I think I blew another call with R1 stealing to second. Any suggestions on how to get it right when there is a close play at second on a steal from first base? (Should I get down on one knee,or should I have my knees bent with my hands on them? Should I look at where the tag is or just call it how I see it? If its a close play and I'm am not sure myself, should I call him out or safe?)

[Edited by Gre144 on Jun 23rd, 2001 at 10:43 AM]

I f you only have R1 then you should be in "B" from there drift toward second watching the throw from the plate. Turn with the ball or a little ahead on get set to make the call. Hands on knees is good if you can get it but most don't. Don't get too close or it will blow up on you. Watch the tag and foot then call what you got. As they say in school when doubt get an out.
It sounds like you are getting too close or you are turning too late which means you are still moving. Make sure you're stopped, the extra two steps aren't worth it.Ask your partner to keep an eye on your mechanic at second because you're probably moving and don't realize it.

All i could tell you is relax when making calls like that, once you are relaxed you will see everything much clearer

I find the level of arguing and complaining goes up not because of the quality of the calls you make, but because of the situation and competitiveness involved.

Get a good look at it, make sure you're set, make your call. Reward good play if you're not sure. If the throw is there, give the fielder the benefit of the doubt, if the throw is off, or the tag is high , or the fielders were sleeping, lean toward giving the runner the edge.

Don't be so quick to second guess yourself. Whatever happened there was something that made you lean one way or the other. If it was getting back at a coach, or gauging which fans were least likely to disagree, then that's blowing the call. If you made your best honest guess based on what you saw, then you are sure of yourself, you nailed the call.

A lot of the young guys I train have trouble with this play because they are simply out of position for the call - - even though they think they are in position!

You need to be at a perfect 90 degrees to the sliding runner for a tag play. Position B already sets you up in a poor position - from behind the play. Behind the play, no matter how slight, is the worst place for such a tag play.

When you turn with the ball toward the play, make sure you move, quite quickly, to that 90 degree position. Don't get caught behind the play no matter how slight. The ball will take you to the play, but your feet must take you into position.

Angle first, then distance.

You may need to do a better job "selling" your calls. If the throw beats the runner (people are expecting an out call) and the runner is clearly under the tag add something like "Safe, he's under the tag". Avoid the temptation to be too close to first base for the possible pick-off and as Jim Porter advises let the throw take you into the play. The closer the play -- the slower the call as you develop the picture.

This I read somewhere, so I can't take the credit, but it helps me with tag plays. Focus on the slowest moving component of the tag play. The fastest component is the thrown ball, followed by the swiping tag. The slowest component is the sliding foot (or hand). If you focus in on this and just be aware of the timing of the tag, you'll be looking at things that the human eye can actually see. Helps me.

<i> Originally posted by Gre144 </i>
<b> I think I blew another call with R1 stealing to second. Any suggestions on how to get it right when there is a close play at second on a steal from first base? </b>

First off you said close play, which to me means a banger. In that case you are not going to please everybody so that means one side will give the oo's and ahs and the other side will say good call blue. That's the nature of the business.

Jim P has given you the proper and taught mechanic for this type of play. Now you have to sell it, so you seem sure of your call.

NOTE: If you are going to make a call opposite of what everybody expects - give more details of the call. Ie; Ball is in time to get runner but tag is up high. Now in addition to the safe call as someone else mentioned, you also say "under the tag" or if it's a swiping type of tag and F4 or F6 misses the runner say "He missed the tag".

Conversely, if it appears the runner is safe and you make the out call, point to the area in which the runner was tagged. You see PRO umpires do this all the time. With there left hand they point to the tagged area and then ring up the runner with their right hand.

IMO the more information about a call we can give the better. Also, you must learn to SELL a call even if you are unsure. If a coach senses an unsureness about your call, he / she will be on you <i> like a chicken on a worm </i> for not only that call but future close calls. Do not give them that amunition.

As far as blowing a call we all do. The important thing is not to dwell on it so that it effects your next call. Learn from your mistake and improve the next time.

