Umps to boycott if no improvement made

The Minor League ReportBy DAMIAN CRISTODERO, Times Staff Writer
Published January 21, 2006 - St. Petersburg Times

Minor league umpires did not close the door on working spring training games but they clearly pushed in that direction.

The Association of Minor League Umpires on Friday turned down a labor contract and voted to boycott spring training if, as union head Andy Roberts said, "no further improvements are made.

"We love the game," Roberts told the Times by phone. "We sweat and bleed out there to produce a product the fans love. It is unfortunate it has gotten to this point."

Roberts said the umpires' average salary has not increased in a decade. He said the contract that expired in November paid Triple-A umps $15,000 for a five-month season, Double-A umps $12,000 and full-season Class A umps $10,000.

Roberts said the union asked for "substantial increases in pay," but management's five-year proposal offered a $500 raise only in the first year and a health-care deductible increase from $100 to $500.

He said per diems would rise $1 each year. Under the old deal, umpires received $25 in Triple-A, $22 in Double-A and $20 in Single-A.

"It's not exactly a livable amount of money," said Roberts, 32, a Triple-A umpire in the International League. "It's frustrating because we're not asking for the world. We're asking to treat us equally as we go year-to-year and make it so that your most qualified people can survive."

Pat O'Conner, chief operating officer of minor league baseball's governing body, St. Petersburg's National Association of Professional Baseball Leagues, declined comment beyond, "Our position is we're not going to negotiate in the press."

Roberts said no negotiations are scheduled but added, "We're looking forward to getting back to the table."

The union, though, clearly turned up the pressure with its boycott vote.

Roberts said spring training was not included in the previous contract. Umpires were invited to work. If the boycott holds, replacements will be needed.

"This isn't some sort of crying game," Roberts said. "We all know what we're getting into. But you hope you have the opportunity to maintain what you're doing when your level of expertise becomes so much more.

"The average three-umpire crew in Triple-A has over 20 years combined experience. You tell me if you can replace that."



Doesn't sound good to me.

--Tim.

Ive changed my initial position about these guys striking...I hope they get everything they deserve.

Yep,
 

They should get what they "deserve" . . .

This is simply a union arguement . . . I deal with the same issue every three years in my profession.

We live in a society were competition drives pricing.

If there were not "any" umpires unions what would the going price be for a AAA base umpire?

We have a difficult issue that "appentice level umpires" earn far less than "journeyman" umpires. The entire gamble, made willingly by MiLB umpires, is that they will one day "cash in."

In the most general of terms, I look at umpire as an "non-critical" skill . . . they ain't doctors . . . and the market will set the price of service.

I mean no disrespect to any MiLB umpire . . . but I do believe the following:

GIVEN TIME, minor league baseball would still flourish EVEN if they used local umpires of the college and high school level.

Don't get me wrong . . . professional umpires are far superior to those of us that work in the non-professional trenches . . . the issue is, MiLB can "get by" with umpires of lesser quality. It will eventually not change the game.

MiLB teams struggle to make ends meet. I would guess a settlement is close at hand and the umpires will settle for far less than they are currently seeking.

But that again, is just opinion.

[Edited by Tim C on Jan 31st, 2006 at 12:22 PM]

If the umpires did go on strike, do you think any of the current umpires would be a weasle and go ahead and work games anyways?

I know our summer assoc was negotiating a new contract this past year (which we settled) and we had one weasle that was willing to work games independent of the association and also get other umpires to work with him had we not settled. (Note: summer league umpires are not independent contractors like HS season in my area, which made it even worse).

OMG, the fact that we agree is numbing. I was villified for saying these same sentiments earlier.

MiLB umpires are not a rare breed. They are being paid to train and dream. MLB knows what they have and it is a proving ground. The dirt track racers don't get paid Michael Schumacher salaries. They are still learning and hoping fora shot at the brass ring. I can't believe anyone would fall for that "how are you going to replace our talent BS". Watch, they'll show you how. The same way that PATCO, Ford, and countless other companies replaced staff when they walked out. The replacements aren't weales, Largeone. IF a guy doesn't want to work his job, then go away. MiLB is driven by the dollar, just like any other business. Why would I pay more than I have to to get someone to sweep the floors in my office. If Oleg doesn't want to, then Manuel will. There are simply too many umpires that want to work MiLB. The schools are full and prove my point.

Do they deserve to be paid more - probably. But let's face it, high school coaches think they deserve professional umpires out there. If some of the best college guys work those Triple A games while Andy is sitting at home, too f-ing bad. That's what happens when you sign on for the dream.

This is the same cock and bull story about we want and need more. There is a list a country mile long of guys that would happily take those meaningless Short A, Rookie ball and Long A assignments. Those games will be covered by some talented umpires and some not so talented umpires. But that is what happens on every amateur baseball field in the world.

It is a hard life, to be certain. But, they get paid for a five month season and can do winter ball, instruct or travel the south working for more money than they made on the MiLB circuit. As I said before, these guys are apprenticing. The fact that a guy has been doing it for seven years is sad, but too bad. Why are you hanging in there after seven years? The answer is obvious - he wants the shot at the Show. No one is forcing him to stay. If you don't like the hours, pay or benefits...step aside and the next hungry young guy will be only too happy to show them what he's got. That's what MiLB does and so does most of corporate America.

[Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Jan 30th, 2006 at 10:40 PM]

I think a few would work, and then a few more, and before you know it the strike would be broken. If I'm right, they know it too, and will settle. What happened to the guy in your association? Is he still welcome ther?

Mike

"If the umpires did go on strike, do you think any of the current umpires would be a weasle and go ahead and work games anyways?"
------------------------------------------------------

Mark:

I doubt that initially there would be guys that break the boycott. Most of this opinion is rooted in the fact that many, many MiLB have full time jobs outside of umpiring. Unlike MLB umpires the MiLB guys probably make more money during their off season.

The challenge MiLB teams have is that their highest level of baseball starts first. Short Season A ball teams don't play until June so there is no hurry for that group to settle.

I know that the AAA Pacific Coast League is already developing "fill-in" plans for umpires. I am sure by mid-February leagues will have a "Plan B".

In Portland alone we have five retired MiLB umpires (most got as high as AA) and four D1 umpires that all would probably work AAA games in this town. We also have at least 15 professional umpire school graduates.

As I said above:

The quality of the umpiring would certainly not be as good as the professional umpires but eventually things would settle down and the managers, players and owners could live with lesser quality umpiring.

Umpiring does not effect a game enough to be of serious concern to the powers that run MiLB.

Of course, this is just an opinion.

I agree that the Minor league umpires should be paid more, however, I won't lose sleep over any actions they may take.

They all made a concious choice, knowing full well that they will be making less money, for the opportunity to advance and potentially make it to the pinnacle of their profession. We all make those decisions about our futures every day. Sometimes we move forward, sometimes backwards, and sometimes we don't move at all.

I hope they don't decide on a labor action, those generally are lose-lose propositions for all parties involved.

Bob

Minor League per diem. Hardly enough to buy ONE decent meal.

Bob

Bluezebra - who cares?

Do you get a per diem?

I imagine the guy that cuts my lawn would like to have his meals paid for. He works eight months and doesn't get their salary. I'm pretty sure he has no medical coverage and he has to buy his own equipment.

If you don't want to work for that wage, don't show up for work. Maybe they deserve more than what they are getting, but most employees are paid what they are worth to the owner. Apprentices make less than the master. My mechanic has five or six guys that are apprenticing for him. They push brooms, change plugs, fill and drain fluids - all work for far below the posted garage rate. They know that they have to pay their dues, further their education and hope that they perform well enough to be offered a journeyman role.

For those of you not familiar with a kitchen - many apprentice or sous chefs spend thousands on schooling and work horrible hours for very little pay. They do so in hopes of learning enough to be asked to the "show" - a 5 star culinary palace. They recognize that they do the same job as the guy in the cool tocque, but are not read for the glory yet. Maybe some of aspiring MiLB guys should go see what is going on in the kitchen rather than worry about the per diem.

Who deserves more, a AA umpire, or say.....a firefighter, teacher, cop....maybe a doctor in training working days on end just to be able to "cash in" after their ordeal is over.

By the way, I don't get a per diem on my job. In fact, when I was working during our last strike (before anyone gets all knotted up, I am management) I went over our daily meal allowance and had to repay my company $1.32.

Bob

Well put...

Most dissenters fail to realize the lack of sympathy when the MLB umpires last walked out. Do you really think the MiLB guys will garner more? I know plenty of umpires who went to pro school and now work college ball. They travel all over, live in crap hotels and live on Ramen noodles and the free grub at the ball parks. They are doing this so that they can prove that they are worthy of a Regional, Super or CWS. They don't have a contract either and live the dream. I wonder what their medical coverage is?

Well ....................
 

I hope that, due to the general tenor of this thread, that all of you will be happy losing your plum assignments because "Smitty" will do the games for a "dog" and a Coke.

And why not, the talent of the umpiring has little to nothing to do with the game, at least according to the past posts.



Doug

The only "plum" assignments lost to a Smitty will be the ones turned down or refused.


Bob

Doug:
 

I ask simply for the respect to extend my position:

I think all umpires are less important than how we value ourselves.

The only way I can explain is this way:

If you have two NFL teams that are evenly matched you can have a great professional football game to view. But if you have two equally matched WFL teams you can also have a game that is fun to watch.

MiLB umpires are good, they are not MLB umpires.

Minor league umpires fulfill an important function but that function is nothing compared to the players.

There is a far greater gap betweem MILB umpires and players than there is MLB umpires and players.

We are talking about MiLB umpires . . . some are 19 years old and have worked less baseball than any 10 year high school veteran.

Give these guys credit . . . the have a passion and rake a huge gamble.

HOWEVER . . .

Ownership of Minor League teams know that umpires are kinda/sorta unimportant.

I am not downgrading MiLB umpires I am telling you the truth.

Minor league baseball would EVENTUALLY go right a long with or without MiLB umpires. They just aren't that important. The SYSTEM will eventually accept whatever the quality is of umpiring and the teams will adjust and move on.

Some people might tell you the following:

"Minor League umpires are nothing more that an expendable commodity.

"There will always be umpires to work games.

"It does not matter that a "Joe West" is hidden in the multitude of MiLB umpires as there will always be 'someone' to work the games."

These "same people" would tell you that MiLB umpires have vastly overrated their value to the system.

The cool thing is we will see how this shakes out . . . and we are not involved.

