Can you legally and without liability of being put out, overrun first base on a base on balls? I know codes differ, and this topic has been touched on before, but here it is again. Sorry if I'm being repetative!

JJ

No, you can be put out if tagged.

Hmmm. Actually, I went to ask.com and asked, and was directed to the official forum - an old thread from last year - and it says there it's legal in Pro and NCAA, but you can't overrun first in FED. Even gave a Pro rule reference....
I think I'll leave this thread up for awhile just so others can see it, even though my question has been answered.

JJ

Well,
 

In OBR there is no penalty for the over running . . .

In FED you cannot over run without putting yourself at risk of being put out.

-------

My favorite FED play:

3 balls 2 strikes, first base unoccupied.

Curve ball in the dirt.

Batter may, or may not have swung.

Ball rolls away from F2.

Batter runs to first,

F2 throws to first but batter runner beats the throw and crosses base into the outfield grass.

F3 walks out and tags him.

Catcher then appeals to BU: "Did he go?"

So at the FED level you have:

If the batter walked, "no he didn't go!" (i.e. was awarded first base without liability to be put out) he would now be out.

But if the batter struck out, "Yes, he went!" you would have a runner that is safe (as he can overrun on a third strike not caught) when he actually potentially made an out.

Makes my head hurt sometimes.

Not..... gonnna......... respond................

I'm glad somebody said it first, Mike.


Tim.

Me too, me too . . .
 

I over-estimated some of the potential audience.

[Edited by Tim C on Feb 9th, 2006 at 10:12 AM]

Brain Pulsing...... fingers straining........ SANITY DRAINING........ Lightbulb switched to off! No response!

I believe that Tee implied a verbal call in this situation. Is your high horse maybe a donkey?

Bob

Wow, that's even worse than I thought it was.

I originally someone was saying that BU should verbalize his decision on the call before being asked (awful!). I now know that he was saying PU (!) should verbalize BU's call before F2 asked PU to appeal to BU.

Yeah, that makes a LOT of sense. I missed Carnac's School of Umpiring.

Crap. I've been trolled. I really should delete this, but I can't.

I Carl's book, he states that some crews skip the whole "wait for the PU to ask the BU" step when the both teams needs to know and it could affect the play.

He goes on to call it the advanced mechanic, when the BU doesn't wait for an appeal and makes the call in those instances.

Hummmm???

PWL:

In FED the note to rule 10-1-4 is what you're looking for. It's say's the UIC "sometimes" asks for aide. That leads me to believe that it not mandatory, although I can't imagine why someone would not go for help when asked.

In OBR, it's a different story. The rule say's the PU "must" ask for help.


Tim.

Yes if the catcher makes the request you should ask your partner.

And if you SAY "He didn't go, did he?" the craphouse is going to explode if your partner comes back with his honest answer of "YES HE DID!"

Pregaming this subterfuge is not "fair to both teams."

I'm going to make a leap here. Please don't disappoint me, or I won't do it again. Because your most recent post seemed more honest than usual, I'm going to assume, PWL, that your responses are not trolling this time, and you really mean what you said...

God help me.

OBR has decreed that the swing/no-swing is BU's call. If you are asked, you ask your partner. PLEASE don't ever lead the witness like you proposed. It's HIS call, 100%.

FED has decreed that if PU got a good look at the swing/no-swing, he CAN decide not to appeal to partner. If you got a good look, and KNOW it was no swing, don't appeal. Don't try the "He didn't go, did he?". First, it will piss off 75% of the coaches who hear you phrase it that way, and second, it opens a HUGE $hitstorm if partner disagrees with you. (Obviously, if you thought he swung, you would have called it a strike in the first place). if you DIDN'T get a good look, and you're asked to appeal - do so, again, without leading questions.

Now, to this specific situation, I've seen/read the mechanic that allows PU, if he felt the swing was borderline and it is important to other baserunners or the flow of the game to know if it was a strike immediately, PU can appeal to his partner without being asked by the defense. This might be a play where PU might want to employ this mechanic.

