Hello all,

I was working the plate tonight and in the first inning a batter checked his swing and, to my mind, clearly held up. The catcher points to my partner in the B position who promptly rings up the strike. (Yes, we did talk about this in the pre-game.) I ended up going to him anyway after the damage was done, but I'm not sure that was the right thing to do. What's the best way to handle this situation?

[Edited by C'monBlue on Feb 21st, 2006 at 02:50 AM]

I would have grabbed him inbetween innings and reminded him to wait till you actually appeal to him.

I'd wait until after the game to talk to my partner. No sense making an issue of it during the game and attracting unwanted attention to yourself.

After all, it's more strikes, you'll go home earlier, and any crap from the coach will be directed at your partner. On the off-chance that the offensive coach comes to you to complain, send him out to your partner. Once your partner steals the call, it's his call; let him live or die by it. You don't own it anymore.

Don't let them complain...
 

If the offensive coach comes out to complain, warn him, then toss him. Questioning in this situation is questioning balls and strikes.

9.02
(a) Players leaving their position in the field or on base, or managers or coaches leaving the bench or coaches box, to argue on BALLS AND STRIKES will not be permitted. They should be warned if they start for the plate to protest the call. If they continue, they will be ejected from the game.
(c) ... On a half swing, if the manager comes out to argue with first or third base umpire and if after being warned he persists in arguing, he can be ejected as he is now arguing over a called ball or strike.

you quoted 9.02 from OBR is there a comparable FED rule re: balls and strikes?

Re: Don't let them complain...
 

i think bob was talking more along the lines of a coach coming out to find out why the BU said "yes he did" when he wasnt even asked, rather than whether or not the call was legitimately a strike.

<i> Originally posted by PWL </i>

<b> I would have notified the defensive coach of this. </b>

As an umpire, this is the WORST thing to do and I advise STRONGLY against it. Now for the rest of the game you have just "hung your partner out to dry", meaning his/her credibility will be challenged on every close call etc.

Do not tell Coaches anything as in the long run you will be burned.

There's a REASON in addition to a PRE-GAME we have a POST Game and these kinds of things should be left for after the game away from everybody.

In addition since you just alerted the defensive coach the game can turn into chaos because when you do need your partners help he will not be there and say "Hey skip talk to the PU it's not my call"

Bottom line here, do not go looking for RULES about protocol until AFTER the game. All that happend here is that the BU made a pre-mature call that we all have made at one time or another.

The time to get your point across is in the
the POST Game meeting and not DURING the game. Also, do not tell COACHES anything as IMO that would cause me not to work with someone more so than a pre-mature call.

Pete Booth

You're missing the point of Pete's response. It doesn't matter who asked for the appeal. The appeal was granted as soon as the BU signaled the strike. You can't say the appeal never happened when your partner allowed it. Right, wrong, or indifferent you need to live with that call and discuss it after the game. I don't care if it's the BU's first time on the field. You don't throw your partner under the bus.


Tim.

Re: LEARN 'EM UP GOOD
 

Quite easily. There IS a time when the base umpire should make an immediate decision on a half-swing when his partner hasn't asked him for help. I'll leave it up to the audience here to see if they know when this is. ;)

Re: LEARN 'EM UP GOOD
 

<b> I believe I wrote more than one sentence. </b>

I do not care how many sentences you wrote. The below is what I am opposed to.

<b> I would have notified the defensive coach of this. </b>

Why in the world would you notify the defensive coach?

As I mentioned, all that happened here is that the BU chimed in before the PU asked him to. After the game is when you have a "chat" with the BU

<b> Partners talk between innings sometimes, especially if they are new. I wouldn't consider this a hanging anybody out to dry situation. </b>

Once you notified the defensive Coach regardless of what you think you have "hung your partner out to dry". As mentioned, do not tell coaches anything.

No matter what the situation, we have to be a "team" in a 2 person crew. Once we start disagreeing between ourselves during the game or having "chats" with the coaches about our partners is when the game can turn "ugly" in a heartbeat.

We do not have to like each other but MUST respect one another and when something happens that we do not like, the time for airing our viewpoints is for AFTER the game not DURING it.

Also, one should Never "squeal" on our partners to a coach. That is called "backstabbing" and word will get around.

The aforementioned is harmless and easily corrected during a Post game meeting. As somebody once said "Do not sweat the small stuff"

Pete Booth

<i> Originally posted by C'monBlue [/i]

<b> The catcher points to my partner in the B position who promptly rings up the strike. (Yes, we did talk about this in the pre-game.) I ended up going to him anyway after the damage was done, but I'm not sure that was the right thing to do. What's the best way to handle this situation? </b>

As I mentioned in an earlier response the best way to handle the situation is AFTER the game. Also, once the BU signalled a strike it's a strike, no need to go to him again. Leave it alone until afterwards.

Pete Booth

Re: Re: Re: LEARN 'EM UP GOOD
 

That's one of the criteria. There are more.

