"That's TWO you missed today blue!!"


Would you eject him on the spot?

thanks

bossman

Ah,
 

No.

Tee

No-I would not eject him on the spot.
Is coach talking to you or your partner? (You are both "Blue"). Is the comment following a "heated" discussion or just coach trying to "work" you or your partner?
IMO: If you are on "edge" where the comment makes you think "toss the coach", you will most likely "toss" many coaches.
Sam

there is no reason to eject a coach for this. I would not respond, but i have heard others simply say something to the effect of "no, your batter just missed two great pitches." It is the coaches job to keep me on my toes. If he really thinks my zone is a bit off, i would appreciate some constructive criticism. It is when the coach says "get some glasses, you blind piece of crap" that i give him the warning. Two strikes and you are out law is easily applied to verbal dissent.

"It is the coaches job to keep me on my toes."

Are you brand new?

"If he really thinks my zone is a bit off, i would appreciate some constructive criticism."

Hunh?

"It is when the coach says "get some glasses, you blind piece of crap" that i give him the warning."

Now I know you're just being silly.

"Coach, you won't be around to count to four."

--Rich

ok thanks guys. i just wanted some opinions. i was leaning toward letting it go anyways.

That's a pet peave for me. But it would be rare and depend on the circumstances that it would be met with an ejection. Usually, I tell him, "Counting my mistakes is your first mistake. You won't get two!"

Mike

when you tell him this, do you absolutely eject him when he gets to two?

Absolutely. A warning that is ignored by the coach is his problem. If it is ignored by me, it becomes my problem.

Mike

Amen Mike. You give a coach a warning and don't live up to it then you lose credability and probably total control of the ball game.

ANY warning that is not heeded by the coach should be an ejection. Otherwise, any further warnings you give to anyone have no effect.

Wow!!!!!

You new umpires out there read and re-read Phillips.Alex post because it's an example of what "not" to do.

1. It's not the coaches job to keep the umpire of their toes. You keep youself on your toes or you'll have a bad game.
2. Don't let the coach give you 'constructive' criticism regarding your strike zone. You do that then you might have two different strike zones for each game.
3. When the coach say's anything to you that begins with "You..." toss him at once, unless he says "You are the best umpire I have ever seen, it is an honor to have you work this game". Come to think of it I might toss him for saying that too, depending on his attitude.

Back to the original subject. I had a coach one game that said "Allan, that's the second bad call you've made this game", I said "Coach, let me know when the bad call count gets to 5" He never mentioned it again. Wait, maybe I didn't make any more mistakes :-)

[Edited by Justme on Jan 24th, 2006 at 10:03 AM]

think about this though. who is he to tell you anything about umpiring? sure, hes a coach, and maybe he knows the game, but does he know umpiring? the answer is no, in almost all cases (99.999%). i dont think a police officer would appreciate it if you pulled over to the side of the road and told them how to aim their radar gun at passing cars. you dont know how to do it, you arent trained to do so.

Hold on here. DON'T just let it go. It needs to be addressed. I suggest what Rich said.

The key is to ensure that the coach and EVERYBODY else knows you heard it and that any more bull**** like that will lead to an ejection.

The biggest problem with game management is that we fail to manage it early. Then, once we finally do, its too late.

Blaine

Man, it's a good thing that you don't have the dugouts bugged. ;-)

I like the police analogy. They can be overly sensitive. I was late for a game once and got pulled over for doing 80 in a 40 mph zone. It took the cop forever to write out a ticket. After a while, I walked back to the patrol car, tapped on the window, and said to him, "I don't know if you noticed, but I was in a hurry."

I disagree.

The biggest problem is that we fail to know when it needs managing and when it does not. Some games need NO management whatsoever, and many feel that they have to insert theirselves into the contest anyway.

Sometimes, responding to every comment shows the coach how thin skinned you really are. You have shown him how to get to you. Your playing right into his hand.

We are there to officiate a contest first. If somewhere along the line it requires a little managment, (late or early) then knowing when that point is and how to be effective, is the key.

Granted, at some point the coach will be given a warning that he may not be able to get back across the fence he is climbing, if he continues. But, there is no need to use this for every comment made.

I had a coach once tell me "thats two pitches you missed today blue." To which I replied, "and if that is all I miss for this game coach, then consider it a job well done."

Ignoring bench jockying is an invitation for escalation. Sometimes all that is needed is a stern look, or a quiet comment that you heard him. Other times, like in the original scenario, a warning is needed. But you can't just let it go. Too often, that is the reason they can't climb down off that fence. And ugly games never turn pretty again.

Mike

Who said anything about ignoring things?

If you feel that you have to insert yourself in every part of the game, go for it. I don't need to babysit and , my games NEVER get ugly.

The key is confidence in yourself and your ability to reel that rope in at any time to gain the control necessary to finish the games fairly and with minimum incidents.

For each of us, that confidence and tolerance may be different, based upon your experience. So what you may judge as being necessary to control, I may see as something that I should just ignor. Knowing when to insert yourself is a fine line that each official has to understand when applicable.