Re: Key Word
 

OMG! I don't know what you do for a living, but that is quite possibly the most assinine thing I've ever seen written on this board. What job in America isn't expendable? Every employee can be replaced - from the brain surgeon to the garbage hauler.

I've already stated that I won't step forward and offer my services, but that is because I'm getting too old and I've been fortunate enough to have already been there. My objectivity is something few of you have. I've worked in the trenches for less than what they are making now. (That should tell you how long ago I did it.) We drove our own car, ate crappy food and lived in that car some days when we didn't have time to make it to the next motel. We did it because we were dreaming of what might be. We laughed at how little we made and went to sleep knowing that we would sell our grandmothers to get a shot at the bigtime. Then reality sunk in and we realized that while we were good, we weren't THAT good or didn't have the RIGHT connections. We moved along and didn't regret it.

These guys are doing the same thing. They are expendable - so are you. Most coaches don't care who is umpiring as long as they get the calls right. A college umpire who steps into the AAA, AA or A game will have a new appreciation for the game, but will get the job done. We get secnd guessed on high school fields, for goodness sake, why should it be any different there. The new MiLB robots get heckled, booed and challenged just like you and me. Quit kidding yourself, the game will adapt the same way it did when the MLB umpires walked out. Those games were played and they counted!

So let's have a challenge here - how about every umpire group publicly state they will not work MiLB games?

If we truly respsect our brothers (And sister) in blue we shouldn't throw them under the bus by working MiLB games.

Of course one could expect the same in return (MiLB umpires not to take over NCAA, etc).

I agree with Tim C & others that MiLb could get by without AMLU umpires, at least for a time. The real question is how long would MLB stand by without taking some type of action?

Re: more on this
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dontcallmeblue
My thoughts...

...yes, MiLB umpires are "chasing a dream" but does that mean that we live in a society where you should have to make a choice between having a job you love and paying bills?

Yes, many people do this. They have jobs they hate, but they pay the bills. Few have jobs they love and make enough for all of their dreams. Grow up!



You all forget that minor league baseball made $500 million in revenue last year. That's half a BILLION dollars. Billion with a B. If they kicked the umps $2-3 MILLION that would most likely make a large difference in their lives. We're talking about them kicking a quarter percent of their revenue to the umpires. A QUARTER %.

Again, who cares? Microsoft doesn't pay the poor schlub that sweeps the floors big bucks. That is what these umpires are, floor sweepers. They do a thankless job and are paying their dues. No one promised them a chance to advance. They were told to be good workers and if they proved themselves they would advance. That sounds a lot like most of corporate America. How many CEOS are at your company?



As for those who said your lawn boy doesn't get per diem. He doesn't have to live out of a suitcase 7 months a year either. And I know, MiLB guys don't "have" to, but they've made a choice to chase a dream, don't punish them for that.

Oh, boo hoo... they agreed to the terms and that comes with the territory. I know plenty of salesman that make less than what they think they should. They live in cheap hotels and see their families a couple days each month. Again, we all make decisions - if they don't want to do it, step aside - others will. If you want to dream, like artists, poets and musicians, you often live on Mac n Cheese.




The IRS accepts per diems as a normal part of business travel. That's what MiLB guys do, travel for business. The IRS sets that rate by city, but nationally it's more than $60/a day.

Still more of this fairness BS. Why should they pay more when they don't have to? The pro schools are full of guys who will step in. Plenty of ex-MiLB guys will work those games, because they secretly pray to be recognized as better than they were. They think, 'Maybe they'll notice me now.' Have a drink with one of them sometime. Those that were cut loose often wonder why and are pining to get back. Should that guy say no to a game he's capable of doing and work a Varsity game at the local high school out of loyalty? No f-ing way, he's got bills to pay too. Unless of course you don't think his bills are as important.

I have a friend whose son just left Pepsico after four years. They worked him 70 hours a week and had him living on an airplane. He asked for a raise and they told him to hit the bricks if he didn't like the job. He did and they replaced him with a new college grad for 50% of his salary. They'll do it all again in a few years. That is how the business world operates. Wake up, DCMB - you are missing a good game!



I'm with these guys. They deserve every cent.

Yes, they do, but they agreed to live out of a suitcase for seven months a year. They also agreed to the pressure, per diem and lack of repsect - all for a shot at the dream. I guess in a perfect world they would all get paid $80,000 a year and their children would be movie stars and Olympic athletes with pefect teeth. Try NoDoz!

If the market is going to set the price for an umpire, then how come it seems that ticket prices, gas prices, everything prices are going up and have for the past ten years, and so has attendance at Minor League parks, yet the salaries of Minor League Umpires has stayed the same. There is obviously something wrong here. Just because a MiLB umpire knew what the salary of a MiLB umpire was coming in, doesn't mean that it shouldn't change. Obviously if they are willing to not work because of their unfair wages, then something is wrong. I doubt we understand it as well because we aren't in their shoes. But if you use the argument "you know what you are getting into" as a reason not to get a raise, then nobody would ever get raises. To say that MiLB teams struggle to makes ends meet is a flat out lie. MiLB is making record profits. It's not about MiLB not having enough money to give the umpires more. From what I know, these guys are making about 2000 - 2500 a month, for five months. So that's around 11,000 a year for their services. Whereas Major League Umpires make 10 to 30 times that much. And how many minor league umpires get jobs in the MLB? There hasn't been one in the past couple years. It's very rare. Most of these guys are career MiLB umpires. And don't tell me that it's not a career, because spending 10 years of your life in a position IS a career these days. And then when these guys are fired, they are left with nothing. And these guys don't just advance for doing a perfect job and getting better. Most of them are awesome and do everything anybody could ever ask out of them. There just aren't any MLB jobs out there for them. I doubt these guys are asking for much. They SHOULD be making more than what I make doing D3 and D1 baseball. It's harder to get into, they are ALWAYS away from home, and frankly, watching them work and meeting some of them, they are MUCH BETTER umpires.

Umpiring for 25 years, I find it hard to believe that umpires of such a high quality could be easily replaced. Umpires are VERY important to the game. They aren't just a janitor or a kitchen worker. If they screw up, the game gets screwed up. Do you really think fans, management and players are going to like that screw ups are going to go WAY up because the new umpires won't be consistent at all? If I'm a player trying to make it to MLB, I'm going to want the best umpires possible. Same with a manager. And as a fan…I don't want to see the game destroyed by bad umpiring. I've destroyed a game or two in my day…and so have partners of mine, and so have a lot of high school and college umpires I know. But I have never been to a MiLB game, and seen it destroyed by the umpires. I am always amazed at how consistent they are. New guys come into town every week…and they look the same. They do everything the same. Most of us amateur umpires do a REALLY good job. But I'll admit it…I couldn't hold my own in a professional game. I don't have the time nor the ability to do what I see those minor league umpires do. I'm not that good. Most of the guys I work with aren't that good. And the ones that are close…they are working full D1 schedules and talking to them, they wouldn't even think about working minor league games. They wouldn’t want to take the huge pay cut, haha. Plus they love college baseball…as do I. I wouldn't be willing to give it up.

I've never worked a minor league baseball game…and I admit, working one would be cool. But it wouldn't be cool if I knew I was hurting other umpires by doing so. These guys work hard, have families, and I know that some of them are really just trying to put food on their family's table and clothe their kids. Plus I don't know how I'd feel walking out onto a Minor League field with everybody knowing I wasn't a Minor League Umpire. The cool thing about working upper level baseball is that you earned it. You worked hard to get there, and you've earned the respect that level brings. If I worked while the REAL minor league umpires were striking, then I wouldn't have earned that, I'd just be taking advantage of somebody else's misfortune. I don't know how I could invite my friends and family to come watch me, when they knew that. I'd be kind of embarrassed.

Maybe I'd feel different if I truly felt these guys were just being stupid, and should just work because they have an awesome job, which they do. But to me, it feels like they are REALLY being taken advantage of. I hope they continue to stand up for themselves. Nobody ever seems to think about us umpire or even care. I am sure a lot of fans and people won't care about these umpires. But not me. I AM AN UMPIRE. I am not going to turn my back on another umpire. That would just be wrong.

But that is just my opinion.

It's simple economics.

If I can find a Tank Top I like for $5.99, I'm not going to pay $8.99 for it. If I CAN'T find one I like for $5.99, I might have to pay $8.99 for it - it becomes a matter of choices - do I need the $8.99 Tank or whatever else I might spend 9 bucks on more.

Same thing here. The availability of workers is greater than the demand for those workers. If they find that they cannot find people to umpire for them for the wages they are ready to pay, they would be forced to pay more. Problem is... there are PLENTY of people who would willingly and happily work these games, at the rate and benefits currently in place.

The market finds it's own level. Ticket prices go up because people WILL pay them. Wages only go up if you cannot find suitable workers for the salaries you're willing to pay.

mcrowder: You and I can agree once in a while. That was my point in multiple posts. Why should they pay more when the schools are full of eager new apprentices. Major League Baseball knows that they don't have to pay much to have umpires out there. They also know that barring a plane crash that wipes out the entire WUA, they have enough guns ready to step up for the next ten years.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm not certain what the Iraq comment was about. If you don't think that every job is expendable in America, then you weren't paying attention in your Civics and Economics classes. These MiLB umpires aren't martyrs - they made a choice to sacrifice riches for a dream.

They deserve a better living wage, but so does half the population. Hell, I deserve more for the games I work, but the market decides what I'll earn. Some of you probably feel that you are underpaid at work. If you walked out, would your boss replace you?

Mmmm,
 

Thump it is not my intent to argue your points.

I recognize that you are supportive of the MiLB umpires (as are a couple of others in the thread) and feel they need better pay for doing their jobs.

I will refute a few of your points from an outsiders view:

"I doubt we understand it as well because we aren't in their shoes."

You of course are allowed any opinion you want but give a little credit to some that have posted to this thread. Many of the people here research all types of subjects and to say "You don't understand" is just plain wrong.

"Most of these guys are career MiLB umpires."

That might be the way they end up but NONE got started without a dream of going to the major leagues. There are no longer "career minor league umpires" . . . you are expected to advance or you are let go.

"And then when these guys are fired, they are left with nothing."

You would have to explain to me the difference between an umpire having "nothing" compared to the ever shrinking job prospects in my state for loggers, fishermen, and even farmers. When a mill closes highly trained mill workers have "nothing" . . . is there a difference here?

"Umpires are VERY important to the game."