Re: Re: Re: LEARN 'EM UP GOOD
 

You're halfway there.

uncaught 3rd strike

No, what I'm saying is that as soon as the BU made a signal it became a proper appeal. It doesn't matter that it was the catcher who pointed to him for the appeal. He blew it and allowed the appeal. To overturn him at this point is throwing him under the bus.

Answered.

The point is they did get the call when the BU made it. I would hope that I wouldn't be working with a partner that would do this all game. I might give him the stink eye for a second and hope he picks up on it, but I'm going to wait until our post game to discuss it with him.

I agree with you. However in this situation the appeal wasn't denied by the BU. If you deny it after he made the call you're overturning him and throwing him under the bus.


Tim.

OK, we're about 3/4 of the way there. ;)

HBP?

Tim.

w/ 2 0uts and 1st base occupied ???

I remain blissfully unaware of a situation where the BU should take a swing/no swing call away from the PU. Perhaps if the PU is knocked out cold by a pitch? That is the only time I would want any unsolicited help.

As far as the original situation, with a new umpire, I would casually call him over between innings and let him know in a nice way to always wait to be asked for help by the umpire, and only by the umpire.

There is nothing at all wrong with schooling a newbie between innings. Many times, a new umpire will make numerous mistakes in which I don't want him repeating them for the rest of the game. I also sometimes can't remember all the mistakes after the game, so I would rather discuss them while they are fresh on my mind. As long as you do it in a casual, conversational manner, without pointing or gesturing, the should be no problem. New umpires are usually open to learning, and can handle constructive criticism.

I dont know about the BU calling a checkswing unsolicited, but the PU should immediately ask for an appeal to the BU without coaching input on a 2-strike, wildpitch/passed ball situation (because it could be ruled an uncaught 3d strike).

Generally thinking I have things to do in that brief interval between innings. So if I want to speak to my partner it better be pretty darn important. In fact the only time I have was a partner who twice in the 1st inning got in position for the call and never made it. Psst P gotta make a visual and audible call or do something to let us know!

Can't do an appeal on a strike call. So we need a quick appeal when it's ball 4 with a runner on 1st base. The (apparently) forced runners need to know if they are at risk or not.

PWL just brought up something that's always fun to discuss.

On a HBP do you yell.

* "Foul ball"

* "Dead ball."

* "Time."


Tim.

Normal Mechanic:

PU waits to ask until defense asks.

Advanced Mechanic:

PU asks immediately when there's a check swing on an uncaught third strike and the batter can run (first open or two out).

Really Advanced Mechanic:

BU rules before being asked ONLY if it's a swing (if BU will agree with PU that it's not a swing, BU waits to be asked) on an uncaught third-strike when batter can run.

The situation I referred to is called a "voluntary strike."

As explained in 8.7 of the MLBUM:

On a HBP, I yell "time". If a batted ball/pitched ball hits the batter, it is not automatically a "foul" ball, so you don't yell that. If you ever called "dead ball" at a clinic, you know why you don't do that.

I might also add something along the lines of, "damn, that must have hurt!".

Bob P.

So I take it you've been to a clinic where someone has a shovel, Bob?


Tim.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by RPatrino

If you ever called "dead ball" at a clinic, you know why you don't do that.
*********

At the risk of flaunting my ignorance, I'll bite. Why would it be inappropriate to call "dead ball?" If the ball hits the batter or the bat, it's dead. If you call time, you are killing it anyway. I don't see the difference.

And what if you cannot immediately tell if the ball hits the bat? Yelling "foul" will get you into a heap of trouble if you then award the batter first base on said foul.

Saying "time" covers everything. After all, it's "time" whether it's a foul, HBP, dead ball strike, or dead ball ball.

usually, i have a long pre-game conference with my partner, if i'm not sure about a check swing, i don't wait defense asks for BU, i ask immediately to my partner. if he call before my request, i KILL HIM in the post-game conference. ( ah ah)
and... absolutely yes, HBP is TIME, if PU can't see the batter hit by ball. but don't forget, the HBP can be a ball too.......................right?

greetings from italy.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by C'monBlue

Quote:

Originally posted by RPatrino If you ever called "dead ball" at a clinic, you know why you don't do that. ********* At the risk of flaunting my ignorance, I'll bite. Why would it be inappropriate to call "dead ball?" If the ball hits the batter or the bat, it's dead. If you call time, you are killing it anyway. I don't see the difference.

CmonBlue,

It's an inside joke with umpire instructors who try to be funny, as in "I hope you brought a shovel so you can bury that "dead ball." I always found this to be extremely non-funny, since technically the ball is most sincerely dead in this case.

The point being that the proper mechanic is to say "Time."

Re: Good Reminder
 

Which is why if we didn't allow batters to wear helmets, our jobs would be much easier. Guy gets creamed with a ball in the head, he's sprawled on the ground with a bashed skull. Makes things so much easier to discern. :p

Without reading all these comments, did the base coach not understand that the PU has to ask for help?

I agree, if this happens to me as PU, I talk in between innings to make sure this does not happen again in the game.