Pete Booth

Conversely, if it appears the runner is safe and you make the out call, point to the area in which the runner was tagged. You see PRO umpires do this all the time. With there left hand they point to the tagged area and then ring up the runner with their right hand.


Pete Booth [/B][/QUOTE]

Well today, I called a runner out sliding to second who was tagged on the shoulder. No complaints from anyone because he was tagged before he reached the base even though the tag was high. I don't think where a person gets tagged tells you much about if he is safe or out. What is important is if the tag was put on him before he got to the base. Maybe I'm wrong but I think I blew my call a couple of days ago because I saw a high tag so I instinctively called him safe even though everyone else thought he was out by a mile. Could you explain in more detail how you think the positioning of the tag helps you to determine if the runner is out or safe? The method for looking where the tag was placed has not helped me much. Just my opinion.

<i> Originally posted by Gre144 </i>

<b> Could you explain in more detail how you think the positioning of the tag helps you to determine if the runner is out or safe? The method for looking where the tag was placed has not helped me much. </b>

First off using Jim P's advice you should be in the optimal position - 90% angle to make the call. Now most people will see the runner slide in safely - not knowing where the actual tag took place.

In your example, you said the tag was on the shoulder, so by pointing with your left hand indicating that a tag had occured, and then ringing up the runner with the right hand - you displayed to everyone that even though the runner appears to be safe the tag actually occured before he touched the base.

In general, runners appear to be safe when the tag isn't directly or right on the bag - in other words the throw is off line a bit. In those instances you watch the tag and where the runners foot is at that time. That's why I find it useful to point, indicating that there was indeed a tag before the runner touched the base.

In a way it's no different than the tag play at first. You watch the ball leave the fielders hand and then pick up the position of F3 and the runner. On this play most umpires point with their left hand indicating that there was a tag.

As mentioned, the more information we give when a call is opposite to what people expect the better.

Pete Booth

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jim Porter

Quote:

A lot of the young guys I train have trouble with this play because they are simply out of position for the call - - even though they think they are in position! You need to be at a perfect 90 degrees to the sliding runner for a tag play. Position B already sets you up in a poor position - from behind the play. Behind the play, no matter how slight, is the worst place for such a tag play. (snip) Angle first, then distance.

Jim:<p>I couldn't have said it better myself.

That's why I recommend that the umpire with R1 belongs in C! Try it.

You'll note that you have a much better ANGLE on the pick-off at first.

You'll note that with runners on the corner you stand in C, so you've no objection to calling a pick-off at first from the C position.

You'll note that you have a perfect ANGLE on the steal of second: A simple pivot allows you to look between the runner and the base, not over his shoulder.

You'll note that in a season, 75% of the MLB plays the camera judges were called wrong occurred on a steal of second when U2 chose B with R1.

Regards:

On the other hand....
 

....I've found that position B does put you in the best position for one thing on that steal of second -- the swipe tag by F4/F6 from behind R1 on that wide throw (to the plate side).

However, when I work three or four man and I'm the guy at second making the call, I ALWAYS work deep C. Carl is right -- having the play open to you rather than having the throw turn you is much preferable.

(Another) However, most associations are going to want you in B, so let's talk position B.

It is crucial that you are in the right position, equidistant between the mound and second base. Many umpires set up too far in towards the plate or too far towards first base.

If there is a pickoff to first, your step should be FORWARD towards the plate, not towards first. I use one big step forward with my left foot, on which heel I then turn. Step and turn on my heel. Nothing more. Unless the runner was leaning and still "swimming" for the base coming back or unless he has a massive coronary and dies before returning to first, you will likely call the runner safe. Chalk this up as a limitation of the two-man system.

If there is a steal of second, try to get two or three quick, large backwards steps towards the base before the ball reaches (and turns) you. After the ball turns you and before the fielder catches the ball, come set.

In most cases, if the ball beats the runner and the glove is put down, the runner should be called out. Unless the fielder makes a horrible tag or if it is obvious that the runner made a heroic effort in avoiding the tag (hook sliding to the back of the base, for example), make the out call.