Yep, if players and coaches didn't lie and cheat we wouldn't even need umpires. But the real issue is what quality do those umpires need to be. I believe that professional umpires are the best trained umpires on the planet. As a group. However, there are still different qualities of umpires as there different qualities of players. Leagues will eventually level out under whatever type umpiring they receive. They adjust.

" . . . because the new umpires won't be consistent at all?"

Sorry this is an emotional statement on your part. You have no idea who will work the games and if the can be consistent or not. We aren't necessarily talking about the "volunteers" that work the Little League World Series . . . we are talking about well trained (possibly professional school graduates) local umpires.

You have truely high morals and the desire to protect people you respect -- I admire that.

For you and socalblue1 who think it would be terrible if anyone worked games being boycotted by MiLB umpires I respect that feeling. But you know what, it is only baseball and it is business.

If MiLB adminstrators think that umpires are undervalued they will reward. The flip side is also true.

Thump, in closing I would like to remind you of two things:

1) Only 12.5% of Americans belong to any type labor union. In the last 50 years unionized workers have decreased in the market place from 32.3% in 1954 to the current 12.5% (source BLS.gov). Most employment that has union workers have finally started to realize that productivity is a two way street. It is a team approach that gets things done. While I am sure MiLB umpires will prevail and get a pay increase it will be less than they want. THIS YEAR.

2) Minor League teams are a business. If you owned a business wouldn't you do everything possible to create a greater value for your investment. We had a political system that decided we need NAFTA, so what about people that lost jobs that were sent outside the USA? -- or the fact that the general person that works construction is going to be far different in the future. They won't look like me and they'll speak Spanish. Yet somehow there is a feeling that since some teams make money it should automaticly be shared with the working class. That doesn't fly in the business world.

Do I think that Minor League umpires are better than "local guys"? . . . you bet! Do I think they are underpaid? . . . you bet! Do I think that MiLB could function without MiLB umpires for a limited time? . . . you bet!

We live in a system that worships capitalism. Every day we go to work we hope our companies do well, we all live "one paycheck from being homeless", and we all watch our shopping dollars.

That is all Minor League Baseball is doing.

When I was in pro school I was told that the average MiLB umpire spends 7 years woing it before he gives up or is cut from the roster. That doesn't sound like a career to me. I have a few friends still actively pursuing the dream and I've talked with them about this matter. I've been there so they know I understand the harsh truths of their lives. They responded no differently than the teacher, cop or transport worker who demands better wages, benefits and respect. I feel bad that they don't get more but the reality is that they are expendable and will receive only a token increase from MLB.

If you don't believe me, check for yourself. How many MiLB umpires are still in the game after seven years? Ten?

It is not any more of a career than any other apprentice. You are doing the drudgery in order to prove your worth. Maybe you get noticed and maybe you get sent home with a lot of neat stories.

As yourself this; when the MLB umpires went on strike, did America care? Did those games count? When they came back, were they a stronger union or was their position compromised severely?

The difference between what the MLB guys did and the MiLB guys, is that the MLB guys were replaced with AAA umpires. And at least from what I've seen...umpiring in AA and AAA is good enough to survive MLB. The difference is not that big. But the difference between Rookie Umpires, straight out of school umpires, and college umpires...to the A, AA, and AAA guys...it's HUGE.

And how many of you are going to piss off your assignors and turn back games to work a MiLB game. I know that EVERY ONE OF MY ASSIGNORS would refuse to give me games EVER again if I did that. I wouldn't be willing to give up college umpiring to work a few games as a scab.

Personally though, even if I could get away with it, I still wouldn't do it.

It's just how I feel. No need to refute what I have to say, because the way I feel won't change. I can't turn my back on my friends, or a fellow umpire who I haven't even met.

I know how America works. But when I see something that is wrong (getting paid $10,000 a year is wrong) then I am all for people fighting to make it better.

I am concerned that you are worried about the umpires and not the game. Those games will still occur whether you and your friends take them or not. If you are blacklisted because your assignor would rather give you a Sophomore game instead of testing your abilities on a Minor League field, that speaks volumes about your assignor, not the issue. Those players deserve to have their games played. They are fighting to make it to the Show too. This walkout won't stop games from being played. Do they deserve the best possible umpire - you bet, every level does.

They get paid for a five month season - yes, it is paltry but they are not in it for the riches. Every MiLB umpire I know makes more in the off season than they do working the contract. Some are fortunate enough to be assigned Winter ball and some teach at the schools. Others go to college or semi pro ball and take the cash under the table. A few teach clinics independently and cash in on their luck. That is what they have after all, the luck and ability to be chosen to work Minor League Baseball. They all begin with the dream and chase it until they realize that their last name is not Wendlestedt. The average 'career' is less than seven years. Most of those guys jump to D-1 and are more than satisfied. The dream might be over, but so is the nightmare.

I would venture to bet that each of our associations has fought long & hard to obtain reasonable game fees & better working conditions.

So let's flip the tables a bit here.

How would this group feel should MiLB lock out AMLU (Or there be a strike) and:

1. 220+ of the best umpires in the country be dropped into hungry assignors laps?

2. Offer their services to the local schools / conferences, perhaps at a lower price?

Yes I am concerned about the umpires more than that game at this point. Because they are the ones being taken advantage of. Of course the game will go on no matter who the umpires are. The quality of the game though will be tarnished. And with the MiLB umpires out...there would be a black mark on MiLB. They don't want that. I am sure MLB is putting a lot of pressure on MiLB to get a deal done with the umpires. Why wouldn't they?

I don't think baseball would be DOOMED without the MiLB umpires. I just don't think things would run as smooth...and I think it's going to anger a lot of people. And it's going to be HARD for them to get angry at the umpires when they are only asking for a living wage...so I think that anger might instead be turned on MiLB.

When the MLB guys didn't work...they were giving up a lot more. They were giving up THE SHOW. They were giving up a decent salary. So...it was hard for pepole to feel sympathetic for them. But...this is different. Lots of people won't care...but some people will also see that MiLB umpires are just asking for a livable wage...and that will create some symapthy.


Bottom line:

The players WILL notice and WILL NOT be happy.
The manager WILL notice and WILL NOT be happy.
The farm directors WILL notice and WILL NOT be happy.
The fans WILL notice and will already know these aren't regular umpires, so they will already assume that they aren't as good, and when they mess up, they'll just be 10 times as critical.

The MiLB umpire may deserve 50,000 a year. They aren't asking for that though. They just want to get by...because with the prices of everying going up...they aren't making enough to get by anymore. A decade ago it was enough...but since they haven't had a raise in 10 years...it's not enough anymore. Very few if any jobs pay less now than they did a decade ago. Why should MiLB umpiring?

From what I understand, these guys don't want a huge raise...they just want to combat inflation. Can't blame them for that.

I'm not taking a side, just attempting to keep the facts around. The quote regarding the increase was <B>"Roberts said the union asked for "substantial increases in pay," </b>

My understanding is that the increase is in the vicinity of 300%. It may be deserved. It may not. I'm not in the position to make that decision. But at any rate, it is not just a raise to combat inflation.

I think it's likely that the current work situation with MiLB umpires - or similar negotiations in the next few years - will end the current apprenticeship system.

The owners see just another union demanding higher wages and - worst of all - benefits. Inflation in healthcare benefits is running over 20% per year. Companies are dying for ways to drop benefits, pensions, etc. As the workforce ages, these legacy costs kill the bottom line.

So to avoid these costs, what do companies do? Outsource. For pro umpiring, that means hiring independent contractors through an assignor. It would start to look like high school, college, and semi-pro ball in many parts of the country. Flat fee payments, no benefits, no per diem, no travel, etc..

MLB umpires would be culled from the highest levels and would continue to run much as they do now. There's too much at stake in the bigs to have independent contractors there. But officiating at the minor league level will be very different.

And, as a consequence, PBUC and the schools will die quietly and with little fanfare.

I'm not saying that this is how it should be or that I would welcome these developments. I think that when you run a sport as if it were an entertainment business, and when conditions are what they are today in the business world, then certain business decisions begin to look like imperatives.

DCMB: Right, my point about legacy payments was simply that businesses are always looking for ways to lower costs, not that this point specifically applied to MiLB umps.

Other pro sports hire top level officials from the independent contractor/assignor system. They use HS, college, and other leagues to develop their officials for them. MLB could do the same, using a handful of evaluators to find the best.

The "umpire development" model might have become too expensive to keep.

"Say what you want about the guys in rookie ball who are 18-19, they're still superior umpires to those not "in the game.""

This is getting pretty funny.

A 19 year old kid, who may never have worked a game, is better than a D1 guy, after only 5 weeks of school and a couple of weeks of PBUC - - - man I didn't know umpiring was that easy.

Side Note:

In our area of the United States MiLB umpires would not be able to work varsity high school games or draw a college schedule until at least 2007. All fees are set prior to the seasons by contract and at both the high school and college level the "certified associations" are the only ones that can work games. There can not be a "lower priced" competitor.

Side Note #2:

Our assigning commissioner would gladly take "give back games" for umpires to have a chance to work professional games. But more likely the assigner will assign these games to our normal membership.

Side Note #3:

Mr Byron has projected exactly what could happen to this end of the professional baseball "business" . . . I tried to make this thought earlier that not unlike NAFTA, the outsourcing of this resource could save MiLB LOTS OF MONEY.

Side Note #4:

In closing MiLB will endure this issue. It will be interesting to see where the final accepted offer finalizes. But what some fail to understand is that "owners" have the power in MiLB and they will do what is necessary, and live with those outcomes, to increase the value of the asset.

That's business.

no tim
 

It's not "that easy" and while that 19 yo may not be able to call a better game - you forget the most important part - he's far more moldable, coachable and has far more potential.

Nobody is saying MiLB is going to fold over this. But the games would be a joke.

As someone who annually watches things like the LLWS and the CWS - those umpires could work in A-ball night in and night out. A few games? A week? Sure. But not with their level of consistency. You'd be surprised.

And MiLB umps could work HS games this year. Absolutely. At the same set contracted fee. Many I know keep up their HS and College memberships for fall ball and such. They'd just get first dibs. Your games.

Ah,
 

"And MiLB umps could work HS games this year. Absolutely. At the same set contracted fee. Many I know keep up their HS and College memberships for fall ball and such. They'd just get first dibs. Your games."

Maybe in some areas. I identified quite clearly that they couldn't in "my area."

We have no MiLB umpires in either our high school or college groups. If we did they would get the same game schedule as all of us that have worked if we were "new" . . . many associations have "transfer rules" that require ANY umpire to work one year of JV games no matter who they are.

