GUY," its a matter of doing the job how it is to be done. going against tried and tested mechanics is not something i'd recommend, especially to a newcomer.

however, SAump is a troll and again im falling into his trap. i wouldnt mind if he was deleted.

How many baseball games have you ever worked that lasted an hour? What level was this, T-Ball? Why make such a remark? - mick

I just got done working 3 games on Saturday, one-man mechanics, from 9 AM to after 5PM. I'm sunburned like a freakin' lobster, and could barely walk from my back/hip Saturday night. Now that's work.

Standing in one place? If that is how you umpire, I feel real sorry for the teams that get you. I hustle my butt off when I do baseball, or any other sport. I used to do 3 and 4 football games on a Saturday, working the flanks on Pop Warner games where all you do is sprint back and forth down the field on 90 yard touchdown plays all the live-long doo dah day.

I used to have the privledge of working one-man basketball from top-of-the-key to top-of-the-key. I did 3 games back-to-back-to-back twice a week for the top A-League in the SDSU Inter-Fraternity Rec League, where all the slam-dunkin' brothers played. That was also quite a workout.:eek:

Even after all that, I still say baseball is much harder. It's much harder to call 250 to 300 pitches a game than call some fouls or throw a penalty flag once in a while. Sheesh.:rolleyes:

BTW, I do know Mr. Gregg. I've played some softball with the man. He is a great guy, and was a damn good umpire. Why you want to disparage him is beyond me.

War

Come on, Jeff. I know you're better than standing in one spot while you're working a baseball game aren't you?


Tim.

Close 2 it, the END
 

"SAump is another troll from Officials Unlimited, Brian, good catch there."

Honestlty, I have never had sex with any women from OU, or any MILF from eteamz. This is the ONE baseball site I choose because I think it is the best (maybe FED is close, :confused:, maybe NOT).

My premise is entirely over safety concerns. Take the steroids and work the slot. Buy lots of ICE too for those bruises. I know you want to move up. You can have my ticket too. There is no overnight magic pill. Hustle, knowledge and determination only get you so FAR before reality brings you back to earth. The PRO, ML and NCAA boyz don't want you there. There aren't enuf SPOTS and those that are available don't PAY like your DAY job. Sorry to BUST your bubble. Please get your college certificate and find a good slot in the job market.

Moderator, I think something may have spun out of control here. I leave you the last DANCE. I will now retire from this thread.

For once, SAump and I agree. Allowing this to continue is just ridiculous. I don't know how many posts you'll have to delete that have been made by this guy under multiple alias' or ban him by user name until the problem gets solved. He destroyed his own forum and now he's bent on destroying all others out of rage and petty jealousy. I suppose I could stoop to his level and spew forth venom about his family, his job, post bull about his wife leaving him, make a mockery out of his fathers death, but that's not my style. It's time to send him back to own forum where he can post whatever he wants as whoever he wants whenever he wants.


Tim.

I must be out of step. In my clinics, articles, books, I teach there are TWO positions from which to view a pitch: (a) the box; (b) the slot. (Professional umpires stole the name "box" for one of their slot stances. Ignore that revisionism.)

The box is that rectangle <b>directly behind the catcher</b>. The American League umpires used the box from the start of their League in 1903 until the 1970s. A box umpire looks directly over the catcher's head and views the plate head on.

<i>Every other stance</i> is a slot, where the umpire looks between the batter and the plate.

There are simply variations of the slot stance: knee (Doug Harvey's creation), scissors (Ed Vargo's sadistic legacy), heel-toe (PBUC stance), heel/toe/heel/toe (Jim Evan's name for his stance), balanced (John McSherry's stance, which the wannabes call the box), and the Gerry Davis.

Gerry Davis is <i>identical</i> to John McSherry's balanced slot stance with one addition: Gerry (and his disciplies, of whom I am one) uses the hands-on-knees set position.

There is one safe place for an umpire behind the plate: In the box (behind the catcher) with the outside protector.

Wherever else you stand, you're going to get plunked.

Now, if I've missed something, and there is a spot where the umpire can use Gerry Davis without being in the slot, let know.

Otherwise, buy plenty of Sportscreme. And get those soccer shin guards for forearm protection. About half of the GD umpires in my association now wear them. They smile a lot more.

I had forgotten about the shin guards for the arms, but after getting "plunked" Saturday in the forearm that would be a good investment, actually, my son has some that he uses for soccer that I could borrow.

And worn under my jacket, if would also be pretty much unnoticed. Thanks for the reminder.

