Saturday, was our first association on field confab. It was in a driving rain, and was cold as a well digger in Alaska.
However, we were starting our season...YIPPPEEE!!!

Now, my peeve. I use the Gerry Davis system. I have for the last 5 years, well since 2000, after Gerry gave me an overhaul at a clinic. My issue is with my peers and trainers who don't know the first thing about this system. Some of the upgrades were:

1) Hey, get your hands off your knees, your gonna get hurt!
2) Move closer to the catcher, you are too far back.
3) You work wayyyyy tooo high. You're gonna miss the low pitch.

LAH ME!!! Play ball.

Bob

Gerry really needs to do a decent video, packaged with a small club for those who try to 'help' ...

In my association, I am the only one using the GD. So far nobody has tried to correct me. God save them if they do, because they are going to miss dinner due to the 2 hour lecture I'll give them !

I got the same thing from my association. It dies down after a while once they see that they cannot shake you up. Be advised that I am not aspiring to climb any higher in my association (I am winding my umpiring career down). If you are a young buck, you may have to bow to the old fart's wishes (in your association).

Go with what makes you comfortable. I do not get close to HS catchers do to their inabilities to make contact with me. I drop my hands in my squared position between my legs but at times I do get lazy and put them on my knees. Of course, it is not long until I am reminded why not to have my elbows out, foul tips hurt.

Foul tips hurt?

My Oh My!
 

Sorry Bob!

Ignorance is scary sometimes.

We have a Jim Evans Clinic the first weekend in March. I have already been told that for the first two days I MUST work heel-to-toe. On Sunday I will be "allowed" to work Davis.

Well the instructors have a little problem coming. I will not give up any cage work practice to use a stance that I will never use again.

People who don't get the "Davis System" always say the exact things that you list. They do not understand but it does not matter to them. They parrott things they have been told.

Those of us that are 5 years deep in the system and have been taught by Gerry (or his instructors) really understand it better than even professional instructors (unless it is one of the MLB guys that use the stance).

Bob, this is a review from our regional evaluator last year on my plate game:

1) "You're way to deep
2) "You're way to high
3) "You're going to get hit much more often using the stance.
4) "You shouldn't put your hands on your knees
5) "GREAT GAME, I don't think you missed a pitch."

ANYONE that thinks the hand and arm placement of the "Davis System" is either lazy or will make you subject to more injuries have never worked the stance or are just a little slow to recognize change.

I wouldn't know about "foul tips hurting" as I have never been hit by one.

New season for me and I would like to find out more about the GD System. Can anyone direct me to learning opportunities - websites, books, videos, etc.?

Thanks in advance.

Here you go, Tony.

Good luck.

Tim.

http://childress.officiating.com/?d=...is+Part+II.pdf

Is it not definitionally impossible to be hit by a foul tip? :)

BU56 thanks for the site. I will go there immediately.


mc - very observant on your part.
I can't believe I didn't see that right away.
. . . . . . . oh . . . .yes I can!!
It's those little things I keep working on and keep thinking " I've got it " and realize I still need work.
Nice observation though.

Tee, how right you are. My observer took about 5 minutes placing balls in various parts of zone while watching my eyes, just to be sure that I actually got a "good" look at the whole zone.

"You're sure you can see that pitch?"

Irekfy, putting my hands on my knees provides me a rock solid lock in mechanism, keeps my head in the same place for every pitch and keeps me square to the pitcher. I don't consider it lazy, and I'm not doing it because I'm tired. If you drop your hands between your legs, what is your lock in mechanism?

Bob

[Edited by RPatrino on Feb 1st, 2006 at 12:57 PM]

I am in my 4th year of using the GD system and I am a younger umpire (24). I am lucky to be in an association that promotes the GD system and actually encouarages using it ( about 80 - 90% of the top umpires in the association us it).

As for getting hit by more pitches: I took a lot more shots by foul balls (i still have not been hit by a foul tip)when i work heal-toe my first two seasons.

General GD questions, possibly repeated.

Of the persons who have adopted the GD plate stance, and are working it as taught and intended...

Do any of you work, "lower level" 90 foot baseball? Non shavers? I ask this because it appears to a layman observer that this system would be a "bit" more dangerous for persons behind lesser skilled 14-16 year old catchers, and "wilder" pitchers.

