American Legion Rules.

R1 steals on the pitch. R1 comes into the base standing up and makes contact with F6, who is straddling the bag awaiting the throw. The contact came before the ball got to the base and the contact caused F6 to not be able to field the ball. The ball then rolls into center feild. The contact was neither hard nor malicious, but it was significant enough to cause F6 to misplay the ball.

Is this a violation of the slide rule? Is this interference? Would the ruling be different playing under NFHS rules?

I've heard several different opinions on this from different umpires in my association and I would like to hear what you guys think.

Thanks!

bossman72

Boss,

If F6 is blocking the base without the ball, he is not entitled to protection under the interference rule. He would have to be in the act of fielding the ball in order to call interference. This is a judgment call. If he is reaching for the ball at the time of contact, a case for interference could be made, if the interference is judged to be intentional. The fielder has no right to block a base without the ball. The base belongs to the runner if the fielder is just standing there and the ball isn't immediately being fielded. If contact is made, and say, the ball is just passing the pitcher, F6 has more than likely obstructed the base runner.

There is no "must slide" rule. It is usually refered to as "slide or avoid." In Fed, the runner is never required to slide, but if he does slide, it must be a legal slide.

[Edited by SanDiegoSteve on Nov 19th, 2005 at 01:31 AM]

boss,

Could there be a possibility that some of the guys your debating this with are trying to apply the force play slide rule?

Tim.

I'm can't not speak for other sections or districts however, I believe this year American Legion went with the NCAA obstrction rule. In addition to the NFHS slide rule. Simply put, No Ball, you can't be there. Being in the act of receiving the ball is not applicable. Runner awarded base.

Now, malicious contact could still affect the game status of the runner, regardless.

The problem I had this year was not working with enough officials that unserstood the NCAA rule. I made this twice during the season and sure enough, the first reply was, no body else makes that call.??????

Don't have my books in front of me however, I belive that was the basic understanding of the NCAA obstruction ruling.

I went to ask.com and did a search for American Legion rules. They use the NCAA collision rule - that the fielder must have the ball to legally be in the basebath blocking the base.
If a collision occurs, the umpire must judge if it was avoidable or unavoidable, and if the runner was deliberately trying to dislodge the ball. If the collision was unavoidable, the umpire must judge if it was flagrant. Then he rules accordingly.
In the case posted, since the fielder did not have the ball when the contact occured, and the contact was not flagrant, it sounds like a "no call" UNLESS you judge it to be obstruction - IF the runner was safe at second and THEN the contact occured, and argument could be made that he was obstructed between second and third. Whole new can of worms!

JJ

1) F6 is not blocking the bag, he is straddling it awaiting a throw. I am assuming he is straddling it such that the base can be reached by R1 since I can't picture F6 straddling the bag with his left foot in the baseline between 1st and 2nd since he would be facing 3rd and in no position to make a tag. Therefore no obstruction regardless of whether he has the ball.

2) NCAA has a collision rule that allows some contact with a fielder. NCAA and FED both have a FPSR. American Legion plays the NCAA collision rule and the FPSR. In this case R1 was stealing so there is no FPSR to call. There is no "must slide" rule in either. This rule is generally a league added rule in the lowest levels of baseball (ie 60 foot bases).

3) Interference on a thrown ball needs to be based on an intentional act.

4) Contact with F6 on a throw from F2 with R1 stealing happens often, and sometimes the ball ends up in center field. I have never called, or seen it called obstruction, and awarded R1 3rd base. I have also never called interference, unless R1 did something intentional looking to prevent F6 from catching the ball or completing a tag.

Nothing happened in this post that would cause a call to be made, that I can see.

The entire base belongs to the baserunner, including the air space above it. If the fielder is straddling the base without the ball, and alters the path of the runner in any way, it is obstruction. F6 doesn't necessarily have to be blocking the ground between 1st and 2nd, in order to have obstruction. Let's say R1 is stealing, but it's a passed ball, and F6 is straddling the base. R1 wants to continue on to 3B, but has to slow down, or bumps into F6, as he is trying to touch 2B on his way to 3rd. That would clearly be obstruction, right? Any alteration of the runners progress is obstruction. In OBR, there is wiggle room if the fielder is in the act of receiving the throw, but not under NCAA rules, which are apparently being used by Legion ball.

As far as I know, it would only be an illegal slide and therefore interference if he made contact with the fielder beyond the bag or if it was a pop-up slide (if that is illegal in legion, i'm not sure)...without the ball however, it would appear that the runners slide was legal. He does have the right to the base as Steve pointed out. I have a board meeting on monday and I'll ask some of the senior guys about it and see what they say and get back to you.