Rich
--------------
eContact, eUmpire
[email protected]

Originally posted by Carl Childress

Quote:

You'll note that in a season, 75% of the MLB plays the camera judges were called wrong occurred on a steal of second when U2 chose B with R1. Regards:

Very interesting statistic. It only becomes meaningful if we know the percentage of MLB umpires who make the call from B rather than C. If 75% of MLB umpires make the call from B then one would expect that 75% of the misses would be from B. OTOH, if 90% of MLB umpires make the call from B, but only 75% of the misses are from B, then B is, in fact, the superior position.

The 75% statistic that you quote implies that B is the inferior position. That is true, if and only if, less than 75% of MLB umpires work from the B position when calling out steals from first.

BTW, I happen to agree with Carl's conclusion. I only wish that we had complete statistics to back it up.

Peter

<hr color=red><p>I have no figures to back up my three-quarters "guess-timate." Let me say it accurately: It's been my experience that of the calls missed by major league umpires -- as evidenced by instant replay -- a very high percentage are at second base and made by umpires who started in Position B. Looking over the shoulder seems not so good to me as looking between the runner and the bag.<p>Except for one unusual association, I have never called with a three-man crew where U3 went to the B side. Everyone -- I thought -- likes the 90-degree angle.<p>I'm glad you agree with my figures even if my statistics may be faulty.

Sure Trip to Bronco ball 1 man games
 

And then, some work in the real world of high level amateur baseball (kids that shave).

Let's follow the career of the ambitious umpire working his way up the political ladder of his large association. Lets watch him make 1st base pickoff calls from "C" with R1 only. It won't matter a hoot if they are RIGHT or WRONG... all we know is the managers will notice the umpire a mile away from the play and hoot and hollar and have a spastic fit. And after hearing that "I have a better angle", will be tossed due to their expletive deleted response.

And our hero will work 1 or 2 more Senior Babe or Connie Mack games... then, mysteriously, will only find himself assigned to 1 man Bronco games in OuterEastJesus. Have you ever seen the Mom's in OuterEastJesus? Yee gods....

Re: Sure Trip to Bronco ball 1 man games
 

Well around where I've called Bronco was pretty serious baseball and we always used a two or three man crew.

So that's not so bad of a place to learn.

As far as the positioning, our local group recommends B position and I teach that position because that's what the state wants.

However, in the summer I often move to C. <i>Haven't heard a snip from any coaches.</i>

The only coaches who will be complaining (IMHO) will be if the umpire in C is not paying attention and misses the obvious calls.

I mean it's just not that hard to call a pick off whether you are in B, C, D the stands or getting a drink at the concessions.

Thanks
David

Re: Sure Trip to Bronco ball 1 man games
 

[/B][/QUOTE]<hr color=red><p>I've had this discussion -- or one like it -- many times. Regardless of which side I take, someone espousing the party line of the PRO school takes me to task.<p>Situation: R2 heads for third on a throw across the diamond from F5. Some (PRO grads) says that <b>both</b> calls belong to the BU. I argue the PU should take the play at third.<p>"But, no, Carl," I am told. "Where have you been? Angle v distance, you know: The field umpire does not need to get NEAR the play at third; all he needs is the correct angle, and that's easy!" Result: Carl "loses" that argument in the eyes of the wannabees.<p>Now I suggest that an umpire in C has a much better <b>ANGLE</b> for the pick-off at first because he can cheat closer to the plate without destroying his perfect 90-degree <B>ANGLE</b> for the steal of second.<p>"But, no, Carl," I am told. "Don't you know that an umpire cannot call a pick-off play at first from that distance? Every coach will jump on him. He'll wind up in a permanent one-man 'crew.' Distance is everything!" Result: Carl "loses" that argument in the eyes of the wannabees.<p>I have always suggested four steps toward improving the mechanics in any association:<ol><li>Convince just one top dog -- and the rest is easy.</li><p><li>Ask your assignor for permission to try out some of the "risky" mechanics on small diamonds, where the umpire is already closer than usual to plays. The Mustang Field is ideal for that.</li><p><li>Remember to use the accepted mechanics until you have someone's ok.</li><p><li>Finally, ask whoever is in charge where you should stand with runners on the corners. All roads lead to Rome, they say. If he says Position C with runners on the corners, then you're three quaters of the way across the Tiber.</ol></li><p>Aside from worrying about my candidate umpire's future, what's your thinking about having a better angle at first from the C-side of the diamond? How do you feel about B v C with a runner on first only?

