Ineligible Pitchers Protest--Ruling Help

jpshaughnessy · #1 (**permalink**) Thu May 24, 2001, 01:08pm

Situation: 10-year-old Little League game on Saturday, Jays had played Friday night and were the home team on Saturday against A's. A's coaches saw pitcher for Jays warming up before the game and realized he had pitched the night before and was ineligible so they informed the Jays' coaches. Volunteer umpire has no clue on rule and defers to the coaches to sort it out. Jays coaches insist that one day of rest rule only applies to 11/12 year old division despite being shown LL rule book and Local rule sheet for 10-year-old division which repeats Regulation VI (b) about pitchers needing at least one day of rest. Game is played under protest by A's. Jays, using three pitchers all of whom had pitched the night before, win 8-4.
Question from BOD member (me): Is the protest committee limited under Rule 4.19(f) to simply playing the game over from the first pitch since the starting Jays pitcher (and all subsequent pitchers) were ineligible? And can they mandate a replay game from the start that prohibits the Jays from using the three ineligible pitchers so as not to allow "gaming " the protest rule to set up your rotation for the replay game? Finally, since the Jays coaches ignored the A's coaches warning and knowingly pitched the three is the Protest Committee allowed to declare a Jays forfeit?

Rich Ives · #2 (**permalink**) Thu May 24, 2001, 01:33pm

Idiot City!

Strictly speaking, you are limited to ordering a replay per 4.19.

Per Reg VI, pitching eligibility is per week. Rest is always required. If the game is replayed later, and the pitchers are eligible at the time the game is replayed, you will have to let them pitch or be subject to another protest.

You are free to dicipline the manager as you see fit, the umpire crew that allowed it to happen, as well as whoever it was that scheduled games on back-to-back days.

I'd be really nasty to the manager and umpires because the very first sentence in Reg VI "This regulation applies only to the Little League (Majors) Division AND MINOR LEAGUE [emphasis added]." For them to state otherwise is asinine and totally irresponsible.

You also need to tell your scheduler to not schedule a team's games on back-to-back days due to pitching regulations.

Rog · #3 (**permalink**) Thu May 24, 2001, 05:44pm

The manager used "THREE" ineligible pitcher's!
As a board member I'd request his resignation pronto.....

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Ives
Idiot City!

Strictly speaking, you are limited to ordering a replay per 4.19.

Per Reg VI, pitching eligibility is per week. Rest is always required. If the game is replayed later, and the pitchers are eligible at the time the game is replayed, you will have to let them pitch or be subject to another protest.

You are free to dicipline the manager as you see fit, the umpire crew that allowed it to happen, as well as whoever it was that scheduled games on back-to-back days.

I'd be really nasty to the manager and umpires because the very first sentence in Reg VI "This regulation applies only to the Little League (Majors) Division AND MINOR LEAGUE [emphasis added]." For them to state otherwise is asinine and totally irresponsible.

You also need to tell your scheduler to not schedule a team's games on back-to-back days due to pitching regulations.

bluezebra · #4 (**permalink**) Thu May 24, 2001, 11:39pm

"I'd be really nasty to the manager and umpires because the very first sentence"

It's not the umpires job to rule on eligible or ineligible pitchers, UNLESS they have valid information, such as having worked the game the night before, or there is a league official scorebook available. An umpire should not take the word of a coach that opposing pitchers are ineligible. Let the BOD make these decisions.

Bob

#5 (**permalink**) Fri May 25, 2001, 05:38am

Why in the world would anybody even try to think that rest rules would apply to Majors and not to Minors. If anything I would more inclined to rest the younger guys. If he pitched the three guys the night before he had to understand that they couldn't pitch the next night. I would lean toward sitting the coach several games for blatantly ignoring safety rules. This sounds like a win at all costs manager and he needs to understand that that's not the purpose of Minor's.

Rich Ives · #6 (**permalink**) Fri May 25, 2001, 11:26am

Bob - I understand your point, but consider the following:

Per LL 4.19(d), use of on inelligible pitcher is a protest situation. This, per 4.19)c), automatically causes the umpire to become involved. In this case, where the violating manager admitted it and plead that the regulation should not apply, the umpires should have checked the regulation and made a ruling.

Also, per LL 4.19(f) Note 2:, the umpire is one of the officials specifically charged with preventing the infraction if possible.

joemoore · #7 (**permalink**) Sat May 26, 2001, 07:58pm

When I scheduled umpires, we had an all volunteer staff. For minors, we had guys who were not fluent in the rules and all we asked was to call balls strikes and outs. I also made the game schedules and usually each team had a Friday/Saturday tandem games 2 or 3 times per year. Each team has 12 players and all players are eligible to pitch.