JP

Cite a reference please, because this is the first time I have heard that the entire bag, including the air above it belongs to the runner. Let's take the original situation before we tackle your new case. R1 is stealling so his intent is not go to 3b. If the ball gets by F6 and into CF and contact is made at 2B you "could: rule obstruction, if you think the contact prevented the runner from making it to 3B. But I don't know too many runners who would attempt 3b on the play with our without contact, and fewere umpires who would "award" 3b on this play. Now, for your new play, the ball gets by F2, F6 is stradding the bag diagonally such that half the bag is available for the runner to touch on his way to 3b, but he hesitates at 2b and then is thrown out at 3b (logical conclusion whether he hesitated or not). You will award 3b due to your "sky theory"? Let me give another play, R1, and pitcher tries to pick him off. 1B man has his right foot on the corner of the bag nearest the pitcher (RH 1b man), R1 slides back head first with his right hand sliding into F3's foot. Although he had more than 3/4 of the bag he could have dived back to, he dives back to the 1/4 he can't reach due to F3's foot. So you award him 2B due to your "sky theory"?

If the base is easily touchable, it's not obstructed.


[Edited by DG on Nov 19th, 2005 at 04:39 PM]

Let me address the so-called 'sky theory' first. I remember this from a film we watched in class on interference and obstruction one time. I do not have a reference to cite on the subject.

In the original situation, I already gave my opinion, that if F6 was not in the act of fielding the throw, that it would be obstruction. Then we were informed that Legion rules used the NCAA interpretation, that F6 can't block the base without actual possesion of the ball.

Then for my example, I stand by my answer. F6 better move his a$$, or if he even causes the runner to twich funny, I will have obstruction. Standing over the base, blocking any part of it without the ball, runs the risk of causing obstruction. If it did not delay the runner's progress, then no obstruction would be called. There is no 1/2 or 3/4 of the base determination. If there is sufficient room for the runner to touch the base, without causing deviation from his path, then fine. Nowhere in the these first two situations is the mention of how F6 was positioned, just that he was straddling.

In your example, if F3 is blocking any part of the base without the ball, he is obstructing. If he has the ball, fine it is his base to block at that point. I won't award 2nd on this kind of obstruction. We are told to award the base he was going back to when obstructed, so he gets first, but he doesn't get picked off. OBR rules. In Fed, the obstructed runner is awarded at least one base past the last base touched. It also has to be very blatant in this case for me to call.

After re-reading this situation, I see some things I originally missed.

1. The runner is stealing and comes in standing up.
2. Fielder is straddling the bag.
3. Runner runs into Fielder at the same place he is trying to catch the ball.

Answer:

1.This has nothing to do with the FPSL. It is a steal.
Nor the NCAA obstruction rule.

2. It can only be interference, if the runner purposely interferes with the fielder catching the ball.

3. For what took place, nothing would be different under NFHS, LL, OBR, NCAA or ay other league that writes baseball rules.

obstruction is not the issue here.

this is more of a "slide or avoid" rule question. I think i found the answer in the legion rules:

E. Collision Rule. The intent of this rule is to encourage base runners and defensive players to avoid collisions whenever possible.
1. When there is a collision between a runner and a fielder who clearly is in possession of the ball, the umpire shall judge: a) Whether the collision by the runner was avoidable (could the runner have reached the base without colliding) or unavoidable (the runner’s path to the base was blocked) or b) Whether the runner was actually attempting to reach the base (plate) or was he attempting to dislodge the ball from the fielder.
PENALTY - If the runner, a) could have avoided the collision and reached the base, or b) attempted to dislodge the ball, the runner shall be declared out, even if the fielder loses possession of the ball. The ball is dead and all base runners shall return to the last base touched at the time of the interference.
Ruling 1: - If the fielder blocks the path of the base runner to the base (plate), the runner may make contact, slide into, or collide with a fielder as long as the runner is making a legitimate attempt to reach the base or plate.
Ruling 2: - If the collision by the runner was flagrant, the runner shall be declared out and ejected from the contest. The ball shall be declared dead.


The rule states the fielder has to be in clear posession of the ball for this to take effect, which pretty much answers my question.

*****

NOW, if this exact same type of collision happened on a force play, i'm assuming the runner would be in violation of the FPSR and would be declared out along with the BR, correct?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by SanDiegoSteve
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by DG
[B]Cite a reference please, because this is the first time I have heard that the entire bag, including the air above it belongs to the runner. Let's take the original situation before we tackle your new case. R1 is stealling so his intent is not go to 3b. If the ball gets by F6 and into CF and contact is made at 2B you "could: rule obstruction, if you think the contact prevented the runner from making it to 3B. But I don't know too many runners who would attempt 3b on the play with our without contact, and fewere umpires who would "award" 3b on this play. Now, for your new play, the ball gets by F2, F6 is stradding the bag diagonally such that half the bag is available for the runner to touch on his way to 3b, but he hesitates at 2b and then is thrown out at 3b (logical conclusion whether he hesitated or not). You will award 3b due to your "sky theory"? Let me give another play, R1, and pitcher tries to pick him off. 1B man has his right foot on the corner of the bag nearest the pitcher (RH 1b man), R1 slides back head first with his right hand sliding into F3's foot. Although he had more than 3/4 of the bag he could have dived back to, he dives back to the 1/4 he can't reach due to F3's foot. So you award him 2B due to your "sky theory"?

