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In another thread a short comment was made to the effect "he/you refused to get the call right" because you/he didnt go to your partner for help.
In the name of getting the call right, perhaps some write like they believe that you should consult with your partner on every call? After all, on every single play your partner has a different angle than you, perhaps he saw something you didnt .... better check with your partner to be sure you get the call right! When to go to your partner? I believe: (non rules related) 1. WHEN ASKED ONLY, on a checked swing 2. When I am in B/C (not A) and a swipe tag occures on the batter/runner because of a poor throw. AT MY DISCRECTION,I MAY ask the PU BEFORE I make my initial call "was there a tag??" And from our pregame or many times of working together the PU should respond with a yes or no (no out/safe signals because it is my call)then I will make the call. If I have made the call I have already decided I will not be going for help. On a judgement call I will not under any cercumstance go for help when a coach comes out and requests it. My call, I made it and I already chose to get/not get help. Judgement calls on the bases are your/my responsibility. Otherwise you might as well have a bench on each base line with a set of six judges to render a decision like skating in the Olympics. (The panel of judges are more likly to get the call wrong than you as an individual BU.) Remember, the PU has other duties and watching for a swipe tag down the first base line may be 3rd, 4th or more on his list on resposibilities, depending on the situation. Going for help when your partner had other duties is like your wife asking if this dress makes her look fat. 3. Pulled foot when in B/C (not A) same as above. I have more but am interested in the situation others believe you should/shouldnt go for help. (and why) |
1) Umpires should seek help when their view is blocked or positioning prevents him from seeing crucial elements of a play.
2) Umpires should seek help in instances when they have any doubt and a partner has additional information that could lead to the proper ruling. 3) In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited and alert the other umpire to such information. However, the ultimate decision to change a call rests with the calling umpire. a) Deciding if a home run is fair or foul. b) Deciding whether a batted ball left the playing field for a home run or ground rule double. c) Cases where a foul tip is dropped or trapped by the catcher. d) Cases where a foul fly ball is caught or not caught. e) Cases when an umpire clearly errs in judgment because they did not see the ball dropped or juggled after making a tag or force. Or a pulled foot. f) Spectator interference plays. g) Balks legal called by an umpire who clearly did not realize the pitchers foot was off the rubber. 4) Umpires should not seek help on plays which they are 100% confident in their judgment and view of the play. Head coaches are not entitled to a second opinion when the calling umpire is certain his decision is correct. On the other hand, and contrary to past practice, umpires should not die with a call in cases where: a) the calling umpire is not 100% certain he is right; and b) another umpire has additional information which could lead to a proper ruling. 5) Judgment calls, which have traditionally not been subject to reversal include: a) Steal and other tag plays (except if the ball is dropped without the umpires knowledge as discussed above); b) Force plays (when the ball is not dropped and foot is not pulled); c) Balls and strikes (other than check swings). 6) Remember, some calls cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. An example is a catch/no catch with multiple runners. |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Justme
1) Umpires should seek help when their view is blocked or positioning prevents him from seeing crucial elements of a play. These umpires need training more than help. 2) Umpires should seek help in instances when they have any doubt and a partner has additional information that could lead to the proper ruling. Again, proper training and mechanics will eliminate this problem. 3) In the situations listed below, a partner who is 100% certain he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call should approach unsolicited ... I see someone has gone to the Rollie School of Umpiring and Screen Door Company. |
I agree with Garth. Proper mechanics and positioning will enable you to make your own calls. Bust to the proper position and let the ball take you to the play. If you feel like you're going to get screened then either take a step to improve your angle or just lean and look.
I have no intention of working with another umpire who feels he can make my calls for me. That's why we work with more than one umpire on the field, so as to split up the responsibilities. Who's to say your partner got a better look at the play then you did anyway. I believe in getting the call right, but I believe in getting the call right the first time. As soon as you start giving unsolicited advice you'll errode any confidence the games participants have in your crew. Tim. |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GarthB
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On the swipe tag at 1st when I'm in B/C, I prefer to say "Do you have a tag?" Instead of "Did he tag him?"