Half of me is thinking, the coach is an idiot and should be fired and half of me is saying, the coach is an idiot and just didn't understand the rules. Some coaches think they only need rest with over 3 innings pitched. The kids had only pitched 2 innings each and while it is against the rules, it isn't like he pitched a kid 12 innings in 2 days.

I think the minor league option to force protests to be resolved before the next pitch should be in force. Since the umpire allowed the pitcher, protest does not apply. If you don't have this option officially in place put it in place.

As big an idiot as this guy is, he had a team of kids who played well enough to win the game. Taking a win away from these kids is wrong. The team should not be punished, the manager deserves to be punished. Hold a special meeting, listen to the idiot's story to see just what kind of idiot he is and then give him a 1-5 game suspension.

Rog · #8 (**permalink**) Sat May 26, 2001, 08:16pm

This is why the "local boards" need to be more informed
of officiating requirements, and game rules, since they know
that most of their umpire's are just hackers when it comes to officiating.....jmo

Quote:

Originally posted by joemoore
When I scheduled umpires, we had an all volunteer staff. For minors, we had guys who were not fluent in the rules and all we asked was to call balls strikes and outs. I also made the game schedules and usually each team had a Friday/Saturday tandem games 2 or 3 times per year. Each team has 12 players and all players are eligible to pitch.

Half of me is thinking, the coach is an idiot and should be fired and half of me is saying, the coach is an idiot and just didn't understand the rules. Some coaches think they only need rest with over 3 innings pitched. The kids had only pitched 2 innings each and while it is against the rules, it isn't like he pitched a kid 12 innings in 2 days.

I think the minor league option to force protests to be resolved before the next pitch should be in force. Since the umpire allowed the pitcher, protest does not apply. If you don't have this option officially in place put it in place.

As big an idiot as this guy is, he had a team of kids who played well enough to win the game. Taking a win away from these kids is wrong. The team should not be punished, the manager deserves to be punished. Hold a special meeting, listen to the idiot's story to see just what kind of idiot he is and then give him a 1-5 game suspension.

Rich Ives · #9 (**permalink**) Sat May 26, 2001, 10:45pm

The "minor league protest before the next pitch" rule is something a local league is permitted to adopt, but is not part of the basic rules.

Scheduling back-to-back days just forces a manager to overuse a pitcher Friday because he knows he needs to save someone for Saturday. It's a bad practice.

bluezebra · #10 (**permalink**) Sun May 27, 2001, 10:36am

Rich:

I saw nothing in the original post where the offending manager admitted anything. He was just misquoting the rules. These leagues use volunteer umps who don't have a clue, they hardly know the strike zone, and they're expected to know the rules. In many leagues they're not even given any decent training. The leagues my sons and grandsons played in had official scorebooks kept at the field. It was easy to check on eligibility. The Jays manager sounds like one of those win-at-all-costs morons who shouldn't be working with youth.

Bob

#11 (**permalink**) Sun May 27, 2001, 11:04am

Bob:

Situation: 10-year-old Little League game on Saturday, Jays had played Friday night and were the home team on Saturday against A's. A's coaches saw pitcher for Jays warming up before the game and realized he had pitched the night before and was ineligible so they informed the Jays' coaches. Volunteer umpire has no clue on rule and defers to the coaches to sort it out. Jays coaches insist that one day of rest rule only applies to 11/12 year old division despite being shown LL rule book and Local rule sheet for 10-year-old division which repeats Regulation VI(b) about pitchers needing at least one day of rest. Game is played under protest by A's. Jays, using three pitchers all of whom had pitched the night before, win 8-4.

It sounds like the the offending manager was shown the rule and admitted the pitchers pitched the night before and said it didn't apply to Minors only Majors. The ump said he didn't have a clue and for the managers to hash it out. If it was protested I say uphold it and replay.

The problem with that is depending on when the re-schedule is the pitchers that pitched before could again if they have eligibility left.

joemoore · #12 (**permalink**) Mon May 28, 2001, 10:39am

If it was protested I say uphold it and replay.

The problem with that is depending on when the re-schedule is the pitchers that pitched before could again if they have eligibility left.

The problem with that is that the players who played the game are 10. The team that won the game are being penalized on a technicality. That's why minors should adopt the option to disallow protests to replay games. Why penalize the players who won?

Penalize the manager. There is no problem with that.