Balk or bad mechanics?

[BigUmp56]

Well, yes, you have misrepresentd the facts. Every good pitcher above the age of 13 will vary his delivery to the plate. If they didn't the runner would key off of this and steal bases at will off of his first move. Didn't you ever play the game?

I can see it now. A right handed pitcher from the set with R2 only brings his knee up to a full balance point before delivering the pitch in the first inning.

The third inning comes around and with R1 only he slide steps as he delivers the ball in order to hold or freeze the runner.


Now you're going to call time and balk him for making a legal move because you think he has to use the same exact delivery on every pitch.

Funny stuff.

Tim.

[DG]

Originally posted by SAump
I wish I could read that RISING thread from time to time, but it was mysteriously deleted by who-knows-who.

Anyone care to comment on Follwing Along at the bottom of page 1.
I would certainly like to know if I misinterpreted these facts too.

You have misintepreted.

From the windup, the pitcher could raise his hands above his head while taking a large step backwards and in a continous motion deliver the pitch. On the next pitch he could raise his hands only chest high while taking a short step backwards and in a continuous motion deliver the pitch. Both are legal and different.

While making a stretch the pitcher could come set with his hands together at his chin and his non-pivot foot 3 feet from his pivot foot. On the next pitch his hands come pass by his chin and come to a stop at his belt with his non-pivot foot 2 feet from his pivot. Both are legal and different.

There is no requirement for consistent delivery throughout the game. There is a requirement that once you start your movement to deliver a pitch you can not stop.

Also, earlier you said "Pitcher cannot engage the pitcher's plate with his hands together." This is also innacurate. If a pitcher steps on the pitching plate with his hands together he must then stop, he can not in a continuous motion deliver a pitch. See case book plays 6.1.2F and 6.1.2G where the pitcher stepped onto the pitcher's plate in windup position with both hands together. In F balk was called because he dropped his pitching hand to his side. In G balk was called because he stepped back with his non-pivot and stopped. In neither was a balk called because he stepped onto the pitcher's plate with his hands already together. See also case book 6.2.1H where a move where the pitcher "intentionally contacts the pitcher's plate with one of the three legal positions, (a) hands together in front of his body" is described as a legal move.

Lastly, if a pitcher in the set comes set with his non-pivot foot on a direct line toward home and on the next pitch he comes set with that same foot 30 degrees (ie <45) toward 1B (from a line toward home) this is not a balk.

So you are 0 for 3 on your interps.

[Edited by DG on Feb 19th, 2006 at 03:16 PM]

[CJN]

It is completely LEGAL to use a different motion from pitch to pitch or batter to batter. You see this all the time, say you have a LH submarine style pitcher, oftentimes in MLB he will use the submarine motion when pitching to a LH batter, but will change to a 3/4 delivery when a RH batter comes up.

Another example is many times a pitcher will "drop down" to change the batter's view of the release. Both of these are perfectly legal examples of changing styles throughout the game. Balking these would be plain ridiculous.

[Reznor]

Ok Im good all. Thanks for the help. I spoke to an experienced umpire in my association and he cleared it up for me.

[largeone59]

SAump, you're up $hit creek without a paddle here... unless you pull an authoritative interpretation or opinion out of your a$$ somewhere to support your incorrect rulings, then you should really stop defending yourself. you're losing credibility with every additional post you use to defend your position- if you had any credibility to begin with...

[SAump]

You're getting twisted about my alleged misinterpretation of the rule book. Please step off my neck with your pivot foot first or I call a BALK. Habitual is NOT MY word, its the FED word and I told you were to find it. If you don't understand it and you continue to get a RISE out of it, then you can't imagine how to enfore the BALK/Ball rule. Address my simple explanations and stop twisting my words around. It's plain and simple for all to understand.

DG and D-man misled most of you with their legal delivery is not illegal posts. If you read my posts, I never used the words overhand, 3/4ers, submarine, or slide-step. I never said a pitcher could not change these delivery methods. I used the words consistent with motion and mechanics. I gave two official interpretations that comply with the BALK rules now in place in the NFHS rulebook. I clearly stated what I meant and most of you clearly misinterpreted my simple explanation.

But you want to continue the follwing argument anyway. Stop and READ it. A good pitching coach recognizes good mechanics. While taking the signals, the pitcher on the mound begins to turn his shoulder/arm in complete rotations before releasing the ball in any manner described above. Everyone know that he was only loosening up his shoulder before the real pitch. But he's not allowed to do it while standing on the pitcher's plate. BALK.

[BigUmp56]

Is anybody keeping score in this game?


I'd say it's two outs in the bottom of the ninth with the SAump team being blanked 9-0.


Tim.

[SAump]

Each young pitcher may have his own quirks in regards to hand and glove location, front shoulder movement or leg movement pause or hesitation or jerk; before he releases a pitch towards the batter.

I think DG, that is my original explanation and that you use identical words for those who may have misunderstood my comment above. Now you take that and run with it into any LEGAL delivery as long as it's legal. How polite? I suppose I wouldn't argue with the legality of that ONE.

You also insinuate that a pitcher who 1) raises his hand over his head on each and every windup, may now alter his motion and 2) come set and deliver a quick pitch ( by not raising his hands over his head as usual) on a 3-2 count. Balk! I saw your delivery, 3) the same step backward and raising the glove up to the chest/face. A simple adoption of option 3 to argue against option 1 because option 2 is now ILLEGAL. I guess that works for you behind the barn.