In Wisconsin, a state where umpires build their own schedules, most schools have signed contracts with umpires for games that won't be player until 2009!

In my group I would welcome any top level umpire. We are losing membership every year and we seem to get hurt at the top most often.

The model may one day more closely follow the system of the NFL where they hand select certain college (and in a very few cases high school officials) and train them in preseason.

For me this has been an interesting thread as I have tried to not become emotional on either side of the issue and just give a view of how business actually functions.

I don't know where you got 300% from? That seems like a rumor to me...one that really has no merit. From what I know, MiLB umpires have actually had a pay decrease in the past 10 years. They have had NO RAISES, no COL increases, NOTHING! So...if you want to combat that...and get them back to where they were 10 years ago...a "significant pay increase" would be needed. The guys that i've talked to have said they aren't asking for much. The contract that the guys rejected had a $100/month increase in pay. A $1 a day increase in per/diem (which would still leave it about half the government rate...and for those of you that say a lawn care person doesn't get a per diem, so why should these guys...last time I checked these guys NEVER GET TO GO HOME...they are on the road for 5 months. That's the reason there is a per diem in the first place...so why in the world isn't it up to par with the government standard?)

This contract that they rejected also " include raising the deductible from $100 to $500 and increasing the copay" which would wipe out that pay increase.

So of course they are going to reject it. EVERY guy i've talked to said all the MiLB umpires are asking for is a pay increase to get wages back to livable. Nobody has told me they are looking for 300%. If you look at the COL increase/year it's at about 2-3% per year for the past 10 years. So over 10 years that would be an increase of about 25% or so. And that isn't really a raise...that's just keeping with the times.

If MiLB comes out with an offer that reflects this...and the MiLB umpires reject it...then I will probably start to change my mind. These guys don't need a 300% raise...and none of them I have talked to have expressed that. They do NEED a raise that will combat the cost of living increase going on. THAT IS A REALITY IN AMERICA! Things are getting more expensive, so you have to pay your employees more. You can't just ignore that as an employer.

I can't disagree with a union when they are just asking for livable wages. This union is not on a power trip. They aren't turning their back on fair contracts. It seems to me they are just trying to survive. These guys are "professional" umpires. This is their job. They should be making at least enough money to take care of their families.

two roads diverged...
 

Some of you are missing the point.

Pro ball is a capitalist enterprise. The objective is to maximize profits. The owners do that by maximizing revenue and minimizing cost.

Labor - players, staff, groundskeepers, umpires, etc. - is a cost to be minimized. The owners will pay them all the minimum required to keep revenue up. The fact is that, given what MiLB now pays umpires, there are plenty of people who are willing to do the job.

From a capitalist perspective, then, there is NO REASON to pay them more. The product (pro ball) will NOT suffer greatly from less qualified umpires working the games. And, if I'm wrong about that, and revenues start to drop, then the owners will realize that they made a mistake and will start to pay more for quality umpires. But it's easy to overestimate our importance to the game of baseball.

Is the status quo a living wage? No. I don't know anyone who thinks it's decent or fair or livable. But in a genuinely free market there is NO SUCH THING as an unfair price: if I voluntarily and with full information accept the price (for my labor, or my product or whatever), then it is fair. And the MiLB umps have been accepting it for 10 years and more.

Of course, we don't live in a perfectly free market (which is a good thing). And the owners might have other reasons for wanting to please the umpires (though I doubt it). And, finally many people will find what I'm saying to be disturbing - that the concept of "price gouging" or "unfair price" is incoherent in free-market economics. Isn't capitalism supposed to be good?

Let's not be naive: the MiLB umps have little leverage, and a strike would likely spell the end of the current apprentice system.

But they aren't accepting it anymore. I find if funny how all the MiLB umpires I talk to are willing to do what it takes to get wages back to par...yet you say there are pleanty of guys willing to work. How come the guys that ARE in MiLB aren't willing to work? Seems to me that eventually these other guys will also feel the same way after awhile.

I guess the only way to find out if MiLB can survive or not without them is to wait, watch, and see. A lot of it depends on us. If we decide to work or not. Most of the guys that I work with have already told me they can not bring themselves to scab if the MiLB guys walk out. I feel the same way. I'm not going to help MiLB screw over these guys. Why would I help MiLB? I am an UMPIRE!!! Shouldn't I be siding with other umpires?

The only thing I'd be gaining by working as a fill in would be personal gain. But I would actually be taking a pay cut to work the games...I WOULDN'T be workign with another professional umpire (which is one of the big reasons why i'd like to 'fill in' during a regular season when the MiLB guys ARE working), and I also wouldn't be working a game that I EARNED. I'd just be taking advantage of the situation.

Had I choose to go to umpire school when I was younger, and had I made it out of there and gone to professional umpiring, there is no doubt that that would have been the best feeling in the world. I could go work as a scab for these guys, and fool myself into thinking that I earned it, and that it's the same, but I'd just be lying to myself. I wouldn't have that feeling like I would if I were REALLY a professional umpire.

I can not in my right mind go work a game, when I know that me working the game is keeping some 25 year old out of it, somebody who really deserves it, and just wants to work and be able to support himself and his family. All I'd be doing by working is helping MiLB keep the umpires down, and hurting umpiring as a whole by showing people that umpires are just pawns...and that we aren't worth much.

Yes. It is getting funny. I went to umpire school twice. After my second year and going to a local clinic to prove my skills, I was given a 25 game D-1 schedule at age 20 or 21 not sure. I was only 2 years out of high school and knew a lot of the kids playing at the local schools. So if you are saying that a rookie umpire cannot umpire D-1 baseball that is the joke. They can do it as good or better than some of the D-1 umpire out there.

KB

I don't know why we are even talking about D1 guys anyway. Pretty much all the D1 assignors have already come out and said that they won't let their guys turn back games or cancel dates to take minor league games. If the MiLB guys go on strike, it isn't going to be the D1 guys working the games.

I know I sure wouldn't chance turning back any of my D1 or D3 games to do a MiLB games. My D3 assignors will let me turn back games to get a D1 game...but even though some of them haven't addressed it, two of them already have said that if any of us try to give back games to do MiLB games, then we won't ever work for them again.

They want us to get the experience, but not like this. I know that all my assignors would let me turn back a game to do a MiLB game under normal circumstances. That would be a good experience, to work with a pro umpire. But to work as a scab. Not good.

Just got an email from Rich Fetchiet outlying the same thing. Obviously the NCAA can't choose a side, but they can keep you from turning back games to work MiLB games.

Hehehehe,
 

"Yes. It is getting funny. I went to umpire school twice. After my second year and going to a local clinic to prove my skills, I was given a 25 game D-1 schedule at age 20 or 21 not sure. I was only 2 years out of high school and knew a lot of the kids playing at the local schools. So if you are saying that a rookie umpire cannot umpire D-1 baseball that is the joke. They can do it as good or better than some of the D-1 umpire out there."

---------------------------------------------------
I told you it was getting funny.

I admit, TAC, that I am laughing right along with you. Having actually been assigned out of professional school, albeit a very long time ago, I have an insight that these guys simply don't. I know the grind and what it takes to survive. After extra innings and no time to waste, my partner and I drove all night and slept in the car. We lived of our savings and families. We inhaled ball park food and lived to iron shirts (yes, we had to do that then) and polish shoes. Our facilities were spartan and we were usually treated like a commodity. Umpires are just that - a relaceable, disposable commodity.

The guy who said that he can't relate to the apprenticeship analogy, then substantiates it by saying that an apprentice knows if he proves himself he will some day get the brass ring! That sounds an awful lot like MiLB umpires. Sure the percentages are the same, but they are paid to develop their craft and fine tune their skills - just like an apprentice!

Plenty of independent MiLB programs use the services of local umpires and the complaints are the same as with the contracted guys. I almost pissed myself when another guy said that with those MiLB guys out of work, his assignor would happily give them games. Great, I hope he gives them yours. While it is true (and I said as much three months ago when we first talked about this) that most NCAA umpires have their schedules and won't be available for much of the MiLB schedule, you would be wrong to think they won't take them on their days off. I know more D1 guys than I care to and with most MiLB games being played on weeknights, they are often free to do them. You go from a three man single or double header to a single under the lights - that's a normal rotation. No one gets stuck with multiple dishes and you take home some extra cash. At the same time, you are polishing your skills. For some crews, they would actually be working better baseball on the college field!

Yet another member raises the issue of not being capable of umpiring that level of ball. Stop the nonsense already - yes, the players are quicker, more deceptive and more skilled. But, coaches and players argue any call that goes against them, no matter the level. No one has said that any high school umpire can step in and crew a AAA game. But, some guys can - you said it yourself. Those Rookie ball guys can and do work high school during the off season. The coaches still scream at them for blown calls. Yes, MiLB and D1 umpires blow calls!

You can't strike if you don't have a contract, but I digress. If they decide to stay away without a contract then they are opening Pandora's box. Their dream will end because they will be blackballed. Look how MLB treats some of their veterans who walked out. Give me a break about MiLB drying up and going away. Most people don't go to the park to watch the umpires. The new umpires will have a steep learning curve but will rise to the occassion. Water seeks its own level. The powers that be will proclaim that all is well and even the normal crews make mistakes. The MiLB will go from a small paycheck to welfare. Their dreams will be gone and some local assignor will give them your games. That sounds like someone that needs my sympathy. Artists, musicians and craftsmen often spend years toiling in poverty. They pray that their skills will lead them to the promised land. Why should the MiLB umpire be treated any differently?

We all agree they should earn more, but so should most of working America. We all want more for our games, but if I walk away from my schedule, I can't cry when the assignor puts someone I consider less talented on the field. That's life, we all wish we had asked Miss America to the prom.

Minor league umpires deserve more. In 1967 Cesar Chavez and the United Fruit Workers fought for a living wage for migrant farmers. If they had left it up to supply and demand, the migrants would still be making substandard wages. But they deserved a better wage. So do the umpires.

If MiLB goes simply by supply and demand, the umpires will not have a living wage. If the umpires had received reasonable cost of living increases in salary and per diem over the last 10 years, there wouldn't be a threatened job action. If they made a decent living and just wanted a bigger piece of the owners' pie, I might be tempted to fill in for them if asked. But since they are fighting for something so basic and necessary, I wouldn't even think about it.

Mike

If you want to keep using the apprenticship analogy then you need to understand that apprenticeship wages are based on Journeyman scale by percentage. So this would then beg the question what percentage of MLB wages do the MiLB umpires make?

Tim.