GD looks good to me, and I am considering making this an OPTION in my association training, for persons that either want to go that way, or may benefit from the advantages of GD. However, I am concerned about the question above?

IS GD a good option for NEW umpires, or should it be reserved for upper level guys doing upper level ball?

Mike,

Gerry originally created the GD system specifically for amateur umpires. It's very easy to learn, creates a rock solid view of the pitch / strike zone & greatly reduces the risk of tangling with inexperienced catchers.

As an instructor, I have been teaching GD for three years now (Yes, I have the usual run-in's with evaluators). Almost without exception, every student that has been taught GD has stayed with it, even with pressure to change from evaluators.

The good news is that GD has now been accepted in our area as a standard rather than a gimmick.

OH YEAH................
 

Having used the GD system for three seasons,and having worked every level from high school varsity to (oh, the shame !!) Little League, the system is great at any level of play.




Doug

The GD system is extremely easy to teach. Try to teach the LL method of heel-toe, one arm across chest, put your hand behind your knee. When do I switch, when don't I???

I made a decision years ago as the UIC of our youth umpire association to only teach the GD system. We teach the hands on knee stance for working the bases, why not behind the plate?

We preach to keep your head still, yet we see umpires with the "floating" head, who move up and down consistantly. I've seen umps start with their hands on knees prior to the pitch and then put them between their legs, or heaven forbid, behind their backs. And they wonder why they are always getting chirped at about their "consistant" zones.

Bob

Yep, me.....
I use GD in ALL levels, including the [small # of] U12 games I do on 60'. I DO NOT get hit more @ "lower" levels, or indeed @ any level, than I did as a "scissors guy". I DO get hit [took a fast ball square on the cup in a HS Varsity contest last year].

IMHO, GD can be used by anyone - the rock-solid lock-in, the absolutely consistent "look" at each pitch, and the wider-angle view from farther back all would be helpful to the novice umpire. Biggest problem is exactly what you are asking about, however. MANY newbies [and a lot of old farts, as well] are so fixated on avoiding any possibility of getting drilled that they WANT to hide close behind the catcher as much as possible: GD makes 'em nervous as a cat in a room full of rockers.

As someone who uses GD, when i work lower levels i do tuck my hand closest to the batter (depending on righty or lefty) However this is only for teams with tiny catchers. As soon as you hit high school GD is amazing

alex

Tee - I wish your post had been there before I submitted my "Mindsets . . " article. Would have made a good example.

what do you mean by this? you tuck your hand where?

I'm a 3yr guy now
 

And I used my GD stance in all the games I did last year about a total of 65 or so. This was all level of ball from 12 - 20yrs old and some senior ball. I'm using it in Canada and the level of ball is VASTLY inferior to what you would face anywhere in the states if you are dealing with travelling teams. I am 6'3" tall and about 300lbs, so I am quite the target, I got hit by the ball on probably 1-2 times a game, 90% of the time in the shinpads as catchers missed the ball or it was fouled off. Most of the other shots were in the Head. Prior to GD I would be hit 1-2 times in the legs a game, 1-2 times in the upperbody and head during the game. So my numbers are WAY Way down.

This past season I actually took one in the hand, hurt, but no more than taking one in the forearm. Which I did - 2-3 times a season before switching.

I think he means behind his knee. I have seen a few guys do this because they are afraid of their hands getting hit. But is also doesn't allow them to get locked in.

I'm currently doing indoor games. The teams playing (12U travel teams) use the winter league to develop new players and work on new positions and skills. It's the perfect time for umpires to do the same thing!

Last week, my curiosity piqued by some posts on these boards, I decided to try the GD stance for the first time. Or, rather, I used the GD stance as best as I understood it at the time. The link to the handout posted ealier in this thread gave me a few more pointers and a better understanding of how this system works.

A few impressions from a first-timer:

It felt strange! Which would be expected after hundreds of games using a typical "heal/toe, in the slot" stance.

You do seem to get a pretty good look at the pitch all the way into the mitt.

Those low pitches sure do look different! I had the sensation of looking down through the zone, compared to my usual "eyes at the top of the zone". Again, that would be expected. The view is different, but certainly not inferior.

I felt exposed and found myself flinching on some pitches that I would not normally flinch on. Probably just a reaction to the more upright stance.