This way, if the PU wasn't watching, he can say "No." You aren't putting him on the spot as much with "Do you have a tag" as opposed to "Did he tag him". If he wasn't looking, and you say "Did he tag him" and he says "No", you may be looking at a manager coming out to get on both of you. If he says no to "Do you have a tag" the manager can't be upset with the PU, he's simply saying he never saw a tag. Just something I've thought about. Thoughts? |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by cbfoulds
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by GarthB
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But maybe their umpiring knowledge isn't as great as yours :-) |
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Justme
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The old ways are changing.... Our responsibility as umpires is to get the call right no matter what it takes. I tell my partners that they can come to me if I kicked a call. I don't mean that they should yell out "Hey Al you kicked that call he should have been safe", but my partner should approach me with additional information so that we, as a TEAM, can get the call right. |
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We shouldn't misinterpret the NCAA's instructions -- we are still expected to work hard and get our own calls. We aren't required or even expected to ask around when a coach asks us to unless we feel the other umpire has something to add to the discussion. The question I always ask: How do we know the partner has the "right" view? |
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In the 2-man system there is no way that an umpire can always be in the exact correct position to see every play 100% of the time....I don't care how good you think you are! The old ways are changing.... Our responsibility as umpires is to get the call right no matter what it takes. I tell my partners that they can come to me if I kicked a call. I don't mean that they should yell out "Hey Al you kicked that call he should have been safe", but my partner should approach me with additional information so that we, as a TEAM, can get the call right. [/B][/QUOTE] No, you should be seeking out Al if you want his input. With rare exception (mentioned above), this is the protocol for "seeking help" if you choose to seek help. [/B][/QUOTE] Come on Rich, are you telling me that while working the plate you've never seen a pulled foot or other things that your partner missed? Do you just let your partner die with "kicked calls"? It's not about the umpire's egos (any longer), it's about calling the best game you can (as a team). I don't mean that it takes away the responsibility from each umpire to hussle and get into the proper position to always make the correct call. I'm talking about when this doesn't happen (and it doesn't happen 100% of the time) the other umpire/s should, for the betterment of the game, help out IF they have anything to offer and they umpire who missed the call should be open to the help offered. Doesn't mean that he has to change the call but all info should be considered. My first post on this subject, IMHO, outlines the situations when help should be sought and/or offered. I've been doing this for a very long time....I remember the days of living or dying with the call...I like these days better..... Bottom line is that each of us umpires are going to umpire our games our way.... but it's still fun to kick it around in forums like this. |
<i> Originally posted by btdt </i>
<b> I have more but am interested in the situation others believe you should/shouldnt go for help. </b> The aforementioned is subject for many a debate and has come to fruition more in recent years due to the fact that Umpires in the PROS are huddling more so than in the past. In a 2 person system we need to strive to make our own calls and live and learn as they say. The fact is we will not get every call right. Also whose to say that indeed your partner had the better angle. Remember coaches are looking for "anything they can get" and if word gets around that you are an umpire who is constantly going to your partner get ready for long games. One thing to remember on the swipe tag / pulled foot. It's the defense who screwed up meaning they are the ones who made the poor throw etc. As BU you should "size the diamond out" meaning KNOW where you need to be in order to have the proper angle. Have I gone to the PU for help on the swipe tag / pulled foot? - YES but it was instances in which I couldn't get to the spot I wanted. example; R2 less than 2 outs. Ground ball to F6. Now the rule of thumb is when you as a player are on second less than 2 outs and the ball is hit to the left side of the infield, you freeze. However, we are umpires and not players anymore. If R2 for some uknown reason gives the appearance that he is going to third and F6 appears to make a play on him /her then as the BU in "C" you cannot get to the optimum spot should F6 then fire to first and the throw is bad. Also, it is best to make certain we are in the optimal spot when in concerns the lead runner. Does that mean the call at first is any less important than the call at third? In a 2 person system the answer is yes. Let's say the game is close, winning or tying run on second. "kicking the call at third base" IMO is far worse than "kicking the call at first". I know what you are thinking. Yeah but if there were 2 outs and we kicked the call at first it could prolong the inning. However, in my example I said LESS than 2 OUTS. With 2 outs one's mechanics are different and you can cheat more towards first base because more likely than not that's where the play is going. The bottom line is umpires should strive to make their own calls. Learn from your mistakes and in rare instances go to your partner. Pete Booth |