Actually, BU56, I don't. Most MiLB umpires don't make less than the $15,000 that a couple of members have lied about. Those are 5 month seasons, boys. Put two of them together and add some instructional or Winter League to it and you are making what many college grads make. I know many of them would love to have $36,000 salaries, their lodging paid for and medical benefits. In fact, for a long time, I lived on far less than $20 a day for meals.

I just read a great comment from Derek Crabill on MiLB.org. He says that MiLB umpires could probably concentrate more on the game if they didn't have to worry about the money. OMG, could you be any less arrogant? Your job IS too concentrate and get the calls right. You get paid to do it and if you don't like the pay, go back to doing baseball in the far northwest Chicago suburbs. They've been offered a modest increase in salaries and want the right to have more increases each of the next four years. How many of you are guaranteed annual salary increases? Most of America is non-union and happily accepts the paycheck for the work they do. He implies that they can't focus because they are too worried about paying the bills.

Okay, DC77, time to step aside and let others do the job. I used to think you were a gifted umpire, now I think you are gifted umpire who is clearly incapable of political correctness. I never mentioned your assignor or group, but know that he will be only too happy to have you back on his games. Do you realize how asinine your comment sounds? If you can't concentrate on a three hour game it's time to hang up the mask.

I have no choice but to answer these things point for point:

Originally posted by dontcallmeblue
What % do they get. Let's look at it.

MiLB umpire. Rookie ball. $1800/mo. 3 months $5400. Divide that by the starting big league salary of aprox. $115k. hmmm. Can you say 4%? It goes up slightly from there, but those hardly look like apprentice wages to me.

Yes, it does - you are asking for a union apprenticeship wage. Plenty of apprentices work in kitchens, construction sites, offices and schools for pitances. Why should a Rookie ball umpire with no seasoning get paid anything close to what the top 1% of all umpires make? You make me laugh.

I suppose you think that a kid signed straight out of high school to a developmental league should receive a large portion of the MLB minimum? That makes as much sense.

Have you not read the posts and talked to the people? While some would get blackballed from college ball for turning back games to do MiLB games, others (most?) would be blackballed from NCAA for scabbing at all, which makes it not worth the risk. You didn't earn your spot.

Pretend to know what you are talking about. Plenty of NCAA umpires are ex-MiLB guys who got shafted. They would happily cross that line and take the extra coin. Some will do it because they pine for the chance to prove themselves and others will just be happy to work that level of ball again. You are fantasizing if you think that the guys who were asked to step aside care about the newbies.

It's not the calls they blow, it's how they handle them.

Do you think before you write? Of course it's the call they blow. That sets off the chain of response. I've seen guys make great calls but then lose it when the skipper comes out to bark. Those guys worked with me in the Minors.

And you can't fire members of a recognized union without a contract either, that's not bargaining in good faith - looks like they're in a pretty good spot to me. If this ever went before binding independent arbitration, MiLB would be in trouble.

They AREN'T being fired. If they choose to walk away, which they voted to do, they are abandoning their careers. If you didn't show up for work after your contract ran out, your boss has the right to replace you. Sorry, but I've been on both sides of those contracts.

MiLB is not worried about arbitration. They have long argued that they pay what the market bears. The schools are full of applicants for those jobs, regardless of salary. They must know something you don't. I imagine that's a long list.

"Their dream will end because they will be blackballed. Look how MLB treats some of their veterans who walked out."

Get your facts straight. MLB guys walked out against a contract that had not expired and violated a no-strike clause. MiLB guys don't have a contract.

That's right, they don't. So if they walk out, they are turning their backs on the dream. The MLB guys struck and felt the public's wrath. MLB had been in the driver seat with them since. AMLU is in the same spot. They are desperate to provide for their 230 members or they will be destroyed by MLB and MiLB. The MiLB lawyers are not worried about what you perceive as unfair play. They have a couple hundred minimum salary examples from MiLB players to bolster their claims.

Those AMLU umpires smiled when they accepted their initial contracts and were grateful to be considered for the job. They dream of walking onto the fields in New York, Chicago and Los Angeles. They will give all of that up when the ignore the assignments in late February.

Do your research before you get on the Internet and spout things as fact.

I did. Having been lucky enough to have been there and smart enough to know I would never make it, I can't understand why you would want to continue this argument. Unless of course you are also posting regularly on the AMLU site...[/i]

Dear Sir, you have a few facts in error.

1. MiLB umpires only get paid during the season.
2. Very few winter ball slots are open
3. With the exception of Rookie/ Short A, the MiLB season runs from April to Sept. How do you get two seasons work? - there is no decent paying ball played Oct to Feb.
4. Starting pay in MLB is ~$85-$90k (Depends on how many years of AAA/MLB fill-in one does before being called up full-time).

I agree that MiLB would survive without the umpires. Over time there would be significant issues that MLB would be forced to correct, as there is going to be many openings there in 10-12 years.

I wonder how MiLB would feel if the unions (AFL/CIO, Teamsters, etc) banded together with a "Don't go to the ball park" campaign ....

I'll only address this commment.

Yes, it does - you are asking for a union apprenticeship wage. Plenty of apprentices work in kitchens, construction sites, offices and schools for pitances. Why should a Rookie ball umpire with no seasoning get paid anything close to what the top 1% of all umpires make? You make me laugh.

I suppose you think that a kid signed straight out of high school to a developmental league should receive a large portion of the MLB minimum? That makes as much sense.

Why wouldn't we be using union apprenticeship wages as a measuring stick? These are union members we're talking about.

You're assertion about rookie umpires not commanding a decent percentage of MLB umpires is a little skewed when compared to what trade union apprentices make by comparison. A trade union apprentice is taken on at 20% of journeyman scale in our union. These young men and women bring absolutely no applicable job skills with them when they enter the program. When they start they are little more than material handlers and floor sweepers. Still they command an equitable percentage of scale.

The MiLB umpires are the best that Evans and Wendlestedts has to offer. They bring significant skills to their trade from day one. They don't need to be babied and pampered for 5 years as they develop their skills like a trade apprentice does. Therefore they deserve to make an equitible percentage of MLB pay.

Tim.

Tim, we have often disagreed but I am not posting this just to exacerbate old issues. You cannot compare two separate unions anymore than you can say that high school umpires in Idaho should get the same as college umpires in Florida. The WUA contract if for a very select few that have proven themselves. They are the CEOs of the umpiring world. The Rookie league guy has a trunk full of equipment and a couple weeks of schooling. They are not in the same ball park.

They do need to be babied and brought along slowly. You don't jump from Rookie to AAA no matter who you are. The average stay is almost seven years of constant hand holding and criticism.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

from another:

Dear Sir, you have a few facts in error.

1. MiLB umpires only get paid during the season.
2. Very few winter ball slots are open
3. With the exception of Rookie/ Short A, the MiLB season runs from April to Sept. How do you get two seasons work? - there is no decent paying ball played Oct to Feb.
4. Starting pay in MLB is ~$85-$90k (Depends on how many years of AAA/MLB fill-in one does before being called up full-time).

I agree that MiLB would survive without the umpires. Over time there would be significant issues that MLB would be forced to correct, as there is going to be many openings there in 10-12 years.

I wonder how MiLB would feel if the unions (AFL/CIO, Teamsters, etc) banded together with a "Don't go to the ball park" campaign ....

1) Most employees only get paid when they actually work. What is your point? Are you saying that they should get when they don't work? I hope my employees don't read this.

2) Again, what is your point about Winter slots being open? If they are available, they can accept the assignment. I simply offered that there regular season is only 3-5 months. They have other opportunities to get assignments or instruct. All of them do.

Dick Butkus used to have to sell cars during the off season. Ernie Banks sold insurance to make ends meet. They were well trained and future stars, but their bosses decided that they should be paid a certain wage and they lived with it.

You really shouldn't argue that MiLB umpires are incapable of additional income. I made more teaching during the off season than I did from my contract.

3) I believe that many of our members can shed some light on the warmner climates our country has too offer. In Texas, Arizona and Florida baseball is played year round.

4) So what is my error? That the AAA umpire who works a five month season gets 20% of the salary of an elite guy who works seven months? I hope you don't use that logic at work. "Boss, I'm here the same hours as you, yet I get only a fraction of your take home pay. That's not fair."

Are you kidding about the don't go to the ball park schtick? Now I know you never lived in rural American or worked the Appy or Gulf Coast leagues. The only entertainment in some of those small towns is the local ball club. Dime beer night is a big draw for those union boys! Did you really think that the unions would stay away from MiLB ball parks to support 230 guys who are some of the least loved in those towns? I am LMAO.

MLB will fill their vacancies the same way that the NFL and NBA do. It won't be long before we see a foreign big league umpire. We saw them during the Olympics and will see many in the upcoming Classic. They are just as good and deserve a shot. Plenty of D1 guys will gladly accept Spring Training assignments. The pros already get their talent from college, now they'll glean the best from those ranks as well. At best we are talking about two or three slots a year for the next decade. If you do the math, you'll find that it makes perfect sense to the bottom line MLB.

[Edited by WhatWuzThatBlue on Feb 2nd, 2006 at 08:39 PM]

Mine's not guaranteed, but in 32 years I've received 31 annual cost of living increases. I don't get meals paid for when I'm at home, but I do get my hotel, travel and meals paid for in full when I'm on the road.

Mike

I am sure the MiLB guys are very informed, and know exactly what they are doing and what they are giving up.

If you think it's crap that a minor league umpire wants a cost of living increase to survive, and that since minor league baseball doesn't want to pay them anymore, then that's okay, then that is just your opinion. I have mine, you have yours. I just can't side with minor league baseball on this one. Sure i'm biased...I'M AN UMPIRE! If I can ever see umpires making things better for themselves, then i'm for it.

But he question is this. If the MiLB guys leave? How much is that worth to the game of baseball? I think a cost of living increase (which wouldn't be close to nothing out of the pocketbook of minor league baseball) is going to be worth it to keep those 230 guys working in minor league baseball. The game would still go on, but not quite as well. It would be different...and giving these guys $700 more a month seems like an awful small price to pay to keep the better umpires around and keep things uniformed and easy.

Remember...the minor league umpires aren't trying to screw over minor league baseball...it seems to be the other way around though.

Thanks Mike, so do they.