Two of the positions that teams naturally work on in this league are pitcher and catcher. The wildness of the new pitchers and the lack of skills with the new catchers made things interesting back there!

This is a common problem with the younger catchers, but some of them want to set-up really close to the plate. With me being further back, my view of the plate seemed blocked at times. I was compensating by staying a little bit higher and moving closer to the catcher. Right approach? Wrong approach?

I wasn't really on the field long enough (2 one-hour timed games) to gather much data on the fatigue factor. My initial impression was that my legs were under less stress than usual.

I'm not sure what my local associations position is on the GD stance. Our meetings start next week and I plan on asking about that. At our past clinics, things were pretty much limited to the box and scissors. And, of course, we've always been told to never rest your hands on your knees.

More games tomorrow! I think that I'll experiment some more and see what happens.





[Edited by BretMan on Feb 3rd, 2006 at 01:22 AM]

The LL method? <i>(guffaw)</i>

I'm serious Garth !! Try teaching that stance, better yet, try using it. I challenge anyone who supports the way LL teaches mechanics to explain the rationale behind how they instruct plate umpires.

Bob

Let the experts decide, but consider:

Perhaps it is easier to teach and learn. LL umpires are "dad's from the stands" or former coaches who want to keep involved after their kids graduate, but only do one game a week.

Perhaps it is easier on the knees and legs of someone who isn't in the best of physical shape.

The players are a lot smaller. Calling for 4 to 5 feet tall batters may be better served by this stance than in a game with 6 foot tall batters.

Rich, nothing is harder to me then trying to teach brand new umpires how to get into a plate stance that looks like its better suited to squattin in the woods then working a baseball game. You have no more than 60 minutes at the beginning of the season for this training. After they leave the clinic, all bets are off for the most part.Thats where you see all the different "variations" of box, heel-toe, scissors, modified scissors, or the old "pop a squat".

The Davis System is super simple. You widen your stance, put your hands on your knees, lower your butt. Voila! Now all they have to learn is to get in the slot, keep your head still and call strikes. Anything else makes no sense.

Smaller batters, you widen your stance. Simple.

Bob

Excuse me if I am misunderstanding things here. I hear a lot of talk about heal toe and GD system. As I have read on the subject the GD system is more about the lock in and position in relation to the plate and catcher than about foot position. In fact, the gd system actually gives the option of a square or heal toe stance. As to the slot vs the GD system, by definition of where you set up in the GD system you are in the slot. The slot is defined as the area between the plate and the batter.

Bob:

What's so hard about teaching this stance? The only difference in this stance Bill Davis is teaching ~vs~ the stance taught at the LL Central Region training school is the placement of the left hand. The LL training asks that you remove your hand from the front of the knee, clinch it into a fist, and lockin with the forearm.

http://www.geocities.com/midamerican...inic/Bill1.jpg

In fact, LL teaches this exact stance taught at Evans.

http://www.umpireacademy.com/Images/mirror.jpg


Tim.

[Edited by BigUmp56 on Feb 8th, 2006 at 08:36 PM]

Hmm,
 

The illustrations you have included are not the stance as it was taught to me.

At all,

Tee:

Here's the link to the cage work photo gallery at Evans.


http://www.umpireacademy.com/introduction.html


Tim.

i used to have a good picture of GD working the plate during a cubs/sox spring training game, im looking for it. neither of the images shown are of the GD variety.

Correct Brian,
 

Neither picture are of the Davis stance.

I guess it is also new that some teach the stance with a "heel-to-toe" reference.

We were taught to be double wide and a straight line from toe-to-toe . . . that makes it a square only stance.

I had never heard, until today, that someone teaches it angled.

No, there not of the GD stance. They are photos illustrating to Bob P. what's taught as the heel to toe stance at the LL CR. Garth and Bob seemed to not like what LL was teaching and my point was that Evans teaches the same thing as one of their plate stances.


Tim.

Here's one of our favorites using the GD stance.

http://www.laist.com/attachments/la_...s206-thumb.jpg


Tim.

"I had never heard, until today, that someone teaches it angled."

