you refused to get the call right, you %&^*$#@

[btdt]

In another thread a short comment was made to the effect "he/you refused to get the call right" because you/he didnt go to your partner for help.

In the name of getting the call right, perhaps some write like they believe that you should consult with your partner on every call? After all, on every single play your partner has a different angle than you, perhaps he saw something you didnt .... better check with your partner to be sure you get the call right!

When to go to your partner? I believe:
(non rules related)

1. WHEN ASKED ONLY, on a checked swing

2. When I am in B/C (not A) and a swipe tag occures on the batter/runner because of a poor throw.

AT MY DISCRECTION,I MAY ask the PU BEFORE I make my initial call "was there a tag??" And from our pregame or many times of working together the PU should respond with a yes or no (no out/safe signals because it is my call)then I will make the call. If I have made the call I have already decided I will not be going for help. On a judgement call I will not under any cercumstance go for help when a coach comes out and requests it. My call, I made it and I already chose to get/not get help.

Judgement calls on the bases are your/my responsibility. Otherwise you might as well have a bench on each base line with a set of six judges to render a decision like skating in the Olympics. (The panel of judges are more likly to get the call wrong than you as an individual BU.)

Remember, the PU has other duties and watching for a swipe tag down the first base line may be 3rd, 4th or more on his list on resposibilities, depending on the situation.

Going for help when your partner had other duties is like your wife asking if this dress makes her look fat.

3. Pulled foot when in B/C (not A) same as above.

I have more but am interested in the situation others believe you should/shouldnt go for help. (and why)

[Justme]

1) Umpires should seek help when their view is blocked or positioning prevents him from seeing crucial elements of a play.

2) Umpires should seek help in instances when they have any doubt and a partner has additional information that could lead to the proper ruling.

3) In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire.
a) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul.
b) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground rule double.
c) Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher.
d) Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught.
e) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see the ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force. Or a pulled foot.
f) Spectator interference plays.
g) Balks legal called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitcher’s foot was off the rubber.

4) Umpires should not seek help on plays which they are 100% confident in their judgment and view of the play. Head coaches are not entitled to a second opinion when the calling umpire is certain his decision is correct. On the other hand, and contrary to past practice, umpires should not “die with a call” in cases where:
a) the calling umpire is not 100% certain he is right; and
b) another umpire has additional information which could lead to a proper ruling.

5) Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include:
a) Steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpire’s knowledge as discussed above);
b) Force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled);
c) Balls and strikes (other than check swings).

6) Remember, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a “catch/no catch” with multiple runners.

[GarthB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Justme
1) Umpires should seek help when their view is blocked or positioning prevents him from seeing crucial elements of a play.

These umpires need training more than help.

2) Umpires should seek help in instances when they have any doubt and a partner has additional information that could lead to the proper ruling.

Again, proper training and mechanics will eliminate this problem.

3) In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited ...

I see someone has gone to the Rollie School of Umpiring and Screen Door Company.

[BigUmp56]

I agree with Garth. Proper mechanics and positioning will enable you to make your own calls. Bust to the proper position and let the ball take you to the play. If you feel like you're going to get screened then either take a step to improve your angle or just lean and look.

I have no intention of working with another umpire who feels he can make my calls for me. That's why we work with more than one umpire on the field, so as to split up the responsibilities. Who's to say your partner got a better look at the play then you did anyway.

I believe in getting the call right, but I believe in getting the call right the first time. As soon as you start giving unsolicited advice you'll errode any confidence the games participants have in your crew.

Tim.

[cbfoulds]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GarthB

Originally posted by Justme

3) In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited ...

I see someone has gone to the Rollie School of Umpiring and Screen Door Company.

I won't swear to it, but I think this one comes straight from current NCAA guidance to umpires.

[TussAgee11]

On the swipe tag at 1st when I'm in B/C, I prefer to say "Do you have a tag?" Instead of "Did he tag him?"

This way, if the PU wasn't watching, he can say "No." You aren't putting him on the spot as much with "Do you have a tag" as opposed to "Did he tag him".