I own my own business so I don't have a boss (my wife would disagree.) It's been a long time since I received a paycheck from someone else, but I have many friends who do. One of my best friends has worked for Motorola for almost twnety years. He is guaranteed nothing. He could walk in tomorrow and be replaced by two college grads. A few years ago, he had his salary cut and was thankful to still have a job when so many were downsized. I'll never understand the union mindset that you deserve more for just doing your job. Most employees get merit raises based on performance. If they just meet expectations they get nothing. Rewarding mediocrity is what destroys most business and gives unions a bad name. There may be a few unions that actually do push their employees to perform at a higher standard. But there are an awful lot that want more for those that just count the minutes until the shift is done.

The MiLB umpires do deserve more, that is not the issue. My problem is that if they walk away without a contract, then they deserve to be replaced. No one likes an umpire, especially when they are asking for money.

Minor League baseball will survive without a union of Minor League umpires. The league controls the umpires not teh other way around- that's what bosses do.

According to their stats, a Rookie umpire makes about $1,800 a month, plus benefits, housing and per diem. A thirty five percent increase is preposterous. Corporate America averages 3-5% merit increases. That seems awfully selfish.

How do you think the poor S.O.B. that is taking in an APPY game feels about a $700 a month increase? He might spend telve hours a day in a mine and wants to have a beer and hotdog with the guys once a week. (About a buck for both on promo nights.) Do you think he'll understand why the umpire needs to make more than he does? Most Minor League perks are in small town USA. Those fans would love a $700 a month increase for waiting tables, digging ditches or seeping floors.

Don't give me any BS about MiLB being able to afford it. The fans pay for it in the end - literally and figuratively.

The figure came from a minor league umpire. According to him the current pay schedule is close to 15,000 for AAA, 12,000 for AA and 10,000 for full time A.

The inital request according to this umpires was for 45,000; 30,000 and 25,000....no too far from 300%. If this voting member of the AMLU is correct, I'll be happy to tell him. Just let me know.

At the current pay I don't know why anyone would want to be a minor league umpire. The odds of striking it big are better in Vegas and they have AC and eye candy in all the casinos.

I think that they are looking for a cost of living increase...not a merit based increase. I don't see how that is selfish.


You are right though...average joe probably won't care about the umpire...people don't like umpires. But I AM AN UMPIRE. So I WILL care about another umpire, and that's why I wouldn't work.

Everything is more expensive now a days...EVERYTHING. Gas, food, housing, clothes...things cost more. Every year that the minor league umpires salary stays the same...their actually making less. I checked with my local high school assignor. The game fees have increased by 30% in he last 10 years. I'm not sure about college game fees, but I wouldn't be surprised if it's about the same. Why should professional umpires not be seeing the same cost of living increases?

Did you really just think that a 300% cost of living increase is okay? That is what they are asking for after all.

I think if fans had gone TEN YEARS without a raise they would gladly take their $700 a month raise. Not ten months, not 2 years. TEN YEARS.

JUST got off the phone with a friend of mine who was in AA last year. He didn't want me to use his name, but I called because I wanted to ask him about the 300% thing. He said they aren't asking for 300%, and said that whoever got that idea is just mistaken...he couldn't give me an exact figure, because he said that it's a bargining process and most of the guys don't even know the EXACT figures and he didn't think it was right for the figures to leave the bargining table. But he did say that it's likely they are asking for more than they'd take, because that's how bargining works. I understand that. It's like when I bought my first car, my first offer and his first offer were just posturing...and we met int he middle. But he assured me that they aren't holding out for 300%...or anything close to that. I asked him what he personally felt was fair...and he said he'd like to have 50%, but probably would be okay with something a little less.

He just said that a 100 dollar raise was only a 4% raise for him. Not enough. And I agree. I asked him if they just gave a 3% raise for the past 10 years of not getting a cost of living increase, and made it like a 30% raise, if he'd be okay with that, and he said that'd be close to what he thinks is fair, but he'd like to see something where it was put in the contract that they'd get a 2 or 3% COL increase every year, that way when the contract was over, they wouldn't have to worry about trying to bargin for another raise.

When I hear the guys talk just like he did, I KNOW that my feelings on this are right. He isn't being selfish. He isn't ignorant to what's going on. He said he just wants to make things better for the younger guys. He didn't want to go another 10 years without COL increases. I definitely can understand that.

Well, even if these ARE correct numbers, which is speculation at this point, the increase is not 300%. It's 200%, 150%, and 150% respectively.

Let's be honest. Nobody knows the real figures. All we know for FACT is that minor league baseball offered a $100/ month raise, that would have been offset by an increase in medical insurance costs. So really...they offered nothing better than the current contract. That was rejected by the AMLU. IF THIS IS ALL THAT MINOR LEAGUE BASEBALL IS GOING TO OFFER THESE GUYS, HOW CAN YOU BLAME THEM FOR NOT WORKING?

Nobody gets anywhere in this world without standing up for themselves. If 1800 a month was just good enough 10 years ago, it's not going to be good enough now. Life is too expensive now a days.

In 1995 the federal minimum wage was 4.25. For 2005 it was 5.15. (And probably will go up soon) So even your lowest level workers are making 21% more than they did 10 years ago. Inflation exists. People should make more money than they did 10 years ago, because stuff costs more than it did 10 years ago.

Like I said, if MiLB offers these guys a contract that reflects this COL increase, and they still reject it...then I may feel different. But right now, I don't see how you can't stand by their side.

You are missing the point. No one has written that they don't deserve more. Some of us have written that they do, but if they walk out they deserve to be cut loose. Their union must be pretty horsehit if they can't bargain effetively for ten years. If I was one of the 230, I would think about reorganizing and finding a better lawyer.

Some of us have also said that while we wouldn't work those games, we don't fault those who do. If you think that it is important for those MiLB guys to make enough money to survive, why would you find fault in another umpire taking those games to support his family? There are many umpires who work solely for the extra income. There are a whole lot more who don't have to officiate for the revenue, but because of the extra income, they can afford some nicer things for their children and spouse. The contention here is that if you walk away, you can't fault those who replace you. You simply can't have it both ways.

Umpires are a hated bunch. We garner little sympathy from the general public. The major unions are aware of what is happening and this is still hidden article stuff. Their contract was void in Spetember. A decent leadership would have had a plan in place a year ago. It looks and sounds like Mr. Roberts has screwed the pooch.

Minor League umpires do deserve more, but they won't get it by walking out. MLB didn't blink when the umpires walked out before and they won't now. It was much harder to replace umpires then.

The sad fact of the matter is you're right, Windy. MiLB won't lose any sleep over replacing these umpires if need be. They'll still sells tickets and merchandise without a hitch.

I pray for their sakes it doesn't come to that.

Tim.

WCB wrote: <i>"According to their stats, a Rookie umpire makes about $1,800 a month, plus benefits, housing and per diem. A thirty five percent increase is preposterous. Corporate America averages 3-5% merit increases. That seems awfully selfish."</i>

Problem is - there's been no raise for 10 years if their claim is correct.

Thus the equivalent of going from 1,800 to 2,430 (a 35% increase) over the 10 years is a rate of increase of 3.0465% per year (it compounds folks).


Seems to me like that's less than the 3-5% you seem to think os OK.

Well, Rich, that would make sense if you didn't assume that they were overpaid ten years ago. The fact that they have not bargained for a raise over those years is suspect.

Look at how much umpiring has changed in the last ten years. The guys that were working ten years ago aren't even there now!

Hmmm,
 

History isn't really that important for this precise issue.

What is important is that this is the first contract that is being considered with an umpire union involved.

We really can't compare professional minor league umpire salaries from 10 years ago, five years, ago or even three years ago. Since there was no minor league union in those days there were never any serious discussions from umpires concerning pay rates.

We know from history that Steve Mattingly was released from his AAA contract because he began to organize the AMLU. His situation was much like Bill Valentine in MLB in the 1960's, the way organized professional baseball dealt with unionism was to cut loose the organizers.

FEAR often kept umpires from attempting any type of organizing.

What is relevant in this conversation is one thing and one thing only:

"What is the current value of an umpire at each level of the minor leagues?"

No one can force considerations of sins from the past. We live in a real time economy and all that matters is what price are people willing to pay for a specific service.

Do professional umpires deserve more money?

Maybe.

Tee,

This actually is not the first contract AMLU is bargaining for. This is their second. During the first contract, signed just after NLRB recognized them as a union in their field, there wasn't much haggling about salaries. As I understand, the additions they wanted were fairly minor. These included increased per diems, single motel rooms for umpires at Long-A and above, and the courtesy of flying them home for the dead period between spring training and the start of their league season. There may have been more but those are things I remember. That contract was signed 3-4 years ago to the best of my memory.

Prior to that there was no bargaining ability for MiLB umpires so the salary and benefits was whatever NAPBL said it would be.

Lawrence

LD:
 

The first contract was to recognize the union itself. The changes in pay rates were established at that time and the length of contract established.

There was really no negotiation as MiLB placed values into the contract as a starting point.

The contract, three years in length I believe, was ratified by the rank and file with little discussion.

At no time during the initial contract was there a discussion of a strike or lock out by either side.

This is the first negotiation that the union itself is doing.

...
 

I believe the first contract was 5 years long.

dcmb
 

You are correct.

Union formed in 2000 and contract signed in 2001.

Thanks,

I assumed no such thing.

Just pointing out that a 35% increase after 10 years is equivalent to getting 3.0465% per year during the same period. Not a preposterous selfish increase as you opined.

Re: Hmmm,
 

As with anything else in a semi-free market economy such as ours, a service is worth what a willing buyer and willing seller will exchange.

"Need" and "Deserve" are PR terms used in negotiations. Management will decided at what point they will be willing to do without the current umpires and the umpires will decide at what point they will be willing to look for different work. If the offer is somewhere in between, a contract will be signed.

There's no need to lose sleep over it. This isn't the Sistine Chapel or the cure to cancer. It's minor league baseball and, like it or not, the umpire is one of the more interchangeable pieces.

There are plenty of replacement pieces available. They may not start out performing as well, but they will get there over time. And, who or what has more time than minor league baseball. Almost everybody else there has no where else to go right now.

Edited to add:

I don't write this out of lack of empathy. My association is going through a similar issue, albeit at a lower level.

The local American Legion Baseball League has offered us a new agreement in which there is no compensation for mileage, No raise in umpiring fees at the AA and AAA levels, tournaments would pay $10 less per umpire, and the assigning fee would be 1/6th of what it costs to do business with them.

We have countered with a one-time final proposal that would call for slight increases in fees, no penalties for tournament work, and an increase in the assinging fee to 1/3rd of what it costs to do business with them. We were willing to swallow hard and not address the mileage issue at this time.