There is an article by, I believe, Mr. Childress, that someone on this board referred us to last summer, that mentions that the GD system can be employed using either a squared (balanced) or a heel-toe stance. Last fall, I tried both, and felt that there was little difference, although I will work this spring from the squared (balanced) stance, as that is seen as being preferable to most (like you, apparently).

The way the GD was taught by GD is to use the squared up approach. Not heel-toe.

Now as to my "issues" with the LL method, it mostly relates to lack of a consistant lock in mechanism. If you are using the forearm that goes across your belly as your lock in mechanism then you are setting up too low, IMO. The way I was taught is that you must have a lock in mechanism that is able to be FELT, like when your elbows are LOCKED and your head is solid. I get no such feel from the LL method as it is taught.

Bob

That picture doesn't exactly give it a ringing endorsement!

Big Ump56
 

Evans does not teach the hand behind the knee as you pictured. The hand is on the knee as in the GD stance. You just found a picture on the Evan's site of a student doing it WRONG.
So Evan's does not teach LL mechanics!!!

I guess that makes a lot of sense. Bill Davis who is an instructor for Div 1 umpires teaches the wrong stance.

And, Jim Evans allowed a photo of a student using the wrong stance to be put up as an illustration on his web site.


Tim.

Tim:

Easiest way I know to find out how Jim teaches anything is to attend his academy or one of his week-long classics. I enjoyed the hell out of his Desert Classic and had planned on going again this past fall until it was cancelled.

You may be surprised by what you'll see first hand. And, you will definitely go home a better umpire. Everyone does. (Except maybe that one guy that kept saying, "That's not how I learned it at Regionals." Everyone tired of him quickly and even though he kept getting the same opportunities to learn as the rest, he just didn't open his mind to them. What a waste.)

Garth:

What exactly does he teach as a proper stance?


Thanks,

Tim.

Uh, I think you missed his point.

But what the hell, ask him again.

Tim . . .
 

We have a three day Evans camp on March 3, 4, & 5.

I have been told that I will be "required" to work the stand heel-toe that is taught at school during days one and two. On Sunday I will be "allowed" to work Davis.

I guess they will ban me from the first two days as I will not work another stance.

lah Me!

Re: Tim . . .
 

Tim:

Looking forward to seeing you again in Wilsonville. I'm sure this outing will be far superior to out last experience there.

By the way, at the Desert Classic, Evans allowed a more comfortable heel/instep stance in addition to the heel/toe.

One reason he didn't allow the GD stance, I believe, was that he wanted to demonstrate to everyone that with proper positioning and proper use of the eyes (timing), one can see everything , including the outside low pitch, using the heel/toe (heel/instep) stance in the slot. His concept of seeing the pitch to the glove was different from every explanation, demonstration and personal practice I've had in the past. It was a true "aha!" moment.

We had a number of GD stance advocates, including me, at that event who, after Jim's training, went back to the heel/toe (heel/instep) stance with renewed confidence.

I did get the point but I still had a reason to ask.

I have no plans at present to attend an Evans clinic. I'm not even sure where the closest one to me is located. However, because I'm unable to attend one of these sessions I thought I might get some needed help from someone here. Thanks for responding Tee and Garth.

I have used the scissors for years. Two years ago at the end of the fall season I had my seventh knee surgery. I had a real bad injury my senior year in high school to my right knee that required three operations within a year. Since that time I have had one more surgery on that knee and three on my left to repair meniscus damage.

Last season I started to experience more pain than usual in both knees. When I asked my doctor, he took x-rays and told me I had early onset of osteoarthritis in both knees. He suggested that I might be excaserbating the problem with all the leaning on my knees when I umpire. I'm seriously interested in making a switch to try and see if a new stance helps. I didn't mean to be a bother.



Tim.

Don't have a hissy fit.

I am assuming you want the exact details of how Jim first presented the stance and how we drilled. I am at the age where I'm afraid I could possibly confuse what I did the last day of the Classic with what I did the first day.

I am looking for my tape so that I can give you an exact blow by blow description from start to end. Have a little patience without assuming the worst.

Sorry, Garth. My comments were directed toward whoever said that by asking the question I didn't get the point of your message.


Thanks for looking into it.


Tim.

Hehehehe,
 

I am chuckling because the last time I made the following statement someone actually said I was wrong and to PROVE it:

Here goes, again:

Professional baseball has disallowed the use of the scissor stance at AA baseball and below by their umpires (err, that would be when they get back to work).