I'll chip in with my thoughts....
 

....mainly because they are opposite yours.

I DO stand in B with R1&R3.
I stand in B with every baserunning situation EXCEPT TWO:
(1) R2 only
(2) R1 & R2.

YES, I use B with R3 only and with R2 & R3 and with bases loaded. With R2 and R3 and with R3 only, I use a deeper B, halfway between the traditional 2-man and the deep B used in 3- and 4-man.

I don't have a problem calling the steals at second, EXCEPT for one play where I think B gives me an edge: The throw, wide to the first base side, where F4 or F6 has to catch and swipe in one motion. I think I get a better view of the play from behind.

I also like the look of the pickoff at first from B, whenever I can get it. The pickoff at SECOND is far easier in B.

I also truly hate C. I've been debating never working C and covering even the steal of third from B, as soon as I find the right game to try it and practice it in.

Carl is right. It IS "easier" to get in position for the steal of second from C. In my earlier post, I described how you need to work hard to get in position from B. EVEN WITH THAT, I still prefer B because I get the view of the play that I like.

Look, mechanics are like driving a car. When learning, schools teach one way to do things. But as you put years and good experience on, you can change things to suit your preferences and abilities.

Also, Moose doth protest too much. I worked a year in his association, and nobody gives a flying flip if you are in A, B, C, D, E, F, or G. Nobody in the association, nobody who you partner with, and certainly not the coaches, who are more concerned with the guy behind the plate squeezing his pitcher. I worked the above set of "non-approved" mechanics the entire year (only year) I was there, and certainly didn't suffer in the least bit.

Rich

Moose is stuck in the mud
 

I must concur Rich.

Hell, Moose has created his *own* mechanic regarding coverage on fly balls in the V or cone or whatever you wish to call it. Apparently , THIS will not slow his ascent up the the Moose passage in the Rockies!

Blaine

Moose Misunderstood
 

Does anyone know the english letters to symbolize the Moose's cry of despair! Something like BLLCKKKEWWRRCKK!

Now really.. let's not mislead these nice people. I did NOT create my own mechanics. (Did I?)

Yikes, I upset the Bronco people. With all due respect to other areas of the country.. was simply making the point (poorly it seems).. that making up non standard mechanics "could" keep you in my associations lower levels... and Bronco is simply the lowest level (13s) that we do. But fine lads they are!

Frony really does not have the experience in the Assoc to make a blanket statement. It does matter for people that care how they are percieved, or that want to advance.

Here is a Stick. This side of stick (Position B) is nice and clean. THAT side of stick (Position C) is covered with "youknowwhat". I simply state I care how my hands smell after the game. I prefer to make all the right calls AND smell clean and fresh, as opposed to all the right calls, and smell like the pasture.

Finally, I would even GRANT CC his geometry as to the view from "C"..but it may be splitting hairs anyway. It is almost a SO WHAT? The "book" says B... the Assoc says B... current pro teaching says B, and 100% of Assoc (mine) work B. So if you don't work B you look like a knucklehead who has never been trained.

Oh.... and R2 only... when working with anyone OTHER than the biggest Crustiest Dog... I will either advise.. or suggest that PU come up to help at 3rd after the lookback and throw to 1st. But this is a real life OPTIONAL mechanic, use of which will not get you busted back to _____________insert low level league here.

I do the same thing that Rich does> I work "B" most of the time, note Rich's exceptions. I've gotten a lot of my association doing it but we tell them it's optional.