But PU would never verbalize this call, as you suggested early. PU simply calls it a strike if he swung, a ball if he thinks he didn't, and appeals to partner if appropriate as above.

Hmmm,
 

Well now we are headed for the PU saying: "No, he didn't go!"

Still a mechanic I would never use, but it is acceptable and is taught.

I thought this group of astute readers would have already understood the issue of asking, or not: timing of request: and what can be offered when.

I just wanted to post a play that has odd possibilites.

But again, we see horribly untrained jv umpires answering in the most incorrect way possible.

If you don't say: "no he didn't go!", then you never have to worry about your pards saying something different.

Of course, this is just my opinion.

Ok, here's my take.

PU never says, "no, he didn't go". PU says "ball". If asked, he asks his partner for help. If you feel you should ask before the offensive team requests, go for it, for sure on a dropped third strike situation.

PU on a check swing could say, " he went", and signal his strike. I just signal the strike.

Is that what we are talking about here?

Bob P

Ahem,
 

Bob:

There are a group of umpires, championed by CArl Childress, that say a PU should say: "Ball, No! he didn't go!"

This comment, in their opinion, will head off requests to get help.

I, exactly like you, verbalize "Ball" and let stuff fall where it may.

My sincere apology to all who now have been drug into an educational treatment by possibly the most inept umpire on the internet.

Aw Tim, have you forgotten Dumbdrum already?

Here's the problem I have with what Carl suggests.

For a long time now I've been working OBR games in several different organizations. One organization in particular follows OBR extremely close with very few modifications. One of the things that are consistent with the exact wording of OBR is the UIC *must* go for help on defensive appeal of a check swing.

What a $h1t$torm would be created if I said "No, he didn't go!" from behind the plate and then have the defense ask for an appeal. I now *must* go for help by rule and if I have a Smitty partner overturn my call, we have a mess.

I'll stick to calling "ball" if he didn't and "he went" when he did.


Tim.

What Bob said.

So, now its "ball, no he didn't go" and soon it will be "ball, that was way high, a little outside, too".

Now, I've heard those kind of verbalizations before, and it's downright WRONG!

Bob P.

Can we get back to the original topic of this thread?

I believe someone said under OBR one can overrun first on a walk and not be out if tagged. I've read conflicting reports of this, both from supposedly authoritative sources, too.

If the BR over-runs first base on a ball four base award in OBR he does so with liability to be put out


JEA

The 3-2 pitch to the batter is a wild pitch. The batter sprints to first. ..realizing he has no chance to advance to second, he overruns first base. The alert catcher throws to the first baseman who tags the batter-runner before he can return to the base. Is this a putout...or...may the batter-runner overrun first in this situation?

RULING:

This is a put out. The batter is "awarded" first base on ball four but he is liable to be put out after reaching first base.


Tim.

Hmmm,
 

This is not how I remember it (now that's a surprise) . . . I will ask at the Evans clinc in PDX March 2.

As I remember 7.08j says he can overrun. But I can't remember where I parked my car right now so consider the source.

And of course I assumed that there was no intent to advance but a simple "run through" the bag or step off.

Thanks Tim.



[Edited by Tim C on Feb 9th, 2006 at 06:55 PM]

And from the J/R manual:

This is under the section dealing with the batter-runner out/not out.

This appears to contradict Evans' book. Tim, let us know what you find out next month at the clinic.

[Edited by UMP25 on Feb 9th, 2006 at 06:55 PM]

Evans is wrong.

MLBUM:

5.13 NOTE: The batter-runner is not prohibited from overrunning first base on a base on balls (i.e., the batter-runner may overrun first base on a base on balls and is not in jeopardy of being put out provided he returns immediately to first base). (See Official Baseball Rules 7.08(c)(EXCEPTION), 7.080), and 7.10(c).)

Duh! I knew I had read that before.

That was the contradiction to which I referred earlier. I neglected to look in my copy of the MLBUM, which, as you indicate, says the B-R is not necessarily out if overrunning it. Case close it would seem.

