Does run count? Was it a force?

[Brian R]

This situation happened in my boy's minor league game recently and I am hearing varying interpretations. Bases were loaded with 2 outs. The batter hit a grounder at the 3rd baseman who fielded going to his left and opted to make the tag on the runner coming from 2nd. The runner however stopped midway and retreated toward 2nd base momentarily before finally being tagged out in the base path. Given this delay before the tag the coach of the hitting team immediately pleads that the runner had crossed home plate before the out was made. They disputed this for some time before finally making the call that the run would count. In my opinion there is no way that this run should have counted because no run can be scored as the result of a 3rd out being made by way of a force. Their interpretation was however that it was not a force because the play was made on the runner and not a tag of the base. I think this argument holds no merit and I have even found one explanation on a similar message board supporting my opinion. However one of the coaches says that there were phone calls made after the game and that at least one source supported the ruling (run counting). Are there any rules for different levels of play that could support a ruling that the run would count? This play ended up tying the score in the last inning and then ended due to time limits so it has a very immediate impact which I do not want to happen again in the future. I do not want to use this answer to chastise anyone (the umpires are young teenagers) but merely want to supply them with a concrete interpretation for the future.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Brian R
This situation happened in my boy's minor league game recently and I am hearing varying interpretations.

(snip)

I do not want to use this answer to chastise anyone (the umpires are young teenagers) but merely want to supply them with a concrete interpretation for the future.

Have the umpires read 2.00 FORCE OUT. Note that it's the action of a batter becoming a runner that leads to a force out. On a force out, you can tag the bag or tag the runner -- it's still a force out.

[Gre144]

Originally posted by Brian R
This situation happened in my boy's minor league game recently and I am hearing varying interpretations. Bases were loaded with 2 outs. The batter hit a grounder at the 3rd baseman who fielded going to his left and opted to make the tag on the runner coming from 2nd. The runner however stopped midway and retreated toward 2nd base momentarily before finally being tagged out in the base path. Given this delay before the tag the coach of the hitting team immediately pleads that the runner had crossed home plate before the out was made. They disputed this for some time before finally making the call that the run would count. In my opinion there is no way that this run should have counted because no run can be scored as the result of a 3rd out being made by way of a force. Their interpretation was however that it was not a force because the play was made on the runner and not a tag of the base. I think this argument holds no merit and I have even found one explanation on a similar message board supporting my opinion. However one of the coaches says that there were phone calls made after the game and that at least one source supported the ruling (run counting). Are there any rules for different levels of play that could support a ruling that the run would count? This play ended up tying the score in the last inning and then ended due to time limits so it has a very immediate impact which I do not want to happen again in the future. I do not want to use this answer to chastise anyone (the umpires are young teenagers) but merely want to supply them with a concrete interpretation for the future.

I think they blew the call. The runner was forced to go to third base and he was put out. Runs cannot score on a third out made on a force play. I agree with Bob.

[joemoore]

Note also, that with runners on second and third 1 out, batter flies out. Runner on third tags and scores. After he scores, defense throws to second to get runner for not tagging up. The third out is NOT a force out, it is an appeal. Run counts.

[Thane Yennie]

Heck man even with bases loaded, 1 out and a sac fly, with R3 tagging and scoring, before R1 is tagged out advancing to 2B, the run still scores. Once the B/R is put out (fly ball caught) the force is removed therefore the initial three baserunners are no longer forced to vacate their base.
Thane

[Gre144]

Originally posted by joemoore
Note also, that with runners on second and third 1 out, batter flies out. Runner on third tags and scores. After he scores, defense throws to second to get runner for not tagging up. The third out is NOT a force out, it is an appeal. Run counts.

I'm glad you brought this up. I had a play like this about 1 month ago and I wasn't sure what do. But now I know that you can only be forced to an advancing base not to a returning base.

Greg

[Edited by Gre144 on May 17th, 2001 at 07:09 PM]