Re: Re: Sure Trip to Bronco ball 1 man games
 

<i> Originally posted by Carl Childress </i>

Papa C the problem I find with being in the C position with r1 is as follows:

1. I am in much better position to call the back end of a DP in B than in C, especially on a banger which is the majority of cases.

2. From C it is more difficult to help out the PU on check swings, ball hitting batter in box, etc. In B, the view of the plate area and the batter is much clearer.

Finally, the majority of plays in a baseball game are at first base. We are obviously closer in position B than in C.

I have experimented with both positions and for me I prefer B. If you follow the ball from F2's arm right to the base, I find that the ball will take me to the base and I am in as good position as any.

The problem with B, is many umpires take there eye off of the ball (when F2 still has it in his possession) to find the runner and fielder and IMO that's where they get into trouble. If you keep your eyes on the ball (which we are taught) and follow right into F4 or F6's glove - that will take you right to the play.

As with everything in life, it involves practice.

Pete Booth





Pete Booth

Personal Preferences
 

Pete:

This is interesting, becasue everything you like from B, I like from C.

I think most of this comes from working 3-man most of the time. Over time, I have been in C when working the inside of hte diamond. When I go back to 2-man, I have a hard time working the steal, DP, etc. from B. My view is strange and I find the play is not completely in front of me. I am having to turn with the ball coming over my shoulder on the steal and the DP.

Especially on a DP, I find from C you can turn with the throw to 2nd and have the play at second and the play at first within your field of vision, at least periferally (sp?).

I have experimented both ways, and I like the C side, again probably because it is what I am used to.

Blaine

Re: Personal Preferences
 

<i> Originally posted by Blaine Gallant </i>

<b> This is interesting, becasue everything you like from B, I like from C. </b>

Blaine, I guess it all boils down to style. I am constantly experimenting with new ideas, both on my own and from others. As long as we get the majority of calls correct, thats the main point.

<i> Bangers </i> are <i> Bangers </i> and one side will not be happy whether the call is from B or C. As we all know that's the "nature of the beast."

If things go ok, I plan on attending the 2 man clinic that will be offered in Atlanta Georgia during the second week of February. It will be interesting to see what they teach.

As a side note: except for playoffs and sectionals, practically all my work is 2 man.

Thanks for the feedback

Pete Booth

Re: Re: Personal Preferences
 

<i> Bangers </i> are <i> Bangers </i> and one side will not be happy whether the call is from B or C. As we all know that's the "nature of the beast."

I agree with your assertion about someone not being happy. The arguement I love is that I was too far away. Here is the conversation:

Coach: How can you make that call from there.

Me: I am in great position coach, go away.

Coach: You are too far away.

Me: Coach, could you see it all the way from the bench?

Coach: Yes.

Me: Obviously, then I was close enough. Now, go away.

After being duped, he realizes it goes nuts and gets ejected! See you can have your cake and eat it too.

Life is good.

Blaine

Here is what works for me
 

For what it's worth, here is what works for me:

I hear "He's going!" Once I see the cather cock his arm back, I take my first step back w/ my right foot, the as the ball is released, I come back w/ my left, all the while facing the ball, (I start square to the batter, at this point my body is faced so the left should is facing the plate. Depending on the level of ball and the velocity of the throw is how many steps I can get towards 2nd. (just don't get too close) I let the ball turn my shoulders and eyes towards the play. I get as close as I can get to 90` but I never get quite there. I don't alway get locked w/ my hands on knees yet, but I at least lock my knees and get the 'camera' steady. If I need to 'look closer' to the play, especially on an out call, I cheat a step or two towards the play while pausing to make sure possesion of the ball was kept or when doing my mechanic.

What I've found this year on pick-off and/or steals that I thought I missed, I usually rushed the call. Try slowing it down and see if that helps. I'm working on slowing it down alot this year and almost everyone I'm unsure of, in retrospect I rushed.