Thanks
David

I recently returned from a 3-day camp. A MLB umpire instructor there all but refused to let me work the GD stance in cage drills, said, "there's no way in hell you can see the outside corner of the plate from there."

*shrug* Camps are great...you can take what helps you, and discard the rest :D

Then where would these states have the BU with only R3?

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

How many baseball games have you ever worked that lasted an hour? What level was this, T-Ball? Why make such a remark? - mick

Mick,

I made the remark because of the stupid remark by Jeff that a) umpires stand in one place, and b) that baseball games are one hour in length. Had these bizarre statements not been posted, I would have had no need to ask the level of baseball, since only a T-Ball game could be one hour in length. I feel that it is a perfectly good question to ask an obvious expert on the subject.

Hello SanDiegoSteve,
...But nobody else felt the need to reply to Rut's obvious overstatement.
What you may actually *need* may be the question.

If you say a T-ball game last for an hour, I believe you.
If you say an umpire [maybe on third base ?] cannot ever stand in one place for an hour, that is something I have never timed.

mick

Steve, I am just having a little fun. Calm down, it will be alright.
 

Dude relax. What I said had a lot of tongue and cheek involved. I do not do many games of any kind that last an hour. But to try to tell me that I am doing more running and constant moving in baseball games as I am working a football or basketball game is silly. I know you think baseball is so hard, but most of the time I am standing in the same place for minutes on end. On a football play I am likely moving on every single play and during dead ball periods. I am also not comparing Pop Warner to a HS varsity or college game.

Everyone does not work one man games. I know I almost never work one man games or attempt to work one man games. I have worked one man basketball games during the summer and I moved more in those games than in 5 minutes of play than I ever have on a baseball field.

Yes you might have 300 pitches if you are working the plate. That is only about half the time if you are lucky when you actually work a baseball game. I am not running 50 feet to call a single pitch. It is also not like every pitch I have to seriously rule on. Batters swing at pitches; balls hit the dirt or fly over the catcher’s head. I know we would all like to think we are constantly making decisions, but the reality is we are only making calls on some of those pitches.

Yes, I might only blow my whistle in a basketball game 20 times (that might be high in a 3 man game), you have to do that running, trying to get in position and it is not like you are yelled at for only the times you blow the whistle. You get yelled at quite a bit more for what you

He might have been a very good umpire, but Eric Gregg was basically the shinning example of why Major League Umpires were criticized all the time in the 90s. He was fat and out of shape. There was an umpire that died on the field from having a heart attack. Eric Gregg took a leave of absence after that tragedy to try to lose weight so the same thing did not happen to him. Then when he came back to the Majors he looked just about the same as he did before he left. He is probably the most famous name out there, but a lot of those guys looked like they did not miss a meal they did not like and they were the laughing stock of pro officials. If you look at the guys that have arrived since the Phillip’s experiment, none of them look like Gregg did and they got rid of a lot of guys that looked like that when they had the opportunity to bring them back. I think if we agree on nothing else, no one looking like Gregg would be allowed to work in the NFL or the NBA. All the other stuff is just hyperbole and **** talking.

Peace

Jeff,

I am mostly comparing working the plate in the hot sun (nearly every day here) in full plate gear, working all day long to working a football game.

I know that HS football games have an extra official on each flank, so there isn't as much running as in a 3 or 4 man Pop Warner crew. The HL and FJ's responsibility is passed on to those 2 plus a Back Judge too.

You are correct, there is not as much sustained running in baseball. But there are other factors besides running involved. I just feel that having done all three sports, that baseball is the more difficult of the three. I also have enjoyed doing baseball so much more than basketball or football, so it's the only sport which I continued officiating.

It's hard for me to tell when what you say is tongue-in-cheek, and when you are serious. Most of the time you are pretty darn serious.http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_1_71.gif
:)

SanDiegoSteve,
He just sounds serious on days when he hasn't had a hug.
mick

Since a steal of third isn't possible with R3 only, these states put the umpire in B.

I recommended that in 1988. Seems some places caught on.

This is an opinion. If you think working all day in the hot sun is so difficult, then so be it. My point was not what the elements are, the point was what it normally takes to get in position to make calls, the type of calls you have make and the way you have to make those calls. I worked a game in the cold (I will take a warm day anytime) and I was working the bases and all I did was stand. Every call I could have made from my car and I ran more between innings than I did actually during the game (someone else made a similar statement).

I did not know we had a FJ in HS football. At least here we do not. ;)

That statement says a lot. I work all three for about the same amount of time. I also work all at similar levels.