We are not whining about what we deserve or need. We have simply explained to them the minimum of what we will accept. If they decide they are not willing pay that amount, we will not work their games and they will find other umpires elsewhere.

[Edited by GarthB on Feb 4th, 2006 at 02:11 PM]

It seems funny that TAC, Garth and I actually can agree on something.


Rich, I usually like reading your posts but these past few are a touch unnerving. If they signed an agreement five years ago for the salary they currently make, then they have no grounds for *****ing about the past five years!

Most of us recognize that they deserve more money, we all want more for our games. More than a few of us have an issue with demanding so much more or they will walk away. That is an empty threat as they will be easily replaced. Sure the talent level will be different, but that happens in every amateur game across America. Just because you had a great crew for the last game, doesnt mean that today's will be the same.

All of us pay more for the necessities of life. The cost of living has risen dramatically. Turning your back on an income in this day and age borders on stupidity. They need to reorganize, hire better attorneys and bargain for a contract that acknowledges that they are simply a resource, not the driving force in MiLB. If they don't recognize that soon, they will be working amateur ball and lose any hope of walking onto the field at Yankee Stadium as an MLB crew member.

"all of us pay more for the neccessities of life" ... including MiLB umpires. But their pay has not increased accordingly and their purchashing power has decreased. This is something you continually refuse to acknowledge.

"Turning your back on an income in this day and age borders on stupidity." - as does continuing to work ad undervalued wages.

Agreed. And they can discontinue working "ad(sic) undervalued wages" at any time.

You have made a false statement. I like Garth just fine as a smartass, and I'm not nobody.

Keep on posting, Garth. A little levity livens things up.

I posted nothing as a smartass. I posted a simple truth. That you disagree does not make it a counter-productive statement.

In the semi-free market system in which we live, if one doesn't like his pay or his working conditions or his boss or whatever, he is free to move on to another position which he will find more to his liking.

What the heck is smartass about that?

Unless you're under the age of 16, you should understand that each one of us is soley responsible for our actions and we thus accept both the rewards and the consequences of those actions. And that includes the decisions we make as to where we work.



[Edited by GarthB on Feb 5th, 2006 at 04:51 PM]

The BIG GAME starts in a little while and the commercils were'nt rocking my world, so I though I'd check in here.

DCMB just amazes me. To wit -
"all of us pay more for the neccessities of life" ...
including MiLB umpires. But their pay has not increased accordingly and their purchashing power has decreased. This is something you continually refuse to acknowledge."

I have done no such thing. They aren't forced to work that job for those wages. They signed contracts agreeing to the terms. You fail to acksnowledge that important piece of the puzzle.

There are many people that wish that they had pay raises over the last five years (stop saying ten, they signed the contract five years ago, so you are misleading the board). Maybe the rate they are paid has not changed in ten years, but that would indicate that they were probably overpaid ten years ago. If they felt that it was a smart move to sign the contract five years ago, FOR THE SAME PAY RATE AS THEY HAD FOR THE PREVIOUS FIVE YEARS - then they are stupid. Like I said, it is time to dissolve that union and reorganize. Mr. Roberts may not have been involved in the original bragaining, but he is accountable now. Those two hundred and thirty members should realize that they are on a sinking ship.

I'm going to make a bold assumtion here. I bet those 230 men...are QUITE A BIT more informed than you are. Yet...they seem to back "Mr. Roberts" and the AMLU. You think they are stupid...that's fine. You know VERY LITTLE about the situation compared to them. You may not be stupid...but you are uninformed. At least they are making informed decisions.

Actually...we are all on the outside of this...so we are the stupid ones. All we have are opinions and speculations. My opinion is I will not turn my back on my friends and other umpires. Your opinion is that you will.

This is the second post I have made about name calling. Thump what is the problem with saying what he said? Windy/WWTB said that he wouldn't work the games but wouldn't fault me if I did. How is that turning his back on them? Living here makes it easy to make friends with some minor league boys. I have learned a lot from them and consider them to be good guys. But, if they walk out and the league contacts my assignor, I will gladly accept whatever games they throw my way. Why is okay for you to call me a scab but he can't say that they are stupid for walking away? I said it before, name calling doesn't impress most umpires. You made a mistake regarding Windy/WWTBs statement and now you accuse anyone who takes games of turning our backs on our brothers. He made a good point about paying bills. Why is it more important for them to pay their bills then for me? Your logic is even more disturbing than your name calling.

I don't know where I "called names" A scab is a scab...it's not name calling, it's exactly what it is. Somebody who crosses a pickett line. If you have friends that are minor league umpires, then yes, I would say you would be turning your back on them, because you'd be hurting them, and i'd stick up for a friend, EVEN IF I THOUGHT THEY WERE WRONG...which I obviously don't this time. If the word scab is offensive to anybody, then I'll just refer to these people as "people who cross pickett lines." I didn't know these terms would be so offensive.

I don't agree with anybody who says they need to fill in for these guys for the extra money. From what I hear these games will pay less than d3 games...the pay will more reflect a HS game. Unless baseball is really hard to come by in your area, I am sure there are PLEANTY of those types of high school and college games you could work and make just as much, without hurting what the minor league umpires are trying to do.

I was just responding to the minor league umpires being called stupid by somebody who doesn't know all the facts. I don't know all the facts either...but when a few friends come to me, explain what they know, and ask me to help them out...I will. And I don't think they are stupid, so i'm going to stand up for them. They all seem to really respect Andy Roberts, so it's hard for me to listen to guys say that he is a horrible leader.

Pete had made it clear where he stands, for WWTB's argument that the 10 year multiple doens't apply...most of the guys that are in the game now - the people who make up the majority of the union and will not only be voting on this contract but will be the ones living with it for the majority of their careers (yes, I said the C-word) - weren't in the game 10 or 5 years ago. They didn't have a choice (I know, you're gonna say they knew what they were getting into when they signed on) but you can't say the 10 year arugment doesn't apply because they "accepted" it, a 25 year old in AA ball was 15 10 years ago and probably working LL ball.

"Maybe" (MAYBE? no, fact) "the rate they are paid has not changed in ten years, but that would indicate that they were probably overpaid ten years ago." How do you figure? This would seem to imply that they couldn't have both been underpaid both then and now, which is most likely the case. I know they agreed to work for a rate, which to you would imply they were paid accurately. I would argue that they accepted nonmonetary things before and now is the time for earnings to improve.

"If they felt that it was a smart move to sign the contract five years ago, FOR THE SAME PAY RATE AS THEY HAD FOR THE PREVIOUS FIVE YEARS - then they are stupid. Like I said, it is time to dissolve that union and reorganize. Mr. Roberts may not have been involved in the original bragaining, but he is accountable now. Those two hundred and thirty members should realize that they are on a sinking ship."

Your lack of support for fellow umpires is disheartening at BEST...

Well,
 

My view about the original contract is that:

1) The most important thing was to establish the union as a viable organization to collectivly pull individuals into a bargining unit.

2) Because the most important part was to form the union the orignal demands were kept to a minimum. Why antagonize the owners to a point that they would fight the union before it was even recognized?

3) The original wages and fringe benefits were establish by the common council of umpires/owners. The umpire representatives were smart enough to understand that for the future of having the union it was important to take a non-antagonistic position. They did that.

4) The original contract was accepted without much rancor. The umpires received small increases -- but more importantly -- the union was sanctioned and became part of the future of MiLB. That was the critical issue that was accomplished in the original deal.

5) Let's face one thing: MiLB umpires have NEVER been "over paid." The stories are documented about sleeping in cars, getting free meals from fans, and even selling "game used" baseballs to get enough money to even buy gas to get to the next game site.

So this is the "first" real postioning by the "union" to influence AMLU salaries.

We know the umpires need and deserve more money. The real question is how long will it take for them to get to a "workable and livable" wage that allows them the comfort they deserve.

I doubt if they can get there in one contract . . . and in these times, I doubt if any type of a job action will be affective.

But that is why they have people that fight for their rights.

Of course, this is just my opinion.


[Edited by Tim C on Feb 6th, 2006 at 11:07 AM]

"So this is the "first" real postioning by the "union" to influence AMLU salaries.

We know the umpires need and deserve more money. The real question is how long will it take for them to get to a "workable and livable" wage that allows them the comfort they deserve.

I doubt if they can get there in one contract . . . and in these times, I doubt if any type of a job action will be affective."

Agreed...great post Tim.

I think the umpires just want to see improvements in this contract...they dont want to change the system in one swoop...but they just want to make sure things don't continue to stay the same (which is actually making it worse because of inflation). The first offer from minor league baseball pretty much was what the old offer was. That was rejected. Minor League Baseball can do better than that. If they offered a contract that actually was an improvment, it'd be interesting to see what would happen then. But if that is all minor league baseball is going to offer, then what choice to the guys have but to walk? It's been 10 years...they can't agree to make it 15. And if they did...it would make it even harder to do anythign 5 years down the line. This is the first time they will negotiate while being unionized. And really, it's not a normal union, it's more of just bringing all the umpires together, because 5 years ago...they were VERY disorganized from what I hear...and now they seem to all be on the same page.

knowing the story
 

I know some of you have eluded to this, but I haven't read a post on this entire subject that is from someone who knows the whole story. I'd like to tell you the whole story, but I don't have the time. Also, I don't know the whole story. I continue to learn because I have kept my mouth shut and my eyes and ears open for the past three seasons, but the fact remains that I was not around the last time. That means I will probably never know the ultimate truth about the past negotiation period.

I do know this: one of the reasons that more things did not get accomplished last time was because of lack of communication. A good percentage of umpires sent their contracts in because they didn't understand the process (or at least that is what I've been led to believe). Communication is a tough thing for this union, but has been outstanding for the last few years.

As for compensation for our work: I never believed that it was fair. I did know what I was signing on for. I also knew that I had a fairly new union trying to make things better since people in the past were unable.

This contract is about more than compensation. This contract is about making our working conditions/road conditions a little better.

We are not asking for the world. I never expected for MiLB to accept our first proposal for a contract, as I'm sure they didn't expect us to fold for their first either. This is how negotiations work. And we are fighting for things that we believe (and others believe) are important.

Finally, as for the comments made about me personally: I don't know who you are, when I've worked with you last, or how well you know I work now. What I do know is that I support every umpire that is WORKING HARD, TRYING TO GET BETTER, AND LOVING THE JOB THAT THEY ARE DOING just like I am; I know that I am getting better and working hard towards my goal. THAT IS NOT BEING CONCEDED. And not that I need another reason, but you have given me a new incentive to try and reach my goal and I'll do everything that I can to get to that ultimate level of baseball.

