The Next Generation of Pros

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Sal Giaco

Rut,
Do yourself a favor and go back to the basketball/football section of this forum because when it comes to baseball, you're about as clueless as most of the coaches out there.

Randy Christal would do a fine job working MiLB but there are very few umpires at the DI level that can work like him. As for your other ignorant comment about MiLB umpires skipping HS ball and going straight to the PRO game. You forgot to mention one thing, they are PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED and developed umpires - something that many college umpires don't have.

Face it, many NCAA umpires are either self taught or are "grey hairs" still hanging around the system because of "who they know" (mainly coaches). The fact is that college umpiring is getting younger and improving because of the training that is now available. Umpires' credentials are no longer based on how many years they've been umpiring but rather what experience and training they have had.

If you look at the NCAA umpires who work the big games (CWS and Super Regionals), many of them have previous PRO experience, usally at the AA & AAA levels. I'm done talking about this because I don't want to appear that I am bashing NCAA umpires, because I am one. I have a lot of respect of college umpires (for any umpires at any level for that fact), and we'll just leave it at that.

Here is the thing; all of this is like talking about what would happen if USC played some of the great teams in college football history. ESPN did that all last week and it meant nothing in the bigger picture. Texas beat USC anyway. I am sorry you think your opinion is so valuable, but it is not any more important than what I have stated. This is all speculation and all egos in this conversation. Maybe there are many that could not make the transition, but there are many that could. Not because I say so, but because there are people in this world that take on challenges and constantly succeed. Many D1 officials have had to overcome a lot to get to where they are and you are going to tell me they could not jump this hurdle? OK, whatever you say. As I said umpiring baseball is a lot easier than working a basketball game or a football game any day. Not because I say so, because most people that are successful basketball and football officials that take up umpiring tend to be better than those that have done nothing but work baseball. Why, because the skills it takes are very easy to adjust to. Some of the fattest and most out of shape officials in history of officiating have worked the Major League level (cough, Eric Gregg).

You are right, maybe I should stick to football and basketball because this absurd conversation would almost never be something that folks that officiate those sports would talk about. They would not ever make it sound as if they are so good that they cannot make that transition. As a matter of fact I have an NFL official that is in the same association I belong to (1 of 3 NFL officials to be accurate) and he says all the time the only reason he is in the NFL over many other people is that he got a shot. He never talks as if no one could make the jump. I have even heard many D1 and high level basketball officials make it clear that they are only where they are because they took advantage of the right breaks. When I come here you would make it sound like someone's skill would have to jump Pacific Ocean like advancement to even handle a pro game. It is also not like we are talking about a JH umpire making the jump from the pros. You said that a D1 umpire that might range from the 20 year veteran to the rookie could not make the transition to the pro game because the coaches know more? I am sorry. I am not buying that at all. I am not saying I could make that jump from where I am right now, but it would not be impossible if I got the opportunity. I do not think it would be impossible for anyone that is a go-getter and has confidence in themselves and will do the things it takes to achieve.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally posted by Sal Giaco

Rut,
Do yourself a favor and go back to the basketball/football section of this forum because when it comes to baseball, you're about as clueless as most of the coaches out there.

Randy Christal would do a fine job working MiLB but there are very few umpires at the DI level that can work like him. As for your other ignorant comment about MiLB umpires skipping HS ball and going straight to the PRO game. You forgot to mention one thing, they are PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED and developed umpires - something that many college umpires don't have.

Face it, many NCAA umpires are either self taught or are "grey hairs" still hanging around the system because of "who they know" (mainly coaches). The fact is that college umpiring is getting younger and improving because of the training that is now available. Umpires' credentials are no longer based on how many years they've been umpiring but rather what experience and training they have had.

If you look at the NCAA umpires who work the big games (CWS and Super Regionals), many of them have previous PRO experience, usally at the AA & AAA levels. I'm done talking about this because I don't want to appear that I am bashing NCAA umpires, because I am one. I have a lot of respect of college umpires (for any umpires at any level for that fact), and we'll just leave it at that.

I work three sports (baseball, basketball, and football) at about the same level (HS varsity, although I work in 2 D-III baseball confereces) and the toughest thing in any of the sports is being a solid, consistent plate umpire. Nothing else comes close.

[Bob Lyle]

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


I work three sports (baseball, basketball, and football) at about the same level (HS varsity, although I work in 2 D-III baseball confereces) and the toughest thing in any of the sports is being a solid, consistent plate umpire. Nothing else comes close.