Have a sense of humor man. Remember this thread is basically about what mechanics are better than another and why one position is better when both are basically in the same place. This is like 6 in one hand and half a dozen in the other. Or better yet if the Sopranos are better than ER or the West Wing. It is all about taste in the end.

Peace

Rut,

Gee, I thought the "are you serious" smiley, and the little smiley face were pretty obvious examples of having a sense of humor.

I tried to be funny with you before, remember? The Eminem lyrics posting, to which you responded in kind. Then I also explained what my black friends thought of me, how they didn't see me as black or white, they saw me as Steve? You proceeded to label me incorrectly as a racist as I recall, saying that you didn't care how many of my friends were black, and yada, yada, yada. So I thought perhaps you didn't have a sense of humor yourself. Most of your posts are of a serious nature, so how is one to know you're being funny?

Ask anyone who knows me. Ask Tim Haag if I have a sense of humor. Jeez Alou, 50% or more of my comments are tongue-in-cheek. I go out of my way to indicate that what I'm saying is a joke by the overuse of smilies!

BTW, when I worked football, the official on the flank directly opposite the Head Linesman was known as the Field Judge. He is the one who signals covered/uncovered with HL, and also has the 25 second clock, and initiates delay-of-game penalty. What do you call this official? I'm guessing Side Judge.

yep, those cosmetics can get quite expensive.

Does this make you happy.
 

You lost me on this statement. Now you are telling me about Black friends you once had and conversations I do not even remember or have the time to concern myself with. Actually a lot of my post if not most have a humor side to them. I do not take anything in officiating that seriously. After all it is a hobby and I cannot get upset over something that does not pay the bills or is going to give me retirement. Just because I do not put a smiley on every post and guys like try to read too much into my posts does not mean I do not use humor. You talked about what people know about you. Just about anyone that knows me I joke, laugh and try to have a good time just about anytime I am doing something. Save the "I am not a racist" speech because nothing you say is going to change what I may or may not feel about you. I do not even know you and I have never met you. I seriously hope you are not going to change minds by that little rant?

Once again get a grip. I do not need to ask anyone that knows you. I do not know anyone that knows you personally. Even the people that come here do not know me very well, they only know me from a far or when I might occasionally talk to each other.

The official you are describing is called the Line Judge (in all 5 man mechanics that I know of). It has been that way for at least 10 years that I have been working football. The Side Judge and Field Judge are the wings on a 7 man crew. Now if you worked on a 7 man crew in HS that would not be typical for most of us unless you lived in places like Texas and maybe Pennsylvania. There are no Side Judges or Field Judges in 5 man crews. Now maybe you worked longer than 10 years and that was the position names, but not in the current day. ;) (Is that good enough for you? :cool:)

Peace

I did not say he was not a nice guy. I can tell you I have worked games in other sports with guys that look a lot like Gregg and the main thing people say about guys are their weight or their look. It is also assumed that they are not in very good position to make calls (true or not). The thing is we are judged as official/umpires by what people see. If you are overweight or your uniform looks bad, you have to overcome a perception that might be not at all true and work harder to convince others that you can work properly.

Whether any of us like it or not Eric Gregg was for the most part a punch line. That might not have been fair, but his look was the reason for much of those kinds of comments. He was certainly not the only one, but he was the most well known.

Peace

Rut,

I never said you weren't a racist.

I was simply reminding you of a post in which you cracked back on me hard, kind of like the one you just made. I wasn't trying to "change your mind" about anything. I am not racist, and I could care less if you think I am or not. The point was that I am color blind when it comes to judging people, which you have proven not to be. Once again, the point went right over your head. You sure are awfully beligerent and combative for someone who signs their posts "peace."

War

Steve and Rut,
Why not take this to private E-mails, or just drop it?
Thanks.
mick

You got it, Mick.

Good, you feel better now?

Peace

Mick,

Do not put me in this discussion. I have no reason to send Steve a private email. I do not have anything I want to say to him that is that important. If you do not like the way the conversation is going, delete the thread. Steve has some issues he needs to deal with. They are not going to get solved by an email. ;)

Peace

Yeah, Rut.
I figgered that, and that's why I put in the "or drop it part".
mick

Mick, I understand why you made the comment. I was just stating that you should delete the thread if the comments have come to personal in your best judgment. I have seen threads or posts get deleted for much less than what is said on this particular topic. Someone sent me a private message not to long ago because they were concerned they <b>might have</b> offended me (they did not of course). Steve is holding on to something that he and only he will have to deal with.

Peace

'Twasn't too personal for me, Rut. It was just gettin' stale.
mick