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The old ways are changing.... Our responsibility as umpires is to get the call right no matter what it takes. I tell my partners that they can come to me if I kicked a call. I don't mean that they should yell out "Hey Al you kicked that call he should have been safe", but my partner should approach me with additional information so that we, as a TEAM, can get the call right. [/B][/QUOTE] No, you should be seeking out Al if you want his input. With rare exception (mentioned above), this is the protocol for "seeking help" if you choose to seek help. [/B][/QUOTE] Come on Rich, are you telling me that while working the plate you've never seen a pulled foot or other things that your partner missed? Do you just let your partner die with "kicked calls"? It's not about the umpire's egos (any longer), it's about calling the best game you can (as a team). I don't mean that it takes away the responsibility from each umpire to hussle and get into the proper position to always make the correct call. I'm talking about when this doesn't happen (and it doesn't happen 100% of the time) the other umpire/s should, for the betterment of the game, help out IF they have anything to offer and they umpire who missed the call should be open to the help offered. Doesn't mean that he has to change the call but all info should be considered. My first post on this subject, IMHO, outlines the situations when help should be sought and/or offered. I've been doing this for a very long time....I remember the days of living or dying with the call...I like these days better..... Bottom line is that each of us umpires are going to umpire our games our way.... but it's still fun to kick it around in forums like this. [/B][/QUOTE] If the BU doesn't ask me to get involved on a pulled foot, I don't. If I'm the BU, the PU better not get invovled unless (and if) I ask him. End of story. If the PU tried to get involved, it would be my last game ever with that umpire and the call wouldn't change anyway. |
<i> Originally posted by Justme [/i]
<b> Come on Rich, are you telling me that while working the plate you've never seen a pulled foot or other things that your partner missed? Do you just let your partner die with "kicked calls"? It's not about the umpire's egos (any longer), it's about calling the best game you can (as a team). I don't mean that it takes away the responsibility from each umpire to hussle and get into the proper position to always make the correct call. I'm talking about when this doesn't happen (and it doesn't happen 100% of the time) the other umpire/s should, for the betterment of the game, help out IF they have anything to offer and they umpire who missed the call should be open to the help offered. Doesn't mean that he has to change the call but all info should be considered. </b> I disagree with aforementioned statement and agree with Rich. let's turn things around a bit. You are the PU and you call a strike on a pitch that is CLEARLY outside. Let's Freeze. According to your philosophy, I as BU should now for the betterment of the game change the strike call to a ball. Talk about chaos. Perhaps you had a good reason to call that pitch a strike. Not to start another thread but you could have been sending a particular batter a "message" As Ralph Cramdon used to say on the HoneyMooners "I have a BIG MOUTH" meaning keep Silent unless you are asked for help. Also, Another HUGE factor to consider is this: Did the play involve Continuous action? If there were multiple runners, chances are they reacted to the Umpires initial call. Now what are you going to do with those runners should you now change the call. Bottom Line: Do not give information unless asked to do so. NOW in advance mechanics and if memory serves Jon Bible wrote on the subject, there is a way to get your partners attention if they kicked the call, but again that's not the same thing as actually Giving the information without being asked. Pete Booth |
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I clearly stated in my earlier post the situations when you should go for help and those situations that you NEVER go for help. Strikes and ball calls were in the NEVER catagory (except for check swings). I also wrote that there are some calls that cannot be reversed without creating larger problems. In a later post I also stated that you don't yell out to your partner that you have some additional information for him that might help him. What I failed to write, mainly because I assumed that it was understood, that since you don't yell out to your partner that you must have some other prearranged method of contact between you. Maybe that's 'advanced mechanics' to some but even Baby Ball down to the HS level around here is beginning to use it. |
I saw a AAA umpire (International League) this past year miss a call at 2nd. He was probably the only person in the park who missed the play. There was a brief huddle after the defence complained and the call got fixed. His partners did not run out and tell him that he make a mistake they waited till the coach had his say and he asked for help.
Both teams have players and coaches that will assurably let us know if we miss something big (or small). That's part of their jobs. Let them do it. |
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If I have something different and he asks, I'll give it to him. If he asks. I once had a coach in my face (after he was in my partner's) for a missed-bag appeal. My partner erred and didnt watch the touch (AFAIK), but he didnt ask my help and I didnt sell him out. "I cant call what I didn't see, skip" I screw up also, and if I have doubts, I'll ask. If I don't ask, Im prepared to take the heat. If any call I make can be 'reversed on unsolicited appeal,' why am I out there? "instant replay reversals' have had a debilitating effect on NFL officials (IMO),lets not bring that into baseball. |
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I purposely stayed outside the fray just to see where it went. A few members, as always, insist that they know better than MLB umpires and are always in the correct position to make the call. 'Tis a shame that we don't get to see their highlight reels. There is simply no way to gain the perfect angle for every play - they would know that if they went to professional school. You do your best to obtain an angle that will allow for the maximum amount of outcomes. Denkinger is an extreme example while Joe West seems to regularly see things that other pros miss.