Please continue to banter about things you guys are not well versed in. But if any of you have a problem with me, feel free to hash it out with me personally.

Derek Crabill

Attaboy Derek - You showed me!

Go back and read the post tat mentioned you. I took your quote from the AMLU board and put it here. You wrote those words, remember? The gist was that if MiLB came across with more money soon, you guys could concentrate better on the game. I can go get the exact wors, but you and I know that the synopsis is accuarate. What in the world were you thinking when you typed those words? Your season ended and the contract exired in November. You should have had no problem focusing on the task. To imply otherwise would indicate that your dream is farther out of reach than you acknowledge.

Also, I complemented you and said that your talent may best be served locally if your colleagues walk away from their ST assignments. To say that I motivated you to achieve is about as pointless as lacking concentration on an MiLB field.

Lastly, I'me better versed than you suspect. I have contacts in the Minors home office still. I speak with Fitz' gang a few times a year and know a dozen guys in AA and AAA. I've been told about how the AMLU is demanding conduct penalties for coaches and players, better per diems and living arrangements for ST and a better transport allowance. Now, those things don't seem far fetched (well, sanctions for players and coaches does, but I don't want to hurt your feelings), but to say that we don't know what is going on is egotistical. While you were still in diapers, I was working my assignments in MiLB and we didn't have half the bennies you guys do. We ate and slept in my partner's car the first season. We had to buy our own gear and didn't make money teaching on the side. We ate, drank and slept our jobs. Complaining about three hour bull sessions after the game was not part of our psyche. We knew we were getting little pay, but we prayed that someone would recognize our talent for being greater than it really was.

You ask us to support our brothers - I will. I will not work those games, even if asked. However, some of my friends will and I will happily watch them. They deserve to work those games if you and your colleagues walk away. Asking them to stay away is not a sign of solidarity. When amateur umpires hold out for more money, you are nowhere to be seen. At the IACAO clinics, the MiLB guys walk around with a haughty arrogance that wasn't present when I was in the ranks. Admit it, you think you are above High SChool and College ball. The way things are going, you may need those games to pay your bills. When the AMLU starts getting supportive of amateur organization bargaining then you can request that replacements become scarce. Until then, you are in a poker game with a losing hand. MiLB has deep pockets and knows that they can exist with replacements. The turnstiles will still move because fans go to see the game, not the umpire. You guys won't have the same luxury, when you stop working, the checks stop coming. Mr. Roberts, et al should have folded and asked for a new deck.

Oh man, is someone bitter!

Sorry you have such bad feelings for the union. How about reducing the emotions, sticking with the facts for now & see how this all plays out?

Derek, Don't Bother
 

DC, we're behind you guys all the way. You don't need to justify anything to anyone out here, especially to that Windbag. The funny thing is that nobody has any idea what you're going thru, the decisions you're faced with. It's easy to second guess from our side of the fence.

This has been an interesting post...but me personally? When I see guys sacrificing the first 10 years of their post-College careers (families, jobs, etc.) to chase an all-or-nothing dream like this, they have my 100% support! It takes some real kahunas that most of us have never had.

Stick to your dreams bro...catch ya down the road.

JC

I can speak from experience when I say that Derek didn't hold himself above me or any of other college or high school guys at a clinic he was helping with like two years ago, and he doesn't seem like a guy that would do that from what I know. He was one of us, a part of our association, and wasn't walking around like he's the cock of the walk. He helped with plate mechanics for a bit and never acted like he was better than anyone there, or above anyone there. In actuality he is better, but he was there to teach and did it well along with his other instructors (John Tumpane was one).

I only talked to the guy for a minute or two, but I'm behind him.

My God, FVB9 you are delusional?

Where did I write that they don't deserve more money? Where did I write that they aren't allowed to dream? I've acknowledged that they are talented (even pointed out that DC was very good!) but will lose everything by walking away from their ST assignments. I have also written that this union is fooling themselves if they believe that they can make the Minor League powers blink. The contract should have been negotiated a year ago. I have spoken with a couple of guys in that group and they are disoragnized to say the least. They are seeking a laundry list of changes not just a few more dollars to live on.

Umpires don't dictate the game. They should have learned that from their big brothers, but they are letting egos get in the way. They can't have it both ways. Most rational people know that they are considered to be in training. If the word apprenticeship offends you then that is too bad. They are fighting to be one of 68. The odds of becoming a MLB umpire are not good. They learned in pro school that they need to be one of the best dozen or so to earn a MiLB roster spot. The learn in Short A or Rookie Ball that they need to be one of ten to be asked to advance to Full A. The progression and odds continue until they are left with a tiny shot at the brass ring.

Now, in all of my posts I have mentioned that while I respect that they want and deserve more, if they decide to walk away, any assignor that blackballs an umpire for taking those games is a major league a-hole. Who are you to say that it is more important for the minor leaguer to make ends meet than an amateur who is struggling to make ends meet? On one hand, you have a guy who signed on for the low pay in return for a shot at the dream. On the other you'e got a pretty talented umpire who could never afford to take that chance or is too old to do it now. He needs the money just as badly, but you say he's a scab for taking it. That's B.S.! I won't take those games, even if asked, but I will not hold it against someone who does. The Minor Leagues are proving grounds and if someone wants to test their abilities I say, go for it. Maybe they'll realize how difficult it is or maybe they'll shine. As an assignor, FVB9 why wouldn't you want the best games for your umpires? Oh yeah, loyalty to a few outweighs the betterment of the whole. When Chicagoland umpires were seeking pay raises for our games, did our Minor League brethren give a ****? I didn't see any of them standing up for our fights. If they made a bad business decision then they have to suffer the consequences. This next contract should ask for reasonable increases and recognize that they are apprenticing. Pretending that they control the league is tomfoolery.

FVB9 wrote:

"DC, we're behind you guys all the way."

After reading this entire thread: please define "We".

Thanks,

I just don't understand who you are talking to, because the guys I talk to say the exact opposite, and I see no reason for them to lie to me.


I'm sorry you feel this way WWTB. We had Ed Hickox, Josh Carlisle, and Brian Reiley come help instruct a clinic for one of the associations i'm in. I had not met any of these guys before, but after meeting them I honestly felt like they honestly wanted to help me become a better umpire, and they NEVER acted cocky or like they were better than me. I've also worked some college ball in February down in Florida with some of the younger MiLB umpires, and let me tell you this. They were AWESOME to me. They did not come across like they were about the game, or above me. They were happy to answer any questions I had, and never made me feel like I was bugging them, because I asked a lot of questions. But they NEVER made me feel like they thought they were too good for me, or college ball. I am sorry that they weren't there to help you out in Chicago. I'm sure almost all of the MiLB guys didn't even know what was going on there.

All I can speak for is my personal experiences...so I'm not going to generalize and say "all MiLB guys are like this"...but the ones i've met are great guys, who are down to Earth, very personable, and have a love for umpiring that goes beyond anything i've ever seen. I have yet to meet a professional umpire who acts like he's above me or the level of baseball I work.


I've never met you before Derek, but good luck with everything. I really respect everything you guys are doing. It takes a lot of guts.

It's all good to agree that they are underpaid, or treated poorly. They probably are.

But, as much as I hate landing on Windy's side of any argument, the point that he's made about it being relatively easy for Baseball to replace these guys at THEIR wages is accurate. While many or most of the guys posting here, along with a lot of "pro-union" types out there, will refuse to cross over, there will be PLENTY of guys that will. There may even be a drop in quality, but I suspect that the almighty dollar will rule the decisions of MiLB on this one.

Now... if we really want the umpires to win this greivance, what we need is for a bunch of us to cross the line, and then TRULY suck at our jobs. That might cause them to think twice. Anyone know what PWL, Thomas White, and dumbdrumb are doing this spring?

But that ain't gonna happen.

Now I like that idea!. Average 5-10 ej's per game, have a huge strike zone .... LOL, that would be fun!
'
Where is Lance when you need him?

"All I can speak for is my personal experiences...so I'm not going to generalize and say "all MiLB guys are like this"...but the ones i've met are great guys, who are down to Earth, very personable, and have a love for umpiring that goes beyond anything i've ever seen. I have yet to meet a professional umpire who acts like he's above me or the level of baseball I work."


On the surface this is a nice sentiment. Ask some of them to work a high school game some time. Better yet, when their season is over, ask them to work an underlevel game. Don't get me wrong, I was the same way when I got done. There was no way you would get me on a high school field. It took a long time before I figured out that if I was that good, I would have been noticed by Fitz and Co. I am really friendly with a few AA and AAA crew. We shoot the s*** once in a while. Sometimes it's at the ballpark when Brinkman gets us free tickets or sometimes after when he and his crew are in town. (Joe and Bruce take care of those they liked at their old school.) It never amazes me how often the younger MiLB guys put down college crews. They joke about their lazy mechanics and lack of discipline. Maybe these are the bad seeds, but I've been around too long and seen too many to know better.

Again, I hope that they get their act together and wise up before walking away from ST assignments. Those with seven years or more invested will be throwing it all away. Did anyone see the WUA's position on the matter? I haven't seen them being to vocal about their brethren. A few misguided members insist that we should rally around them. Yeah, I can't wait for you to do that when the local teacher's union walks out in your town. You'll be screaming for them to get back to work. Shortsightedness has no place in an umpire's kit bag.


TAC - I have to admit, that was a nice catch. ;)

Mike (WCB), go to sleep...it's getting late there (10PM) and your kids will be up early!

Your points are well taken...time will tell. Coming home soon?

You have joined a legion of others who are mistaken. I'm amused to see where this goes.

What happened? I thought this was going to play out like the others. Maybe you finally got ahold of one of his newsletters and found that even with another dozen years of schooling his writing skills would never match mine. You gave him too much credit and me, not enough. It would have been fun to see you tear apart another UMPS guy though.

I hope these guys get what they deserve. The last time there was a contract renewal they actually lost $200. I already know guys in my area that are getting called to fill in and all of them have turned the teams down because they reconize that us as umpires are somewhat brothers in arms. We understand each other and what we do (for the most part) unlike players and the joe schmo down the street, they cannot possible comprehend that.
Minor or major league level blues always catch the sh!t end of the stick right wrong or indifferent. These guys are not asking for the world and some of them have said a few hundred a month more would be nice. College officials can make more in a month than these guys in a couple and they are calling lower level ball.

If I get a call, I am behind the blues and will not call even the AA team here in town.