If the base is easily touchable, it's not obstructed.

[Edited by DG on Nov 19th, 2005 at 08:40 PM]

The more I look at the original play, the more I believe in this case, it's nothin', honey. Bad luck for F6, no obstruction on R1 either.

The original question is NOT A SLIDE OR AVOID RULE question.

Its Nothing. The answer you found has NOTHING to do with this play. It is about a fielder that has possesion of the ball.

Now if this happened on a force play, you MAY have a violation, if you judged the runner interfered with the catch. Otherwise you have two people showing at the same spot on the field and it is , what it is.

You WILL have a violation. FPSR requires the runner to slide legally or avoid the fielder on a force play, which he did neither. Double play under FPSR.

This may be straight forward if the F6 had received the ball and is in the act of throwing, but remember that didn't happen here. Both players were at the bag at the same time and the fielder was waiting to receive the throw.

I would most likely have to see this, before I WOULD flat out say it was a violation.

The runner does not slide or avoid, ie he went in standing up and made contact with F6, that's textbook FPSR, if force was in effect.

[Edited by DG on Nov 20th, 2005 at 03:47 PM]

I did, and I will stiil stick with my original statement, I would most likely have to see this, before I WOULD flat out say it was a violation.

I did, and I will stiil stick with my original statement, I would most likely have to see this, before I WOULD flat out say it was a violation. [/B][/QUOTE]R1 does not even have to touch F6. If F6 is at the bag to receive a force throw and R1 comes in standing up, then FPSR results in 2 outs. If F6 has already made the catch and is 5 feet from the bag toward LF to make the throw to 1b, then you might get by with not calling FPSR if R1 is coming into 2B standing up, since he is "avoiding". Slide or avoid, that's the choices.

[Edited by DG on Nov 20th, 2005 at 10:22 PM]

R1 does not even have to touch F6. If F6 is at the bag to receive a force throw and R1 comes in standing up, then FPSR results in 2 outs. If F6 has already made the catch and is 5 feet from the bag toward LF to make the throw to 1b, then you might get by with not calling FPSR if R1 is coming into 2B standing up, since he is "avoiding". Slide or avoid, that's the choices.

[Edited by DG on Nov 20th, 2005 at 10:22 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]

Your serious right?

R1 gets to the bag before F6 even gets the ball and your calling him out on the FPSR because he is not sliding. I'm not sure what your reading here. But that was the play.

I could agree with you if F6 received the ball and R1 comes in standing up directly to the bag.

But I guess you have your own style?????

The timing of everything that occurs here is key, IMHO. Runner gets to the base and contacts the fielder waiting for the ball. A runner on his base is protected from all but intentional interference. The fielder can not be in a position to cause contact without the ball. That's NCAA obstruction, also a delayed dead ball.

Soooo, we are going to award the runner second base. Big whup (unless the ball goes off into a gap and the runner could have reached third).

In NFHS, the fielder could be judged to be in the immediate act of fielding the throw. The runner and fielder are both where they need to be and the runner got there first. I've got nothing if the runner stays there and, potentially, obstruction (with an award of third base) if the ball goes into CF and the runner gets tied up trying to reach third.

"R1 moving on the pitch; B1 hist to the shortstop, who tries - not in time - for the out at second. The second baseman throws the ball to first, after which R1 pops-up on teh base, jostling the fielder. Ruling: Though the contact occurred after the throw and did not alter the play, it resulted from an illegal slide: Both R1 and B1 are out."

Coming in standing up is not a legal slide for FPSR. Slide or avoid, these are legal. Pop-up slide is not legal either.

You apparently don't call the FPSR according to rule, but according to your own mis-interpretation. You may not like the rule, but it is the rule.

DG your popup example may be good for proving YOUR point however, it has nothing to do with this situation.

Coming in standing up is not a legal or illegal slide, in fact it is not a slide at all. But it is allowed. See 8.4.2b note. "runners are never required to slide". And the runner must get to the bag, in order to be safe.

So if the runner legally goes to the bag standing up and the fielder is unable to catch a throw because of it, I'm not punishing R1 unless he intentionally interfers with that catch. I suppose you would call a DP if the ball hit the runner who is standing on the bag along with the fielder, also.