If you attended an NCAA clinic during the last TWO years, you would have known that the 'seek/offer help' mechanic is not only acceptable but required. It is apparent in professional baseball and NCAA, if you won't permit it in your games there is probably a reason why you aren't working the aformentioned levels. Amateur baseball benefits the most from umpires who have the intelligence to accept their humanity. I've provided the example of one of my most humbling kicked calls a few times here. NCAA game...a foul ball goes back to the screen and the catcher is an ace. He stops near the screen and I set up a few feet from him, watching him, not the ball, as we are taught. He spins at the last moment and my head practically came off trying to find the ball. I asked him to show me the ball and when I saw it was cleanly in his mitt, I signalled the out. The only problem was that I never saw it glance off the screen while one of my partners did. We had a runner on and he took off for third. My partner immediately came in - he was the third base umpire and when I saw him abandon his position without worrying about the runner I knew I was wrong. He asked me what I saw - our mechanic - and I told him. I asked if he saw something different - again, our mechanic - and he told me what happened. The call was corrected, the batter remained and the runner returned. If I stuck to my guns, I had an out and a runner on third - both wrong. I took some catcalls and was pretty mad at myself. But, we got it right and this was a few years before the mechanic was expected at that level. When I first told this tale a few members said that they always watch the foul ball while it is in the air. Watch the pros or even a good NCAA crew; they move with the player and don't take their eyes off him. Even the best mechanics and training will not prevent an umpire from getting a bad angle. Too many egos get in the way of this mechanic. You have another tool in your arsenal and should not be afraid to ask for or offer assistance. The game is about the players, right? [Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Feb 27th, 2006 at 05:57 PM] |
[QUOTE]Originally posted by GarthB
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I presented that "mechanic" to my association. They agreed with Blaine 100%: 87 to 0. Lah, me! Oh, I was one of the 87 who voted for Blaine's "change in mechanics." |
I have been to NCAA clinics. I have heard the instructions, usually read with a wink and a nod.
To paraphrase one of the few remaining writers at Off.com worht reading, Peter Osborne, work as your local association wants you to work. Another tidbit from Peter also applies: Work as you see the big dogs work. If I went up, unsolicted, to any umpire in the group that handles D-1, D-iii and JUCO in this area and told him I saw his play better than he did, that would be my last college game. If you work for an association that truly expects that kind of behavior, fine. Go for it. Despite the NCAA Committee's recommendation, I know of no NCAA umpire who work that way. Note to Carl: I was referring to Rollie's "Hey, you want to know what I saw...go ahead and ask me" story of a few months back. I am not familiar with Blaine's suggestion that umpires should always approach their partners unsolicited, but now that he's become a rat, anything's possible. I'll have to check. |
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I know what this wonderful "get it right" mentality has done to a lot of amateur umpires and coaches where I live. Umpires don't work hard and think a PU will bail them out, if necessary. Coaches expect umpires to get help every time they ask. Big improvement in my life, courtesy of the guys that work 3-man and 4-man in every freaking game. |
<i> Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue </i>
<b> I've provided the example of one of my most humbling kicked calls a few times here. NCAA game...a foul ball goes back to the screen and the catcher is an ace. He stops near the screen and I set up a few feet from him, watching him, not the ball, as we are taught. He spins at the last moment and my head practically came off trying to find the ball. I asked him to show me the ball and when I saw it was cleanly in his mitt, I signalled the out. The only problem was that I never saw it glance off the screen while one of my partners did. We had a runner on and he took off for third. My partner immediately came in - he was the third base umpire and when I saw him abandon his position without worrying about the runner I knew I was wrong. He asked me what I saw - our mechanic - and I told him. I asked if he saw something different - again, our mechanic - and he told me what happened. The call was corrected, the batter remained and the runner returned. </b> In the aforementioned example; the ball was FOUL meaning a reversed call doesn't effect the game. The runners simply return but what about this: R1/R2 1 out game tied HT up at bat. R1 moving on the Pitch. Sharp grounder to F4, R3 is heading home. F4 now makes a tag attempt on R1. Let's assume U2 rules out on the tag attempt and then F4 flips to F3 for the inning ending DP No runs score we go to extra innings. However, you as U1 <b> CLEARLY </b> see the missed tag by F4. According to your philosophy above, you would step in and Reverse the call but what do you do with R3? If U2 ruled safe in the beginning chances are F4 would have thrown home. In a 2 person system that involves <b> CONTINOUS </b> action you stick with the call right or wrong. If there is no Continuous action as in your example, then the call can be easily changed because it's easy to place the runners. A common example is a HR ruled Fair/Foul. Easily corrected. If it's Fair runners go home, if Foul runners return. If a HR is changed to a Double simply return the runner back to second base. IMO, that's why baseball is different than the other sports. Pete Booth |
"If I went up, unsolicted, to any umpire in the group that handles D-1, D-iii and JUCO in this area and told him I saw his play better than he did, that would be my last college game.