There are two issues here. And <i>Baseball's Knotty Problems</i> explains. In brief (without all the history): If a batter-runner runs by first (thinking he could try for second on a wild pitch but changes his mind), he cannot be tagged out. But if he walks and stops at first, he can be tagged out if he steps off the base. It's up in the air whether he is out if he steps off the base <I>away</i> from the plate. Everybody knows he's out if he steps off toward second or back toward the plate.

Touching this other thing, as Henry VIII said in <i>A Man for All Season</i>: Tee emailed to say that there was a difference of opinion here about calling the half swing. Here's my reply:

<blockquote>I do it the old-fashioned way:
"Ball. No, he didn' go!" Cuts down on appeals and on overturned strike calls.
"Strike!" Point to batter: "Yes, he went." Cuts down on batters turning around and asking: "On the plate or on the swing?"</blockquote>Someone said he didn't want to say, "No, he didn't go," and then get overruled because that would make him look stupid.

That doesn't make any sense. The plate umpire is "saying" the batter checked his swing when he simply calls "Ball!" For if he thought it was a strike....

Saying "No, he didn't go!" acknowledges you saw a half swing. For whatever reason, you felt the batter held up. "Check him, check him." So you check, and Old Smitty says: "Yes, he went."

Big deal. Perhaps he <i>did</i> go. Sometimes our view is blocked, or we blink, or flinch, or go to sleep for a moment.

If you forcefully point out you saw the pitch and, four feet from the batter, decide he didn't go, you're going to get overturned a lot less often.

Besides, you want a reason? That's the way professional clinicians teach it.

CC wrote: <i>It's up in the air whether he is out if he steps off the base away from the plate.</i> in the context that he stopped on the base first.


I wouldn't have a problem with an out in this case. The whole purpose of the overrun rule (exception actually) was so the runner did not have to stop at first, which allows a greated chance of reaching safely. I think that if he does stop at first the purpose has been served and the rule (exception) expires at that point.

<b>Evans is wrong.</b>

Thanks.

I read that JEA case play a couple of weeks ago and felt quite frustrated, since I thought we had settled long ago that in OBR the BR <i>could</i> overrun on ball 4.

I was going to query that JEA play on this site but didn't have the stomach.

I think the problem with the JEA sitch is that no mention is made of where the runner ended up after he decided he could not advance to second. If he rounded first and stopped three steps toward second and then decided to return to first, he is in jeopardy. If he runs past first, but makes no effort to advance toward second and if he returns immediately to first, he is not in jeopardy.

I had the situation where the runner drew the base on balls, ran to first, stepped on the base and stopped about 6 feet off of first, in fair territory. Without requesting time, he proceeded to remove his ankle protector, and alertly the catcher threw to F3 and they tagged him. I called him out. Thoughts?

Bob P

IMHO, I believe that if the batter overruns or "overwalks" first base, then as the MLBUM indicates, he's not liable to be tagged out. If, on the other hand, the batter simply trots to first on a base on balls, acquires it with no valid reason, so to speak, to overrun or overwalk it, but steps off, he can be tagged for the out.

I look at it this way: if his going off the base is part of his original running to first then overrunning it--call it a continuous action play, in a sense--then he's not out if tagged.

What about the " returns immediately to first" part of the rule? We have to make a "judgement" about what we consider immediately. Player's can't over-run or "over-walk" 1b and just stand around, IMHO.

Bob P.

You aren't searching for a reason to call an out on a ruling you don't like are you?

Rich, of course I would never try to manufacture an out where one doesn't exist. And if I kicked this call, then I learned something. It happens so rarely in FED ball, as BR's don't have protection from over running 1b.

Bob P.

The Evans ruling isn't "wrong;" it is simply obsolete. He wrote it back in the early 90's. MLB didn't address the issue until publication in 2002 of the MLB Umpire's Manual, which changed the precedent that had previously been established by Evans' ruling.