Rich, I also work those three sports and I think that being a consistent plate umpire is only the second toughest.

The toughest job is staying out of the way or 250 lb lineman or running backs as the umpire in football. That's why I stick to linesman, line judge, or field judge.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

That's probably because you never had to work guys who can consistently throw a 90 mph cutters on the oustide corner or deuces that buckle the knees and end up just hitting the inside corner.

Unless I'm mistaken, the athletes don't make it a point of throwing the ball at you in basketball and football. Watching an excellent curve ball develop in flight or tracking a tailing/rising/sinking fastball is much tougher than spying linemen holding.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
That's probably because you never had to work guys who can consistently throw a 90 mph cutters on the oustide corner or deuces that buckle the knees and end up just hitting the inside corner.

Unless I'm mistaken, the athletes don't make it a point of throwing the ball at you in basketball and football. Watching an excellent curve ball develop in flight or tracking a tailing/rising/sinking fastball is much tougher than spying linemen holding.

Your assessment would be completely wrong. If Bob is an umpire on a football field, he is dodging 200-300 pound players that will do more damage if they hit him than a baseball being thrown at 100 miles per hour. Also a football umpire is being used as a pick play with tight ends running routes and you have to be careful not to get in the way when a running back is coming up the middle and you have no pads to protect yourself. Getting hit with a baseball is not that bad considering you have a bunch of padding in most places and the higher you work you are not likely to get hit with a baseball.

Secondly, a plate umpire only has to watch a baseball being thrown by a pitcher for a couple of seconds. A football official is watching several players in a small area for several seconds and you cannot watch the ball to do your job. A basketball official has to watch 10 players in an even smaller area and we do not get the luxury to stop after a second or two and wait for the next play. The action for the most part is constant and the clock does not run when the ball is obviously dead. As a plate umpire if a batter swings and hits the ball, I do not call anything. I can go up and down the court several times and make 20 decisions (which will not bring a whistle).

Now for some it might be a harder thing to work the plate, but working the plate is not as big of a chore as working a basketball game or football game in my opinion. Also, if I am working the bases it is even less of a struggle. And a football and basketball official has to fight to get into position to make a call. I have never had to fight hard to get into position to call a pitch.

Peace

[dontcallmeblue]

"I have never had to fight to get into position to call a pitch."

To me this shows the level of ball you work and your experience. The same way that Ted Williams said hitting a baseball is the most difficult thing in sports, calling a consistent plate game is the most difficult job in officiating.

[Tim C]

WWTB wrote:

" . . . excellent curve ball develop in flight or tracking a tailing/rising/sinking fastball . . ."

It is against the laws of physics for a thrown baseball to rise.

It cannot happen . . . just like there is no such things as a "late breaking curve ball" or a ball that "speeds up when taking a second bounce on artifical turf."

A ball "can" not sink as much as expected . . . but it cannot "rise."

Tee

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by dontcallmeblue
To me this shows the level of ball you work and your experience. The same way that Ted Williams said hitting a baseball is the most difficult thing in sports, calling a consistent plate game is the most difficult job in officiating.

Why is it all the officials that have worked other sports, take up baseball and excel? I know more officials that just picked up baseball and are a hell of a lot better than the guys that work 1000 games a year working only baseball.

Ted Williams' statement also does not apply. As an umpire I do not have to hit a pitch, I just have to decide if the ball crossed the strike zone and the plate. In one of my football playoff games this past season, I made a pass interference call that drew more attention than any pitch I have ever called in any game. When I call things in football and basketball, I have to see the play, decide if there was a foul, decide if their was some advantage, protect the safety of the players, then after all that has gone through my head, make a call. All I have to do is decide if the ball crossed the strike zone on a pitch that is caught over the plate. Yeah, really hard.

Peace

[DG]

Originally posted by WhatWuzThatBlue
That's probably because you never had to work guys who can consistently throw a 90 mph cutters on the oustide corner or deuces that buckle the knees and end up just itting the inside corner.

The 90 MPH cutter on the outside is harder for me to get right than the deuce that just hits the inside corner. That's an easy call.

[WhatWuzThatBlue]

From the limited wisdom of Rut...

"When I call things in football and basketball, I have to see the play, decide if there was a foul, decide if their was some advantage, protect the safety of the players, then after all that has gone through my head, make a call. All I have to do is decide if the ball crossed the strike zone on a pitch that is caught over the plate. Yeah, really hard."