The reason is that the insurance coverage company for both MLB abd MiLB has said that they will no longer cover injuries that come from the use of the stance.

What injury you may ask:

Here is the example that is given:

Take a tennis ball and hold it, with a straight arm, out in front of you. Hold it there for two minutes.

Now take a bowling ball and hold it it the same position. Impossible correct?

So consider your head as the bowling ball (now no comments that we have certain poster's that this isn't an analogy but a fact) . . . and that is the affect if you use the scissors stance.

MLB and MiLB baseball had many, many injuries that required surgery (and retirement for a couple of guys) that were traced directly to the use of the scissors stance and the effects on the neck and spinal cord.

Many, many MLB umpires have switched during the past few years . . . the scissors stance, other than those grandfathered in at the AAA and MLB level, is a disappearing dodo bird.

Information suplied by Mike Muchlinski, Darren Hyman, Gary Darling and Mike Winters.

Tim (BU56 Tim, not T.Alan Tim):

Pardon the delay. Although I'm on "mid-winter" break from my teaching position, I've still found some chores around the house that need attention. However, I also found my tape. (And I really enjoyed watching it, especially the part when I "tossed" one of the instructors, Jesse Redwine, who suggested after a strike two call "Oh, I get it, you're here it to stick it up my a$$."

At the Desert Classic the routine in the cages was formal and uniform,in part so that everyone could be evaluated more easily. (I'm sure that's a carryover from the five week.)

Near the end of the warmup pitches, the umpire would stand to the right of, and slightly advanced, of the plate, holding up the right hand at about the top of the head level with the index finger raised and announce to the pitcher, "One more pitch". After the pitch, the umpire would brush the plate, turn to his right and while watching the pitcher take a couple of back steps and then get behind the catcher.

The umpire would call "play!" (right hand pointing at the pitcher). The instructor at the pitching machine would announce "on the rubber.......set", and the umpire would drop into his stance on "set."

Evans allowed heel/instep at the camp in addition to heel/toe. I was told by one instructor that Evans requires heel/toe at his 5 week school but PBUC then allows heel/instep.

The stance taught was fairly wide, not the double wide of the GD but wider than what most student were used to. Wide and a half, if you will.

The batter-side arm is positioned level across the body. I avoid using the word "tuck" because when most students tucked their arms, they pulled them too far in, which moved their shoulders off square with the pitcher and off level with the ground.

The catcher-side hand was used to help lock in position and was placed in a position on the leg just above the knee. It was not placed behind the knee. It's hard to describe precisely, but I'll try. (I stopped the tape at the point the instructor went into his stance for this example)

Look at the back side of your right hand while you have the four fingers closed and the thumb extended as far to the left as it will go. Imagine the thumb on the top of your leg and left (inside)of center. The fingers are placed on and wrap the outside of the leg. The area between the thumb and index finger falls on the top of your leg.

At no time did any of the instructors place their hand behind their knee, however, some shifted their hand so that even more fell on the side of the leg.



[Edited by GarthB on Feb 22nd, 2006 at 01:00 PM]

Garth
Excellent description of what we were taught at the Florida Classic this past December.

I was recently at a clinic with Chuck Meriwether, and talked stances with him. He stated his biggest concern with the Davis stance was the increased chance of a neck injury due to catching a foul flush in the mask. He said the neck has very little give with the Davis stance.

I tried it and saw that I did have less give when locked in. Have any others heard about this or experienced a neck injury on a mask shot while using the Davis stance?

GD Questions
 

2 questions re: GD system

1) IF I line up on the inside corner, then how do I know where the outside corner is? Will this come with time?

2) If I understand this part, I will be looking down and trough the strike zone. How will I know where the botom is?

I am new (year 1...game 1 in 1 month) and I want to try this during our scrimmages and clinics. These are my questions to using the method as presented by the 2 poeple who are helping me..

sm_bbcaoch,
I chatted with you on the football board about filling our crew's football schedule for 2006. You had said you were double booked for a game in 2006. If I remember correctly the game was at Calumet. Could you check my profile and e-mail me? I apologize for crossing over on boards, but I hate sitting in the stands on a Friday night.
Thanks,
5050pete

GD
 

You are simply experiencing things everyone questions:

1) If you work in the slot, higher and DEEP you will see the outside corner fine. What we see is that people that use the stance without true training set up incorrectly and never see what is there!!! Don't try to self train the stance. You will fail.