If he wasn't looking, and you say "Did he tag him" and he says "No", you may be looking at a manager coming out to get on both of you. If he says no to "Do you have a tag" the manager can't be upset with the PU, he's simply saying he never saw a tag.

Just something I've thought about. Thoughts?

[GarthB]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cbfoulds

Originally posted by GarthB

I won't swear to it, but I think this one comes straight from current NCAA guidance to umpires.

I believe you're right. And?

[Justme]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by GarthB

Originally posted by Justme
1) Umpires should seek help when their view is blocked or positioning prevents him from seeing crucial elements of a play.

These umpires need training more than help.

2) Umpires should seek help in instances when they have any doubt and a partner has additional information that could lead to the proper ruling.

Again, proper training and mechanics will eliminate this problem.

3) In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited ...

I see someone has gone to the Rollie School of Umpiring and Screen Door Company.

Actually these were instructions given to Div 1 NCAA umpires last season, maybe they all went to the school you mentioned.....

But maybe their umpiring knowledge isn't as great as yours :-)

[Rich]

Originally posted by TussAgee11
On the swipe tag at 1st when I'm in B/C, I prefer to say "Do you have a tag?" Instead of "Did he tag him?"

This way, if the PU wasn't watching, he can say "No." You aren't putting him on the spot as much with "Do you have a tag" as opposed to "Did he tag him".

If he wasn't looking, and you say "Did he tag him" and he says "No", you may be looking at a manager coming out to get on both of you. If he says no to "Do you have a tag" the manager can't be upset with the PU, he's simply saying he never saw a tag.

Just something I've thought about. Thoughts?

On the swipe tag at first when I start at B/C, I prefer moving my feet, getting in the proper position, and making my own call. I don't make the call from B/C like some umpires I've worked with who think the plate umpire is there specifically to help them do their job.

[Rich]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Justme

Originally posted by GarthB

Actually these were instructions given to Div 1 NCAA umpires last season, maybe they all went to the school you mentioned.....

But maybe their umpiring knowledge isn't as great as yours :-)

Maybe the coaches have too much control over the college game. I don't think the umpire's knowledge or ability have anything to do with it.

[Justme]

Originally posted by BigUmp56
I agree with Garth. Proper mechanics and positioning will enable you to make your own calls. Bust to the proper position and let the ball take you to the play. If you feel like you're going to get screened then either take a step to improve your angle or just lean and look.

I have no intention of working with another umpire who feels he can make my calls for me. That's why we work with more than one umpire on the field, so as to split up the responsibilities. Who's to say your partner got a better look at the play then you did anyway.

I believe in getting the call right, but I believe in getting the call right the first time. As soon as you start giving unsolicited advice you'll errode any confidence the games participants have in your crew.

Tim.

In the 2-man system there is no way that an umpire can always be in the exact correct position to see every play 100% of the time....I don't care how good you think you are!

The old ways are changing....

Our responsibility as umpires is to get the call right no matter what it takes. I tell my partners that they can come to me if I kicked a call. I don't mean that they should yell out "Hey Al you kicked that call he should have been safe", but my partner should approach me with additional information so that we, as a TEAM, can get the call right.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Justme

In the 2-man system there is no way that an umpire can always be in the exact correct position to see every play 100% of the time....I don't care how good you think you are!

The old ways are changing....

Our responsibility as umpires is to get the call right no matter what it takes. I tell my partners that they can come to me if I kicked a call. I don't mean that they should yell out "Hey Al you kicked that call he should have been safe", but my partner should approach me with additional information so that we, as a TEAM, can get the call right.

Your input isn't welcome unless I ask for it, and it's that way, for the most part in the NCAA, as well.

We shouldn't misinterpret the NCAA's instructions -- we are still expected to work hard and get our own calls. We aren't required or even expected to ask around when a coach asks us to unless we feel the other umpire has something to add to the discussion.

The question I always ask: How do we know the partner has the "right" view?