If you work for an association that truly expects that kind of behavior, fine. Go for it. Despite the NCAA Committee's recommendation, I know of no NCAA umpire who work that way" The first paragrapph is just a sad comment on that playing environment. My ego and talent are strong enough to get me there, but my colleagues wouldn't be at that level unless they were as talented. If one of them comes to me with help, like the NCAA video and clinics illustrate, I am only too happy to think that they are trying to do what is right for the game. I agree with your second paragraph, except that 'behavior' is a smug term for the recommended mechanic. Finally, yes you do. JJ, Sal and myself have all told you that the NCAA evaluation program does not tolerate umpire indiscretion. By stating that you will not adhere to the policy, you are saying that you are too dumb or arrogant to do what is proper. I've read your posts for years and know you aren't stupid, so that leaves the second choice. If your boss tells you to put the thingamabobs on the hoosywazits, you'd better do it if you want to keep the job. The NCAA, through Dave Yeast has told umpires to do this. Rich - Whether you work on a 60 foot field for a hotdog or on a 90 foot field for a couple hundred bucks, you still owe it to the players to get the call right. As a trained umpire, you see things that many others don't. We know that no matter what we do, our positioning and mechanics can be compromised by a player's actions. If you see a missed tag, dropped ball or missed base and ignore it, then shame on you. Your comment about waiting for the plate umpire to bail you out smacks of lunacy. The PU is not necessarily the better umpire and accepting help does not mean you are weak. The base umpire can and does make tougher calls in every game. My example alone shows where the PU needs the input of a BU. Lastly, if coaches will expect you to get help, who cares? They already question balls and strikes, safes and outs and fair/foul calls. Your coaches must have reason to think that you aren't covering it well. The moment we huddle to get a play right, the coaches know that all three of us are working together - no one is leading or showing the others up. If this is the case at your parks, lock your pride in the trunk after your pregame meeting. Thinking that you are above the game and not accountable to coaches and players is sad. If you want we can start another thread regarding coaches who question your calls. I'll be happy to provide the same info I give at my clinics to the newbies. |
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"...if an umpire is 100% sure he has additional information unknown to the umpire making the call ...." The "2d opinion" is not "additional unknown information...": the ball is on the ground..." - is. I cannot be "100% sure" I saw the banger any better than my partner did, so I keep my mouth shut unless asked: ditto the swipe tag or the pulled foot just as the ball arrives. I CAN be 100% sure the ball is rolling around in the dirt, or [it's happened...] the kid received the ball 5 feet off the bag. The point is, if the calling umpire is the only guy on the planet who DOESN'T know he kicked the call, MAYBE you should look for a way to communicate that information to him. |
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The second umpire is just as likely to be wrong in most cases as is the first umpire. We don't enjoy "who's right" contest on the field. Thus, we continue to provide our additional information when asked for it. While so many cite a new gentler MLB where huddles have replaced common sense many forget the umpires who have provided unsolicited information have just as often been censured as hailed. As I stated above, I do not know an NCAA umpire who subscribes to the oft referenced "guideline". [Edited by GarthB on Feb 27th, 2006 at 09:51 PM] |
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The same thing has happened to me, where ol' Smitty was to busy making a big show of his banger out call to see that the ball was lying there on the ground. Everyone in the yard saw it except your partner. This is an exception to the unsolicited help rule. In this case it is the right thing to point out the fact that the ball is on the ground and that the runner is not out. This is not a case of judgment on your partner's part, it's a case of not seeing the play, when everyone else did. |
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Unsolicited help is bad, but there are worse things. I prefer to think of this as a "Smitty Principle": when working with Smitty, do what you can to minimize the damage. And try not to work with Smitty too often, or you'll pick up bad habits. |
getting a foul off the screen that PU didn't see is similar to B1 bunt attempt that hits B1 and goes fair that PU didn't see. As BU, I'm helping immediately, based on 100% knowledge, on both without being asked.
On a ball lying on the ground, as in a banger at 1st, if BU has an out, I as PU, will give BU every chance to give in to everyone yelling "ask for help". If he refuses to ask, I would probably make the walk towards him so we can get together, but if he won't accept my offer, it's his A**, not mine. |
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