2) Same with looking "down at the zone" . . . this one I don't get . . . understand I have worked 3,800+ games and the GD stance for 5 years . . . I do not understand what "looking down" means in terms of the zone. The comment makes no sense too me but I will say this . . . calling strikes is more than seeing the "ball" . . .a real umpire reads a lot of informantion before making a call . . . if you are concernined about "looking down" do us a favor . . . go back to the traditional stance.

The GD system is for umpires that are either advanced or are open to change . . . it is silly to caompare it to a traditonal stance.

First, I don't know what "neck" vulnerabilities are supposed to be inherent with the GD. I have taken mask shots during the last 5 years while using the GD and they hurt just like they did 10 years ago. One of the first things we learn when first using the GD is the importance of "dropping" your seat. This brings the neck in alignment with the spine, reducing the stress and fatigue on your neck and shoulders.

Second, you don't need to worry about knowing where the outside corner is, because you will see the outside corner.

Third, looking down at the zone is a misnomer. You will see the bottom of the zone, and you are not looking down. While you are set up higher than possibly you have before, your perspective of the zone is relatively unchanged.

What does change when you use the GD is you will be much more consistant, relaxed, and effective. The positive effects of a rock solid lock-in and an unchanging head height cannot be fully explained or appreciated until you actually have used the system.

Bob P.

Re: GD Questions
 

Lining up on the inside corner is part of many "stances" -- it's not a problem unique to the GD stance.

Quote:

2) If I understand this part, I will be looking down and trough the strike zone. How will I know where the botom is?

Again, in all (well, most) stances, your eyes will be at / near the top of the zone. You'll always be looking down.

GD does a few things, some of which also can be done (to some degree) in other stances:

1) It's repeatable -- you can get in the same spot every time.

2) It's comfortable -- it reduces fatigue so you cna be consistent from the first inning to the last.

3) It moves you back from the catcher to get a better perspective of the zone. The pitch comes in at a "flatter" angle relative to the umpire -- you can see the whole pitch and the "reference points" (knees, sternum, plate) with better depth perception rather than having the pitch "flash" (relativley speaking) across the zone.

Except that a lot of people are unable to receive training in this, Tim. There aren't many clinics around that offer this.

I'm a proponent of the GD stance after having switched from the box, but I haven't seen any training in the Chicago area in this stance.

i'm new to umpiring also, (my first game is in a couple of weeks), and I use the box becasue that's whats taught at my clinic and I don't see how it's too hard to switch to GD. I haven't tried it, but would love to switch.

Is it really that hard to make the switch? it's just a modified version of the box right?

Joe

don't do it. stay with the box and learn it. UNLESS there is a guy who can teach you the GD stance.

Yes - I use the GD.

could someone please explain why it would be hard to adapt the box into the GD method. I'm sure there is something I'm missing, but the GD looks like the box, just a little higher and a few steps back.

Joe

Hehehe
 

" . . . could someone please explain why it would be hard to adapt the box into the GD method. I'm sure there is something I'm missing, but the GD looks like the box, just a little higher and a few steps back."

`SIGH`

And therein lies the problem.

I'm sorry, I was being serious. I don't mean to be ignorant but it seems very adaptable from the box, especially for a newbie that doesn't have old habits to break

Joe

Everyone seems to be forgetting that the thing about using the GD System is that it is not about where you put your feet, or how it relates to the box or heel-toe.

I evolved into a user of the GD system because of my frustration with inconsistency and my desire to improve. Comparing the GD to other stances and positions is like comparing a Pinto with a Porsche. Yes, they both have 4 rubber tires, but thats where the similarity ends.

My criticism of most other stances, including the one taught by Jim Evans, is that is does not have a consistent lock-in mechanism, you tend to work much too low and much too close to the catcher.

If you are worried about injuring your neck or arm or hands, don't use the system. If you are worried about looking like everyone else, or that your evaluators will lower your grades because you use the GD, then don't use it. Its a matter of personal preference.

However, don't be disappointed when you lose the plumb plate assignment in a playoff game to someone who uses the GD. It's just that good!!!