I guess he has never seen a collision at the plate with the ball game on the line. That's much easier than, say, a roughing the passer or flagrant foul in football.

In baseball, I only have to worry about the running lane, the proper angle, whether the ball is held and a tag is applied (sometimes while straightlined) and if the runner tagged the plate. Then I have to decide which occured first and make the PROPER call.

I couldn't stop laughing when you wrote that you have to protect the safety of the players during an active play. How do you do that, perhaps you have forcefield powers???
LMAO

[JRutledge]

Windbag, you are a one hit wonder. When you decide to work a real sport call me.

Peace

[Kaliix]

Actually Tim, that is not entirely correct. A thrown baseball can rise, depending on the speed and elevation angle when released. It will not curve up, but it can rise. This I know.

If a ball is hit with enough velocity and spin, the first bounce will hit so fast that the overspin will only minimally effect the ball, but once the that velocity dips as the ball hits a second time, the overspin can cause it to kick forward and pick up speed for a short second. Just enough to screw you up. I think...

:-)

Originally posted by Tim C
WWTB wrote:

" . . . excellent curve ball develop in flight or tracking a tailing/rising/sinking fastball . . ."

It is against the laws of physics for a thrown baseball to rise.

It cannot happen . . . just like there is no such things as a "late breaking curve ball" or a ball that "speeds up when taking a second bounce on artifical turf."

A ball "can" not sink as much as expected . . . but it cannot "rise."

Tee

[briancurtin]

Originally posted by Kaliix
Actually Tim, that is not entirely correct. A thrown baseball can rise, depending on the speed and elevation angle when released. It will not curve up, but it can rise. This I know.

"Most significantly, I discovered that in order for the ball to truly rise in flight--for the Magnus force to exceed the weight of the ball--the pitch would have to be launched with a backspin of more than 3600 rpm. This is far beyond the capacity of any major league pitcher. High-speed photography shows that spin rates of about 1800 rpm are the best that can be achieved. Thus, it is not humanly possible to throw a true rising fastball. With the ball spinning at 1800 rpm and traveling at 90 mph, the Magnus force retards the vertical drop by a little more than a foot. Instead of dropping 3 ft. vertically on its way to the plate, the ball drops slightly less than 2 ft. I concluded that the rising fastball is an optical illusion. The ball appears to rise only because it doesn't fall as much as the batter expects it to--in other words, the ball rises only in relation to the batter's expectations."
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...tml?page=2&c=y


"Even the greatest pitchers can't violate the laws of physics. Once a ball is thrown, it follows a smooth trajectory. Physics simply doesn't allow abrupt jumps in that trajectory.
So what's happening? 'The batter is using the wrong mental model,' Bahill says."
http://uanews.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects...ArticleID=1109

[Dave Davies]

Rut, You are a Stud Muffin. I want to be just like You when You grow up.

Dave
****

[Kaliix]

As I said, the ball will not curve up. But a ball can thrown at a launch elevation angle so that it will achieve a greater height after it is thrown than when it was released. You've never seen a pitch rise up and go over the catchers head. Clearly that can and does happen.

Elevation angle...

Originally posted by briancurtin

"Most significantly, I discovered that in order for the ball to truly rise in flight--for the Magnus force to exceed the weight of the ball--the pitch would have to be launched with a backspin of more than 3600 rpm. This is far beyond the capacity of any major league pitcher. High-speed photography shows that spin rates of about 1800 rpm are the best that can be achieved. Thus, it is not humanly possible to throw a true rising fastball. With the ball spinning at 1800 rpm and traveling at 90 mph, the Magnus force retards the vertical drop by a little more than a foot. Instead of dropping 3 ft. vertically on its way to the plate, the ball drops slightly less than 2 ft. I concluded that the rising fastball is an optical illusion. The ball appears to rise only because it doesn't fall as much as the batter expects it to--in other words, the ball rises only in relation to the batter's expectations."
http://www.popularmechanics.com/scie...tml?page=2&c=y


"Even the greatest pitchers can't violate the laws of physics. Once a ball is thrown, it follows a smooth trajectory. Physics simply doesn't allow abrupt jumps in that trajectory.
So what's happening? 'The batter is using the wrong mental model,' Bahill says."
http://uanews.org/cgi-bin/WebObjects...ArticleID=1109