Having the ability to do so at the right time, is the separation between the good and really good official.

"Constructive criticism" is arguing
balls and strikes in disguise.

Jim, you proved my point. To THIS statement, you responded. You told the coach, in your way, "Listen butthead, I heard you now shut up."

I agree that not everything needs a response. But, THIS statement can't go unchallenged. Lots of other crap yes, but not THIS. Had the coach said something like, "come on blue we need that pitch," I ignore it. The difference is with the first statement is he is challenging me.

Everything else you have said, I agree. Well said.

Blaine

Jim:

I agree with what you said, except one thing.

Your games Never GET UGLY? Hogwash. I have worked 25 years, multiple National Championships, etc. I have had the benches clear, 9 ejections in one game, yada, yada.

And I AM a very good official.

Some games just get out of control despite our best efforts. I have done everythign perfectly and have the benches clear. I have done a horsesh** job and had them clear. If you do enough games with guys who shave, you will have "ugly" games. If you don't belive me, just look at the Pros.....and I would suspect they are pretty good umpires too.

Blaine

Ok you caught me and I agree. But I am allowed to believe it.

I agree.

Do I eject a coach for saying something so pointless?

No.

What if he said, "That's about twelve you've missed today."?

Depending on the level of ball being played, I may just look at him and laugh. Who cares what a coach thinks about your call?

[/B][/QUOTE]

Jim:

(portions deleted)

And I AM a very good official.

(more deleted)
just look at the Pros.....and I would suspect they are pretty good umpires too.

Blaine

[/B][/QUOTE]
Now that's confidence!

Mike

I don't feel the need to insert myself in every situation, but if a coach starts "counting" anything, I'm handling it.

We don't need to react to every assine statement a coach makes. Save the big ammo for when you need it. In this case I may ignore the remark, I may just look at him and shake my head, or I may say something like " gee coach, its only the 2nd inning". I really don't care what he thinks. Do you guys?

Never lose your head when all those around you are.

Bob

Please read my post again. You shouldn't care if he's counting how many 'bad' calls for the last ten years. Coaches opinions about my calls don't matter. Too mnay umpires worry about what coaches think and make calls accordingly. I don't expect to make calls based on whether they think it is correct or not.

I like this thread.

The consensus seems to be: put up a measured or proportional response when the coach begins challenging you.

One difference between Jim's response and some others is that he is "deflecting" rather than "escalating." As Blaine notes, that does indicate to the coach that Jim heard him, but it disarms the comment rather than firing back.

Pro instructors have told me that game management can't really be taught. Fortunately, it's only a tiny percentage of what we do. Some guys know how to cope with situations, and some otherwise superlative umpires get blown up. It's the skill that allows you to advance to the highest levels of pro umpiring, and the rarity of situations is one reason that the apprenticeship is so long.

My own view is that good management requires both a thick skin and good ears; both wisdom and courage; both patience and aggressiveness; and both backbone and balls. To some it comes naturally, others take years to develop it, and some never get it.

And they're all here on the forum!

I am not that good.

Sometimes nothing gets to me.

Sometimes any badly timed peep can set me off.

Hi, I'm D-Man and I am a schitzophrenic umpire.

If I spelled that correctly, I am lucky.

I would not run the coach for the given remark UNLESS he let me know about number one first AND it would have had to have been loud enough for both benches to hear AND I would have had to have warned him first.

Then again maybe not.

d-Man

In the past I have done two things with Managers who count. Once I pulled out the line up card, looked it over and said "Well Skip it looks like you at least did one thing right this time!" at which one of his bench players who was keeping score (men's game) responded "Hell you can read that thing at least you're not blind"

The second time I got it from both the Skip and F6 (who committed three errors up to that point of the game) and said "Well Skip I am trying to keep up with your shortstop". Skip gave a good chuckle and F6 was slient the rest of the game.

it seems a bit inappropriate to bring a players performance into chatter with coaches
maybe its just me...

A measured, calculated response is not "blowing up."

Most of the time I would agree, but with the teams I see I tend to know most of the players pretty well, and know which ones I can say that to.

One of my rules of thumb in baseball - and life - is, "Consider the source". Is the coach who said, "That's two you've missed today" someone I know and respect? Is he a grizzled vet or a young buck? Did he put on a "show" in his delivery of the line? Is there any indication why he was trying to show me up? Was it a onetime comment out of the blue (no pun intended) or was it one in a string of other "editorial" comments on the quality of my umpiring? Once I measure all of this information, I can measure my response.
Have I ejected a coach for this comment? Yes. Regularly? No. Have I ignored this comment? Yes. Regularly? No. I'm an umpire. Type A personality. I don't like to be attacked - especially by a coach who has not been trained in nor worked at the levels of umpiring through which I've moved.

JJ

Anoher comment that is sure to set me off - "Call it both ways, Blue!"
When I hear that from anyone participating in the game, I issue a warning, saying "Coach, that comment means that you think I am giving the other team something I am not giving you. You are questioning my integrity. I may miss a call, but you will NOT question my integrity as an umpire!"
I have never had to eject a coach for repeating the comment. And most coaches in my area remember not to use that phrase in future games.