[Rich]

Originally posted by Justme

In the 2-man system there is no way that an umpire can always be in the exact correct position to see every play 100% of the time....I don't care how good you think you are!

The old ways are changing....

Our responsibility as umpires is to get the call right no matter what it takes. I tell my partners that they can come to me if I kicked a call. I don't mean that they should yell out "Hey Al you kicked that call he should have been safe", but my partner should approach me with additional information so that we, as a TEAM, can get the call right.

No, you should be seeking out Al if you want his input. With rare exception (mentioned above), this is the protocol for "seeking help" if you choose to seek help.

[Justme]

[/B][/QUOTE]

In the 2-man system there is no way that an umpire can always be in the exact correct position to see every play 100% of the time....I don't care how good you think you are!

The old ways are changing....

Our responsibility as umpires is to get the call right no matter what it takes. I tell my partners that they can come to me if I kicked a call. I don't mean that they should yell out "Hey Al you kicked that call he should have been safe", but my partner should approach me with additional information so that we, as a TEAM, can get the call right. [/B][/QUOTE]

No, you should be seeking out Al if you want his input. With rare exception (mentioned above), this is the protocol for "seeking help" if you choose to seek help. [/B][/QUOTE]

Come on Rich, are you telling me that while working the plate you've never seen a pulled foot or other things that your partner missed? Do you just let your partner die with "kicked calls"? It's not about the umpire's egos (any longer), it's about calling the best game you can (as a team). I don't mean that it takes away the responsibility from each umpire to hussle and get into the proper position to always make the correct call. I'm talking about when this doesn't happen (and it doesn't happen 100% of the time) the other umpire/s should, for the betterment of the game, help out IF they have anything to offer and they umpire who missed the call should be open to the help offered. Doesn't mean that he has to change the call but all info should be considered.

My first post on this subject, IMHO, outlines the situations when help should be sought and/or offered. I've been doing this for a very long time....I remember the days of living or dying with the call...I like these days better.....

Bottom line is that each of us umpires are going to umpire our games our way.... but it's still fun to kick it around in forums like this.

[PeteBooth]

Originally posted by btdt

I have more but am interested in the situation others believe you should/shouldnt go for help.

The aforementioned is subject for many a debate and has come to fruition more in recent years due to the fact that Umpires in the PROS are huddling more so than in the past.

In a 2 person system we need to strive to make our own calls and live and learn as they say. The fact is we will not get every call right. Also whose to say that indeed your partner had the better angle.

Remember coaches are looking for "anything they can get" and if word gets around that you are an umpire who is constantly going to your partner get ready for long games.

One thing to remember on the swipe tag / pulled foot. It's the defense who screwed up meaning they are the ones who made the poor throw etc.

As BU you should "size the diamond out" meaning KNOW where you need to be in order to have the proper angle.

Have I gone to the PU for help on the swipe tag / pulled foot? - YES but it was instances in which I couldn't get to the spot I wanted.

example; R2 less than 2 outs. Ground ball to F6. Now the rule of thumb is when you as a player are on second less than 2 outs and the ball is hit to the left side of the infield, you freeze. However, we are umpires and not players anymore.

If R2 for some uknown reason gives the appearance that he is going to third and F6 appears to make a play on him /her then as the BU in "C" you cannot get to the optimum spot should F6 then fire to first and the throw is bad.

Also, it is best to make certain we are in the optimal spot when in concerns the lead runner. Does that mean the call at first is any less important than the call at third? In a 2 person system the answer is yes.

Let's say the game is close, winning or tying run on second. "kicking the call at third base" IMO is far worse than "kicking the call at first".

I know what you are thinking. Yeah but if there were 2 outs and we kicked the call at first it could prolong the inning. However, in my example I said LESS than 2 OUTS. With 2 outs one's mechanics are different and you can cheat more towards first base because more likely than not that's where the play is going.

The bottom line is umpires should strive to make their own calls. Learn from your mistakes and in rare instances go to your partner.

Pete Booth