Bob

I was told by the guy that trained me that with R1 and R3 you should always be in position B. Is that true?

That is not the customary postion for runners on the corner.

But he suggested the B position because he said you're closer to the calls for a double play.

It changed in 1991, I believe
 

Prior to 1991 (?), the pro schools taught that with runners on the corners, the BU should be in position C. In 1991, the changed the mechanics to B. (I could be off by a year or two but I am certain that the current position is B for runners on the corners.)

This is the pro school mechanics only. FED mechanics could be different but since my association does not allow their use, I am not sure what the current FED doctrine is.

Peter

Re: It changed in 1991, I believe
 

Mr. Obsorne:<p>Probably you don't have your PBUC manual at work. (grin) When you get home this evening, check out 8.8 to see what the VERY current (2000) edition has to say about where the umpire stands with runners on the corners.

Try reading the UDP manual Section 7
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carl Childress

Quote:

Mr. Obsorne:<p>Probably you don't have your PBUC manual at work. (grin) When you get home this evening, check out 8.8 to see what the VERY current (2000) edition has to say about where the umpire stands with runners on the corners.

I just talked to Garrett Prestwood who attended the Jim Evans Pro School in 2001. He insists that the B position was taught for runners on the corners. I can check with a D1 conference umpire who attended pro school in 2001 if you need further confirmation. Further, if you check the UDP manual section 7, you will see that position B is the position listed.

I don't have a copy of the 2000 PBUC manual. It appears that we have a case of the left hand not knowing what the right hand is doing. I can, however, assure you that in August 2000, at a single A minor league game in the Carolina League that I attended at Prince William County Stadium, the base umpire worked position B with runners on 1st and 3rd.

What we have here is a classic case of the poor journeyman umpire having to check out for himself what actually occurs on the field. You absolutely cannot believe what you see in print or what big dogs say about how they work. Only by going to the field and watching real umpires work can one determine what the true state of affairs is.

Carl did not intentionally mislead anyone. His only sin (g) was to believe what he read in a book. In umpiring, this can be a fatal mistake. You must confirm what you read or hear from a big dog, with what you actually see on a baseball field. Too often, it is not the same thing.

Peter

Re: Try reading the UDP manual Section 7
 

Peter: Do you think the fact that the discussion was about <b>three-man mechanics</b> might impact your position on this subject?

I only say that because I didn't know they wre using three-man crews in the Carolina League.

Yep, I read a book. I can also read a thread. (Tee, hee!)

They use 2 man mechanics in the Carolina League
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Carl Childress

Quote:

Peter: Do you think the fact that the discussion was about <b>three-man mechanics</b> might impact your position on this subject? I only say that because I didn't know they wre using three-man crews in the Carolina League. Yep, I read a book. I can also read a thread. (Tee, hee!)

Carl;

I also read the thread. You will notice that the topic changed to two man mechanics when Moose became involved. You, yourself, must have been aware of this change of the discussion to two man mechanics because you mentioned calling pickoff plays at first from the C position. No one does that in 3 man that I am aware of. (g)

GRE 144's question came after we switched to two man mechanics and clearly involves two man mechanics. That is the question that I was making my responses to after you made the response to GRE 144.

You didn't think that you were answering GRE 144's question in 3 man, did you? (grin) Perhaps you allowed the musings of "Brainless in Seattle" to confuse you. LOL

You had me going for a minute there, Carl. Until I reread the whole thread, I thought that I must be losing my mind. This can be a fatal condition for an umpire. We must never doubt ourselves on the field (or on the internet). Senility forces the retirement of umpires even faster than physical limitations.

Peter

Peter, I cannot agree with you more. I felt all along Childress was discussing 2 man mechanics. I re-read the thread and noticed Childress' post of 6/29/01 @ 3:58 which talks about R2 only and PU coming up to 3rd base to take the call. Surely Childress could not have been stating that PU should take that call at 3rd with a 3 man crew, could he? LOL

I didn't see anywhere thereafter where a 3 man crew was even discussed.

Just my opinion,

Freix