The "Call it both ways" comment is an immediate ticket to the showers in my games! I give no warning for calling me a cheater and I have ejected several coaches over the years. Come to think of it, they were all in AAU games!

Never had those comments in HS games or any of my adult games. Must be an AAU thing.

I too have a quicker trigger on "Call it both ways". The only time I remember it not being an ejection was the top of the first inning, first batter. Instead of laughing at him, like I wanted to, I instead said something like "Can we at least wait until I blow one in the bottom of the inning before we make that kind of comment?"

Early in my umpiring days I would have let the "That's two you've blown" comment get to me, but after a while I came up with a way to deflect it and laugh it off. I say "no, coach I think it's three! I guess you missed one."

On the other hand, if they start in my direction, call attention to themselves and hold up the two fingers as they holler it with their veins popping out of their neck, hell yeah I'll run them then.

The "call it both ways" crack gets me. I don't run them automatically if it is the first time they say it, but I ask them if they are accusing me of cheating. That always seems to shut them up quick.

"Call it both ways."

Why does that bother you more than any other comment?
The coach is not questioning your integrity any more than he questions your judgement on a banger at second.

Getting upset at CIBW is silly. I do call it both ways - Fair/Foul, Strike/Ball, and Safe/Out. It just so happens that his team is not throwing strikes, getting outs or hitting fair balls. "

I'm not supposed to call it both ways coach. I'm paid to call them fairly." Look away and leave them scratching something.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
"Call it both ways."

"I'm not supposed to call it both ways coach. I'm paid to call them fairly." Look away and leave them scratching something. [/QUOTE

I like it!!!

Hate to disagree, but I know I'm not alone on this, so I will.

Saying to the umpire to call it both ways implies that you are calling it differently for one team than the other.

It further implies that that you are therefore cheating for that other team, which you are supposedly favoring with your calls.

I could care less if they like my banger at second. I know whether or not it was the right call. They can certainly question my safe/out call on a play. That is not the same as "call it both ways," which suggests dishonesty on the part of the umpire.

"Call it both ways" is a popular one for fans, who I ignore. Coaches don't use too often, but if they do I simply give them "the look" and ignore them also. If it happens too often I have baited a coach or two by asking if they are complaining about balls and strikes. The answer either keeps them in the game, or not.

i was just joking earlier about coaches job being to keep us on our toes....however, i like the use of a disarming reply. It keeps the focus on the game and the coach off the heels... I disagree that game management is just a small part of our job, however. If you can give a good enough pre-game, you can usually make your job a hell of a lot easier. By the way, i could not disagree more with people who say to toss the coach for saying things like "that's two you missed today, blue" The coach is not arguing balls and strikes here, he is just pushing the line to see what kind of umpire you are... Saying something witty back is a joke (similar to what i said in my other post, and how it was just a joke) Umpires are to act at all times in a professional manner. One of the men who taught me how to officiate used to put it like this: If a coach or player ever calls you a worthless piece of trash, the correct response is this: Yes, sir. (then eject)

On the CIBW question, something like this would work.

"Coach, are you talking about that strike 3 on your last batter? I'd gladly call strikes for you, but your pitcher couldn't find the strike zone with a GPS system"

Just kidding, of course. ( I had to say that to prevent the 1,000 flaming replys and 3 PWL poems)

Bob

Maybe at higher levels, but at the lower levels you're giving the coach WAY too much credit.

CIBW means one thing only -- "Call it MY way." This one is easy for me to ignore. It's nothing comment, usually thrown in after a call goes the other way. Counting missed calls means the coach is trying to keep score.

Thank you Rich. I'm always amazed at those responses. If you are worried about a coach saying, "You blew that one.", "You missed another balk." or "That's two you've called wrong." I can tell what kind of umpire you are and what kind of games you call.

SDS, most solid veterans know when a coach crosses a line. These comments are petty gamesmanship, nothing more. Do you get your panties in a bundle when you call a high strike and the coach says, "Don't worry Timmy, you know that's not a strike." or better yet, "Relax, Timmy - he now has to call those strikes for us."? Yeah, I think I know the answer already - you're too predictable.

One thing I have NEVER done, or will ever do, is agree with a coach by saying "yes sir" to the above comment. Your instructor is mistaken with that advice..just eject and move on...

Well put
 

I like that way of putting it in perspective. Coaches are playing their little game just trying to gain an advantage. Too many times, umpires play along instead of umpiring.

Thanks
David

Can we let this four year old spammer-rebirthed thread die?

It's 6 years. And I like reading what I wrote six years ago. It even sounds somewhat intelligent.

6 years ago?? It seems like it was just yesterday....

How do you know I wasn't calling the spammer a 4-year old?

(What ... it isn't 2010?)

first time i come back to visit the baseball board in quite some time and see one of my old posts brought back up. thought that was funny!

hope all my good friends on the baseball board are doing well! i've since gravitated to football as my main sport.