You also insinuate that a pitcher who comes set facing the batter with a runner on first on each set position, may then alter his position and come set from a 40 degree foot/shoulder at anytime during the course of a ball game. Balk! I guess YOU need PRO instruction. If a pitcher begins in a position and come sets from a 40 degree foot/shoulder angle, it is perfectly legal. He may continue to LEGALLY pitch from that stance throughout the course of the ballgame. However, if he does it only once and only to get an advantage on the RUNNER, BALK IT while its HOT!

Please take responsibility for misleading any of our younger umpires who may not have your experience. Please explain the rules as written and stop twisting the original lines. A pitcher cannot step onto the rubber with both of his hands together and pitch. I know, I know. You stated that as long as he pauses long enough, it is perfectly legal. But again Doubleday, YOU ARE WRONG. A pitcher may pitch from the windup or set position. The play you describe sounds like it is perfectly LEGAL from the windup or set position. However, from either, he must properly dismount and remount. Something you probably know all about and are really good at.

[Tim C]

First, I find it interesting when we have a thread that is only kept alive by ONE poster who thinks, honestly, that he is correct.

So let me be as clear as I possibly can:

It is totally legal for a pitcher:

1) To change anything about his wind-up at any time. Let's say that a pitcher has been using the 1930's style "double pump" wind up for 6 1/3 innings . . . in the seventh inning with 3 balls and 2 strikes ona hitter the pitcher changes to a "Don Larsen" type no wind-up delievery. This is totally legal as long as he was in contact with the pitcher's plate. There are no rules that say he needs to use the same wind-up during a game.

2) Can change anything he wants when pitching from the set position as long as he clearly stops before the delivery. He can set up with an open stance on one pitch, a closed stance on another pitch, he can do an extavangant movement of lifting his arms far above his head on one pitch and then, on the next pitch simply move his hands together in front of his stomach.

Now I have no idea what the people in San Antonio think like. I will make the statement that they do understand the pitching rules . . . we just have one umpire from that area that has a misunderstanding of many rules . . . the pitching rule is only today's issue.

[Rich]

Originally posted by SAump
"Bad Mechanics - Technically, from the wind-up, one doe not have to wind-up. The pitcher could just deliver the ball. ... His motion must be consistent throughout the game. ...His mechanics must be consistent throughout the game, or it could, by rule, be a BALK. "

The pitcher from the wind-up CANNOT change his motion/mechanics throughout the game. If he comes set and delivers a pitch, he must continue that motion throughout the game. If he raises his arms above his head and delivers a pitch, he must continue that motion throughout the game. If he alternates between these two legal motions to home plate, by rule, the first one could be called a QUICK PITCH and a BALK/Ball.

Similarly, if Fernando turns his back and looks up during the windup, he could easily get away with a quick pitch by delivering the ball straight to the plate. Yet, he didn't do that. His motion was consistent throughout the entire game. Good pitchers have a consistent motion, quirks and all, to the plate. I have yet to see a MLB pitcher vary his deliveries consistently throughout a ballgame. I never said it couldn't be done, I just imply that it is a RARE combination of events at the MLB level. I suppose anything is possible in the BUSH leagues.

Also, the pitcher's shoulder/feet from the set postion may angle out towards first base (<45o) or angle straight toward home plate throughout the ballgame. The pitcher would be restricted to choose only one. If he alternates between these two legal positions, by rule, the first one is NOW ILLEGAL and should be called a BALK every time afterwards. The runners would advance 1 base.

Sorry, chief, you're just making stuff up. A pitcher can deliver differently every pitch of the game if he so chooses, as long as the umpire doesn't judge a quick-return pitch.

Do me a favor. Find your little pearl of wisdom somewhere in the pitching rules or case plays and post them for we unwashed masses.

[largeone59]

OK, SAump, this will clarify your position for all, so there is no confusion.

What will you call in this situation:

A pitcher delivers like Valenzuela the whole game, then the next pitch he pitches one like Randy Johnson.

Both were done legally for their respective styles.

Are you calling a balk? Yes or no?

[SAump]

I have been saving this last bit of wisdom for those who incorrectly believe anything or everything is possible.

If a pitcher is ambidextrous, the umpire shall require the pitcher to face a batter as either a left-handed or a right-handed pitcher, but not both.

That, my friends, cuts down on about half of all the possibilities these other guys mention. Everything else in their bullpen has definitely been exaggerated for our viewing pleasure by at least another quarter.

Now I'll give it a rest to find the basis for my two simple BALK rulings. I would appreciate any and all information pointing me in the RIGHT direction.

[SAump]

I repeat, "His motion must be consistent throughout the game." That also includes any (LONG) pause, which I will now take before my next delivery. By the way, TIME is a relative concept.

[Tim C]

I repeat:

SAUmp you're just plain wrong.

But that isn't a new thing.

[jicecone]

Originally posted by SAump
I have been saving this last bit of wisdom for those who incorrectly believe anything or everything is possible.

If a pitcher is ambidextrous, the umpire shall require the pitcher to face a batter as either a left-handed or a right-handed pitcher, but not both.

And are you saying that if he pitches right handed to one batter, your going to call a balk if he pitches left-handed to the other.

SAump, give it up and just admit your wrong here. Hell, even I will be the first to admit that I learn new things all the time. Give it up guy, JUST GIVE IT UP. Your are weally, weally wong.