It is apparent, that you OVERcall the FPSR because of some interpretation, only you understand. Stick with the play at hand and quit trying to just win a discussion.

the runner contacted the fielder who's trying to field the ball for the DP by going into the base standing up.... sounds like a FPSR violation to me.... you can't interfere with the pivot man catching or throwing the ball...

It is quite evident here that many of you just plainly , can't read.

I will stiil stick with my original statement, I would most likely have to see this, before I WOULD flat out say it was a violation.

check out this video posted by the NCAA. The last segment shows proper inforcement of the FPSR.

http://web1.ncaa.org/web_video/baseb...5/20050513.wmv

Bossman, was your play similar to this??

1. I won't disagree that this is interference. He clearly interfered with the fielder while arriving at the bag the same time the fielder did and the ball

2. In our play the fielder was straddling the bag waiting for the throw.

Once again, I think it's probably the fifth time, I will still stick with my original statement, I would most likely have to see this, before I WOULD flat out say it was a violation.

Most F6 will straddle the bag waiting for a throw from F2 on a steal. I don't know why you expect him not to do so. The FPSR says he must slide or avoid.

From the American Legion Rules book;

"Clarification 1 If a runner goes into a base standing up and does not make contact or alter the play of the defensive player, interference shall not be called"

In the case at hand the runner did contact F6 and did alter the play. Had this been a force situation (the original post was not) then it's a textbook FPSR situation. Stand by your original interpretation and take the heat you are sure to get. You clearly don't understand FPSR.

Dear Mr. Expert

Bite Me

I like your explanation prior to this post, although this one was funny.

You would have to see it in order to give a proper ruling. No hedging, just the simple fact that we know it when we see it. That was well put and covers everything from "Safes" to "Balks". There are too many surprises on the field and often not enough information in written form.
Nice call!

This is my last post on this subjeet to you. You obviously don't get it, and will not admit that your interpretation is in error. Did you watch the NCAA video to which you responded? Obviously not. The ruling was that the runner went in standing, and made contact with the fielder, an obvious violation of FPSR.

Stick to games that don't use NCAA, FED, or American Legion rules and you should have no problem with your FPSR interpretation.

Oh yea, the video was so dam clear, (which I agreed to), that the official on the field got it wrong.

What interpretation that I would have to see it before I call it. Or maybe I should be like Mr NOITALL and call it from the stands.

Been there , done that son, grow up.

j-ice,

Can I borrow this sometime?

I must admit, I haven't worked Legion baseball in several years now, since our association somehow lost that contract too. They used to play by OBR when I did their games. When did they adopt a rule book of their own? Can I obtain a copy through the American Legion? I'm a VFW man myself.

American Legion still use OBR and like PONY and some other organizations has a short booklet of added rules, most of which are administrative in nature.

Maybe they wanted umpires who knew their rules.

http://www.baseball.legion.org/alb_rules.htm

Gotta learn to surf...

[Edited by DG on Nov 21st, 2005 at 07:10 PM]

American Legion wants there games to be called as much by the OBR book as possible with the exception of the FPSR which is by NFHS rules, (almost I think), and this past year it incorporated the NCAA Obstruction rule. Not the NCAA FPSR. Which some here want to believe.

Thanks large, that's pretty much what the play looks like, only the ball arrives after the collision and the fielder misses the ball.

Wouldn't matter to DG, he would call two outs no matter what happened. ITS TEXTBOOK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

jicecone,

Is there a difference between the NCAA and FED FPSR's? I thought they were pretty much the same thing...

And they are, the differences I am aware of deals with contact necessary for Fed. Whereas NCAA also deals with the intent to make contact.

Also in fed if R1 beats the throw, and the umpire believes that the fielder can not complete the double play, B1 is not automatically out, as in NCAA. Similar to OBR.

Now, in this case because as it was stated, "the ball arrives after the collision" I said that I would have to have seen this before I was convinced there was a violation.

But DG, (and this is his perogative), who knows everything there ever was written about the FPSR, feels differently.

So thats were we stand.

Very similar. See BRD item 320 for subtle differences. In both, a runner must slide or avoid a fielder receiving a throw, and in neither could a runner come in standing and make contact with a fielder.

This might be a help. The Legion rule is copied, word for word, from the NCAA rulebook.

The NCAA is far stricter than the FED about sliding, etc.

You figure it out.

?????
 

Nobody needs a FPSR definition because...

WE DON'T HAVE A FORCE PLAY!

P.S. Collision rule, we need.

D-Man,

Was that your best Yoda impersonation?


Collision, bad it is....hmmmmmm....


Hmmm....Is trainwreck Yoda says....

Play on, they must....hmmmmm....

http://www.officialforum.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Tim.

Re: ?????
 

If you will go to the last post on the first page you will see that the FPSR subject was opened for discussion "Now if this happened on a force play" and the discussion every since has been about FPSR.